Battery lost a cell. Desulfating or refurbishment possible?

[masseyfarm]

Originally Posted by Keyair

Ok, absorbing all this info slightly better than my bad battery absorbs charge!

Originally Posted by Keyair

So, here is a question...

I have about $300 in Costco credits.
Marine Deep Cycles cost $68 each.
Golf Cart 6V are $78 each.
I cant find the specs on either online and didnt write them down...

What is the best way to go?

Are these batteries a gel type, or lead acid????

Dave

[Shacksman]

If you use 2 - 12 volt and 1 goes bad you can carry on. If you use 2 - 6 volts and 1 goes bad you are stuck till you get a replacement.

[lewster]

Originally Posted by masseyfarm

Are these batteries a gel type, or lead acid????

Dave

FYI, there are no more 'gel type' batteries. There are liquid lead acid, sealed lead acid 'maintenance free' and AGM (absorbed glass mat). Gels were the first attempt at getting away from liquid acid and they had many problems like their charging and vibration sensitivity and dead spots on the plates from the gel detaching. AGMs, while the most expensive, are also the premium battery currently on the market.

Lifeline AGM batteries have a factory 5 year warranty, and I have many customers with Lifelines at 5 and 6 years that are running strong in large motor homes. Proper charging and usage patterns are key to battery longevity for any type of deep cycle battery installation. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

[overlander63]

There are two major types of battery failures: "open" and "short". "Open" is also called "interwall open" because of of the internal connections to that cell is no longer conducting properly. "Shorted" is not really an absolute short, if it was, you'd catch your motor home on fire. An "open" will not be able to carry a significant load, and a "short" will carry a very low load, but the voltage will slowly rise slightly while under load. The "shorted" cell will bubble under load, the "open" cell will just sit there looking at you.
Now, I would replace the bottom of the battery compartment as it is, you really don't want anything hanging down further than it has to be. I'd also stay with the group 24's. If you remove the cover to the storage compartment in the rear of the battery compartment, you will have just enough room for two more group 24 batteries in that area, doubling your capacity without losing space, or making major modifications. Obviously, if budget is a consideration, that can be down the road. The main reason I would recommend sticking with 12 volt batteries is, as has been stated above, you lose a single battery, and it's a 6v in series, you're done until you get a replacement. Most Big Box stores, and most auto parts stores as well, don't carry golf cart batteries. They do carry 12 volt marine/deep cycle batteries. If you have a failure with 12 volt batteries, you can go to the store, get replacements, and get back to camping. With 6 volt, you pack up and go home.

[Keyair]

Good point Shacksman.
I was tired when I posted that last night, so I didn't clarify.
I was thinking 4 X 6V's, =$312 plus tax and core.
Or 5 x 12V = $340 plus Tax and core.
From my measurements, I can fit 6 X 6V in no problem, but as you must add in pairs thats $160 more.
6 X 12V might be tight space wise as they have a larger footprint, which is why I thought 5.
I think Costco charges a $9 core on each Battery.

Weight wise, I think my 500lb drawer slides would be ok.
I am using 70lb per battery as a reference.

[masseyfarm]

Originally Posted by lewster

FYI, there are no more 'gel type' batteries. There are liquid lead acid, sealed lead acid 'maintenance free' and AGM (absorbed glass mat). Gels were the first attempt at getting away from liquid acid and they had many problems like their charging and vibration sensitivity and dead spots on the plates from the gel detaching. AGMs, while the most expensive, are also the premium battery currently on the market.

Originally Posted by lewster

Lifeline AGM batteries have a factory 5 year warranty, and I have many customers with Lifelines at 5 and 6 years that are running strong in large motor homes. Proper charging and usage patterns are key to battery longevity for any type of deep cycle battery installation. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Lew:
Thanks for all the wisdom you have shared with us on this site.

I am, no doubt, behind the curve here on batteries. When I say "GEL" I meant AGM.

