AGM vs. Flooded lead acid.

[Mollysdad]

Since my old Interstate gp. 24 are due for replacement, and Interstate batteries went the way of the Passenger Pigeon, (Bought by Clarion/Brookfield Canadian investment group.) I've been down the battery rabbit hole.
I want to replace my trusty Interstates with another battery, not lithium.
So, it appears the Die Hard Gold is a flooded lead acid deep cycle while the Die Hard Platinum is a AGM battery, somewhat more pricey but not off the charts. The form factor is the same Group 24 I have now.
I hear AGM's don't do well freezing, but I'm in Florida.
Can I use the AGM with my old single stage charger? (My current [/pun] batteries lasted 6 years, so I'm pretty cautious about charging. I may add a solar suitcase, no more.
The plan is to pull the old batteries and drop in the new, same "great" wiring by me.

What say you?

[Daquenzer]

Simple. I had Interstate flooded and did replace with interstate AGMs. You just need to make sure the poles will fit and are in the same place so your wire connectors work. So take a picture from the top. I had to do a bit of grinding on the wire ends since the poles on my AGMs were slightly bigger. Otherwise it was basically a drop in.

PS. If you need to grind the holes on the connectors larger, I just went to a NAPA parts place and they did it.

[Bill M.]

I would think that a 2017 Airstream would have a charger with a "float" mode. My older trailer has a replacement Boondocker converter and it works fine with AGM's. I get my AGM railer batteries from Batteries Plus now and have been happy with them. I have Diehard in my truck. But when I shopped at Advance Auto I was not sure I could even get a deep cycle Diehard. I measured and checked and was able to stick group 31 batteries in my boxes so that is what I did. The flooded cell group 24 were just not quite enough juice for our use. I think the comparison was 70 amp hours versus 105 for the new batteries

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

Since my old Interstate gp. 24 are due for replacement, and Interstate batteries went the way of the Passenger Pigeon, (Bought by Clarion/Brookfield Canadian investment group.) I've been down the battery rabbit hole.
I want to replace my trusty Interstates with another battery, not lithium.
So, it appears the Die Hard Gold is a flooded lead acid deep cycle while the Die Hard Platinum is a AGM battery, somewhat more pricey but not off the charts. The form factor is the same Group 24 I have now.
I hear AGM's don't do well freezing, but I'm in Florida.
Can I use the AGM with my old single stage charger? (My current [/pun] batteries lasted 6 years, so I'm pretty cautious about charging. I may add a solar suitcase, no more.
The plan is to pull the old batteries and drop in the new, same "great" wiring by me.

What say you?

I saw the "new"? Interstates at Costco this past week, both AGM's and flooded. Personally, having had both, I am very happy last 4 1/2 years with my Trojan 6V T105's. Better performance and reliability over everything else on past 4 AS's. Come in AGM or flooded. I have flooded and with TX and trips to/from WY/MT area each summer, I fill once a year...I do have mechanical disconnect which I flip off when staying longer than a week in one place. I do use the suitcase 80W Gopower from time to time, and maybe twice a year, drag out the Honda when boondocking, but these have been pretty bulletproof in all weather conditions so far....

[ROBERT CROSS]

Lifeline AGM...11 Seasons in 'Cloudsplitter' and still supplying emergency power for the basement sump pump.

Bob
🇺🇸

[Boxite]

WalMart 29DC (Deep Cycle) lead-acids for me. No problems…last a long time…easy to find replacements…compatible with OEM converters.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

Since my old Interstate gp. 24 are due for replacement, and Interstate batteries went the way of the Passenger Pigeon, (Bought by Clarion/Brookfield Canadian investment group.) I've been down the battery rabbit hole...

There are only a few companies in the world making automotive and deep cycle batteries. Johnson Controls (JCI) used to be one of them and Interstate was one of the brands they produced batteries for. A few years ago they spun off the battery division into a company called Clarios, which was bought by Brookfield.