My unit has lots of room and carrying capacity, so I went with the 4 X T105"s in 2009, similar to those that had been installed by the PO. From the date on those, it appeared they had six years use, and one cell on one battery was low and slow to charge.
It was my understanding, at that time, that the alternator setting would have to be increased to properly charge AGM batteries, and I was resistant to do that, because of bulb life, electronics vulnerability, etc.
Servicing the lead acid is not a problem as I keep close watch on all systems.
Question is:
Does the Alternator setting have to be increased to properly charge AGM.
I have 3 battery banks, all lead acid. What happens when you mix AGM in the house bank, and lead acid in the other banks, when, in our case, we have a travelling unit that is not on shore power for weeks at a time. (284W solar) Also, we are pulling a toad, so that is another battery you are charging.
Dave

[Keyair]

Mmmm, looks like I was writing my reply while you guys were too!!

Lewster:
I fully understand that you get what you pay for, its just that right now I don't have $1000 for a set of batteries. I have the Costco gift card, and can add a bit to that.

Overlander:
The added tray depth is not a problem. The chassis rail is higher than the current tray bottom by an inch or so, but the engine exhaust headers are 4 to 5" below the chassis rail in the same area, and on the other side of the M/H the propane tank is lower than the rail too. Right behind the battery tray the step and its mechanism is lower also. I am not concenered about contact with the ground or high centering, but the tray would have a beefy tube below it to avoid problems.
Here is te best photo I can find, and you can see how bad the tray is!




I just looked at the dead battery in my garage... I think its a Group 27.
Today I will try to get back to Costco and take some measurements and specs for the 2 batteries I am looking at.

Since I live in SoCal, and most of my travels will be in the South West States.
My thought was to get as much battery capacity as I could now, and later this year add Solar panels.
My storage has no 110V, and to run the genset to charge the batteries is not a good way to go. By adding a minimum of 200 or 300 watts of Solar, the batteries will always be ready, and I dont have to run the genset unless I want the A/C on.
Does that make sense?

[masseyfarm]

Originally Posted by Keyair

Mmmm, looks like I was writing my reply while you guys were too!!

Overlander:
The added tray depth is not a problem. The chassis rail is higher than the current tray bottom by an inch or so, but the engine exhaust headers are 4 to 5" below the chassis rail in the same area, and on the other side of the M/H the propane tank is lower than the rail too. Right behind the battery tray the step and its mechanism is lower also. I am not concenered about contact with the ground or high centering, but the tray would have a beefy tube below it to avoid problems.
Here is te best photo I can find, and you can see how bad the tray is!



Keyalr:
Looks like you have room to drop the tray down.
On my CLIPPER, I have a pull out tray only for the chassis batteries, with the 4 X 6V sitting on the solid tray bottom. I do have room to use a mirror to check the water level while on the road, and, now, once a year I pull them and clean and rotate them front to back.(used to do it twice a year but found that not needed)
I painted inside my battery box with cream rock guard, and it makes it nicer to see without a flashlight.
Heat is also a killer of batteries. My exhaust also runs below and inside of battery tray. I added a manual vent as can be seen on left rear cargo door. I open it when running in hotter weather.
Dave

[Keyair]

Thanks Massey, and nice setup you have there!

Here is how my tray was loaded:


Here is the length, width, and depth again.




By my calculations the current drawer is 43" X 15" X 9".
The 15" is actually about 20", but I am restricted to where I can do the depth drop by the outer skin curve as shown here:


As you can maybe visualize, by turning Group 27s thru 90deg I gain 2" because they are approx 12" X 7", so the footprint of 2 batteries is 12" X 15" allowing for 1" between.
Looking again with my awake head on, I am limited to 5 Group 27's unless I move the Engine battery elswhere.

If I went with the GC2 6V batteries, and dropped the floor 2", I could get 6 in the tray with room to spare because the footprint is 10" X 7" x 11". Weight would become an issue tho!

I did some pricing and AGM batteries are twice the price of what I am looking at.

[masseyfarm]

If you are going to rebuild the battery tray, try to move the inside wall closer to the frame. I know cost its always a hurdle, but a nice aluminum box built close to the frame might give you more options. Don't know how those design engineers can keep their jobs, when we lowley RV owners can make so many improvements to the OEM specs.

Note: The Trojan 6V are a top post battery, so you do need the height.

Dave

[Keyair]

I feel stupid to ask this....
My current Converter is a Fortron and outputs 45A, but as its a single stage charger, and not so good, I will replace it with a 3 stage for my next step into solar...

I know I will need a Solar Charge Controller, but I guess I dont understand how this dovetails with the whole system....

I understand the generator or hookup powers the converter to output 12V, and this will charge the batteries and provide 12V output where needed.

What I dont yet understand is:
I need a 120 to 12V Converter with intelligent charging circuitry, for charging Batteries when the genset is running or using a hookup.
I need a Charge controller that has intelligent circuitry, to charge the batteries and power the 12V circuits when Solar is inputting.
Do I need both?

[Keyair]

Originally Posted by masseyfarm

If you are going to rebuild the battery tray, try to move the inside wall closer to the frame. I know cost its always a hurdle, but a nice aluminum box built close to the frame might give you more options. Don't know how those design engineers can keep their jobs, when we lowley RV owners can make so many improvements to the OEM specs.

Note: The Trojan 6V are a top post battery, so you do need the height.

Dave

Yes, I am aware of the top post issue, and plan to keep as a minimum the same istalled height at what I have. I think I will add some plastic + post covers too for safety.
I did look at pushing the rear wall of the tray back as you suggest, I could go another 2", but that brings its own set of problems with the slide outs. If I push the wall back, I dont think the rear will slide out and be clear of the body, so blocking the space. The slides I plan to use are 26" long, and support 500lb, but they will only just fit... its gonna be tight, as my measurents say that they will go all the way from the M/H chassis leg to the bodyside curve.
I have maybe 1" to play with to miss the wires running along the chassis, and I may have to move them down..

I will take some measurements tho

[masseyfarm]

Originally Posted by Keyair

I feel stupid to ask this....

Originally Posted by Keyair

My current Converter is a Fortron and outputs 45A, but as its a single stage charger, and not so good, I will replace it with a 3 stage for my next step into solar...

I know I will need a Solar Charge Controller, but I guess I dont understand how this dovetails with the whole system....

I understand the generator or hookup powers the converter to output 12V, and this will charge the batteries and provide 12V output where needed.

What I dont yet understand is:
I need a 120 to 12V Converter with intelligent charging circuitry, for charging Batteries when the genset is running or using a hookup.
I need a Charge controller that has intelligent circuitry, to charge the batteries and power the 12V circuits when Solar is inputting.
Do I need both?

This site has some good info. You are getting to technical for me. Use the left column for different information.
Charge Controllers for Solar Electric Systems
Dave

[lewster]

Keyair,

Yes, you need both! A quality solar charge controller (look at the HPV-22B from AM Solar) will have an on/off switch or standby feature that allows you to disconnect the solar charge controller from the battery bank when connected to shore power. Also, you need a quality (and I can't stress this enough) charge controller with 3 stage charging to properly maintain your batteries while being charged by your solar array.

This goes for your converter as well. Single and dual stage chargers are a sure way to fry/boil or otherwise destroy your batteries in short order unless you keep a VERY watchful eye on them. A quality 3-stage charger and AGM batteries will almost never need attention as there is no water level to check, NO CORROSION of your battery box (they DO NOT OUT-GAS when properly charged) and no maintenance. That is one of the great benefits of the price you pay for AGMs.

Also, depending on the solar panels that you choose, a properly designed solar charging system will provide a 'boost feature' to your batteries when charging. This boost in charging amperage is provided by increased output voltage from the solar panels to the controller.

Most solar panels available today range from 14-17VDC output. As an example, AM Solar has their panels custom built with 40 cells rather than the usual 36 and are set to provide over 24.8 VDC open circuit output (we call them HOT panels). The custom designed charge controllers will then utilize this excess voltage output and convert it into a boost in the charging amperage seen at the batteries.