A relative of mine works for JCI, and from what I'm told the battery production is still being done in the same facilities as before Clarios was spun off. Clarios is actually leasing the space at the JCI headquarters building where the battery division used to be housed and other than a new wall dividing the two different companies' spaces, not much has changed. Of course this type of thing is constantly changing across the industry, and the last I heard specifics about it was last fall.

I wouldn't be any more worried about buying a battery from Interstate now than I was before the changes. If you had good service from the lead acid battery, then just stick with it. Before I made the switch to lithium I had explored switching to AGM, but I found that the equivalent sized AGM batteries had less capacity. May not be an issue for you but it is worth double checking if capacity is an issue for dry camping and such.

What battery charger are you using that's only single stage? Regardless of which battery you go with in the end, if it is truly a single stage charger you might consider switching to one of the more modern multi-stage chargers so you don't have to micro-manage charging to keep from over charging your new batteries.

[Shiny16]

I have a brand new2023 trailer with 2 Lifeline AGMs to pickup in the next few weeks. If anyone in the NJ area is interested in two new AGMs send me a PM.

[SVTRIDE]

https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.co...teries-marine/

USA made AGM batteries...had them in several campers and trucks...Very happy with them.

[Boxite]

Mollysdad (OP)… your 2017 AS surely has a multi-stage (not single-stage) charger. AS has been installing multi-stage converters since at least the turn of the 21st century.
The only real difference between a lead-acid and AGM is the venting-method… standard lead-acid vents to atmosphere and AGM vents internally to an absorbent that condenses internally. The difference is NOT great …especially since the erly ‘90s when “standard” lead-acids became “maintenance-free” (reduced venting losses) due to case-construction. (If you are as old as me you remember when battery cells had threaded caps which required regular removal and water-replacement. Since modern charging systems (no longer DC-generator/vibrating-points-regulators) alternator w/solid-state voltage regulators have moved to integral multi-stage regulators…batteries with improved venting (semi-non-removable caps)…coupled with modern cases…do not lose water so quickly. In fact, in many cases and within expected battery-lifetimes it’s common that virtually no water need be added.
AGMs are not as delicate as often thought. Although their “sealed” vent-construction” (absorbent may hold water not-yet returned to the electrolyte) cannot tolerate freezing… neither can standard lead-acid batteries. The good news is a charged battery of either type won’t easily freeze.
(I have a mix of lead-acid and AGM batteries in my various equipment and have had excellent service from both. In-fact, I have used AGM batteries successfully in an older generator/vibrating-points system…(contrary to the chicken-littles of the battery-charger-world)… and had up to 7 years service out of each of them over the last 20+ years. They aren’t as fragile as sellers of high-tech chargers would have you believe. The key, IMO, is not to “overcharge” by charging them above 13.5 volts for long periods. (that reg is adjusted to 13 volts max, and 7-year AGM-life has been normal.)

I do have a preference for “classic” things tho’…and use flooded lead acid batts in most equipment including my AS. Five-year life is typical using a standard multi-stage charger.

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by Boxite

Mollysdad (OP)… your 2017 AS surely has a multi-stage (not single-stage) charger. AS has been installing multi-stage converters since at least the turn of the 21st century.

Now I have more research to do.
My understanding was Airstream switched to the multi-stage converter in 2018 and forward.
I don't stay plugged in when in storage, and I have a real battery disconnect the kills everything!

BTW, when I open "New Posts" these 9 didn't show up. I wonder why?
I had to do a search of my own threads and 'voila! There they are. (It's happened before.)

[gypsydad]

Not true AS pre 2018 only offered the single stage WFCO ... AS switched to a 3 stage converter in 2018. I have a 17' and had to replace mine shortly after taking delivery when my batteries went bad due to single stage converter. Many posts on this here on Forum if you go back and look. Now they include either a WFCO or Progressive Dynamics I am told...PD is 4 stage; not sure if WFCO us still 3 stage or if they offer 4 stage.