The 400 watt (4 panel) system that I have on my service van has seen up to 28.5 amps charging the batteries at maximum sun angles. By using the toggle switch at the remote control panel of the system, the raw output of the panels before they hit the controller was just under 18 amps......a 'boost' of almost 60%. This is one of the prime features of a properly designed RV solar charging system, and one that most folks looking for 'cheap' systems never consider. Maximum charging output to the batteries for a given amount of sunlight is what solar charging systems are all about and what separates the top quality systems from all the rest!

Originally Posted by Keyair

I feel stupid to ask this....
My current Converter is a Fortron and outputs 45A, but as its a single stage charger, and not so good, I will replace it with a 3 stage for my next step into solar...

I know I will need a Solar Charge Controller, but I guess I dont understand how this dovetails with the whole system....

I understand the generator or hookup powers the converter to output 12V, and this will charge the batteries and provide 12V output where needed.

What I dont yet understand is:
I need a 120 to 12V Converter with intelligent charging circuitry, for charging Batteries when the genset is running or using a hookup.
I need a Charge controller that has intelligent circuitry, to charge the batteries and power the 12V circuits when Solar is inputting.
Do I need both?

[Keyair]

Thanks for that info Lewster. Looks like good stuff, and the cool thing I like is the basic kit with an an upgrade path!

You know what seems odd to me?
That you need 2 seperate chargers.
Why can't you use the solar charger to charge the batteries, and input the Converter voltage into that too?

Massey, On the subject of the battery drawer, I was over at the AS yesterday, and did some measurements...
There is 8" between the back of the drawer and chassis rail!
Now, I need some of that for wiring, and also there is a switch mounted on the back of the drawer too, but that seems silly to have it there with exposure to the elements... I am thinking to move it all into the drawer.

[lewster]

Originally Posted by Keyair

Thanks for that info Lewster. Looks like good stuff, and the cool thing I like is the basic kit with an an upgrade path!

You know what seems odd to me?
That you need 2 seperate chargers.
Why can't you use the solar charger to charge the batteries, and input the Converter voltage into that too?

Massey, On the subject of the battery drawer, I was over at the AS yesterday, and did some measurements...
There is 8" between the back of the drawer and chassis rail!
Now, I need some of that for wiring, and also there is a switch mounted on the back of the drawer too, but that seems silly to have it there with exposure to the elements... I am thinking to move it all into the drawer.

Not a bad idea, but to my knowledge, such a device does not currently (no pun intended ) exist. The solar charge controller has special features that allow it to satisfy the DC to DC charging requirements of a solar array and 12VDC battery bank while a solid state converter/charger used 120VDC as input to provide 12VDC for battery charging and to power the DC circuits.

[Keyair]

Well, someone needs to make a dual input Charger!

Ok, so I just got the specs on the 2 Costco batteries I am looking at.

Marine Deep Cycle Grp 27 $68.99 each.
MCA 750
CCA 600

Golf Cart 2GCS 6V $78.99 each.
No spec on the battery, so this is what they quoted me. Now reading back, I am not sure if I got this right..
220AH @ 20A
425AH @ 25A
100AH @ 75A
63LB each.

I am leaning toward the 4 x Golf cart batteries.
So, if I connect 2 together to give me the 12V, what happens to the numbers?
Connecting 2 X 2?

[masseyfarm]

In my search to answer whether AGM's need an upgraded ALTERNATOR setting, I found the following site quoted here http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...tml#post943179

A lot of good answers in about 5 pages of info.

Dave

[DaveFL]

880 amps at 6v, 440 amps at 12v. What ever you construct don't hide the fill holes, GC batteries need watering a few times a year and it help to be able to see in the hole for the level, can be done with mirror but inconvenient.

[Keyair]

Thanks Dave!
No, I will plan the battery tray well... no hidden fillers is a priority!

From what I have read, 4 of them should be enough for me to boondock for a good few days without running the genset if I am carefull with my usage.