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by Boxite

Mollysdad (OP)… your 2017 AS surely has a multi-stage (not single-stage) charger. AS has been installing multi-stage converters since at least the turn of the 21st century.

From Airstream:

I have had a question or two lately concerning power converters that we install in the trailers. In our 2018 model year line up we replaced the single stage converter we have used for many years and started installing a three stage converter in all models. I will explain the three stages of charging. I will also explain the battery disconnect switch and the change that we made to this as well.

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

From Airstream:

My 2008 22’ Safari Sport left the factory with a WFCO 55 Amp 3-stage converter.

It had a circuit-board failure while camping in Colorado in 2016…and I contacted the local AS dealer and he said it was backordered…two weeks.. I ordered it from Amazon and had it delivered to the local Whole Foods Amazon drop-box the next day… almost $100 cheaper than the AS dealer.
I keep it plugged in continuously 12-months a year except when travelling.

Someone at AS is ignorant.

Here’s a copy/paste of the specs:
Brand WFCO
Model WF8955
Memory Storage Capacity 8 GB
System Bus Standard Supported SATA 2
About this item
Automatic three-stage converter/charger
Power Input: 950W
Input Voltage: 105-130 VAC/60 Hz
Output Current: 55A
Output Voltage: 13. 6 VDC (normal) / 13. 2 VDC (trickle charge) / 14. 4 VDC (bulk charge)

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by richard5933

There are only a few companies in the world making automotive and deep cycle batteries. Johnson Controls (JCI) used to be one of them and Interstate was one of the brands they produced batteries for. A few years ago they spun off the battery division into a company called Clarios, which was bought by Brookfield.

Brookfield is a Canadian investment group, not battery makers. Usually, investors want to maximize profits, not build better products.
Strangely, Johnson Controls now makes the batteries sold at WalMart and people seem happy with them.
Good luck trying to find which batteries are made in the US. You'll get promotional material like, "Acme is a world leader in batteries. It's been making batteries since 1945 when founder John Smith opened his factory in Nebraska. We now sell Acme batteries world wide."

SOME Johnson Controls batteries are made in Mexico.

I wouldn't be any more worried about buying a battery from Interstate now than I was before the changes.

The new Interstates are sold at Costco, and have a 'different' warranty. I read the reviews...1 star.

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by Boxite

Someone at AS is ignorant.

The quote I posted was from Rick March, General Manager Customer Relations Group

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...28528-9999.pdf

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

The quote I posted was from Rick March, General Manager Customer Relations Group

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...28528-9999.pdf

Thanks for posting the direct-link….because it clarifies the matter… You MIS-quoted him.
He said in that link that they changed the “battery switch” in 2018… not the converter.

He also points out what I already posted….the WFCO 8955 converter which was installed AT THE FACTORY in my 2008 AS… is a THree Stage Converter with Float-charge.

I still say there’s someone ignorant at AS…
…...because he also states in that link: “ Second, the new three stage converter that we purchase comes modified to have the battery disconnect solenoid installed in it. All single stage applications will have the battery disconnect solenoid installed in the front end of the trailer separate from the converter.”

BUT… my 2008 22’ Bambi has a separate mechanical battery switch in the front end….just like earlier AS’s… yet it was originally equipped with the 3-stage WFCO 8955.

Not being accusatory…just thanking you for letting me read the link directly.

I’d still bet that your 2017 AS has a 3-stage or 4 stage converter.

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by Boxite

….. All single stage applications will have the battery disconnect solenoid installed in the front end of the trailer separate from the converter.”
.

I should correct my criticism of folks at AS…. because I may have misunderstood that statement… “All single stage applications…”

While that comment may be true….. it does not say “ONLY single stage applications…”

Soo… a 3-stage converter installation might still have a mechanical battery switch installed up-front.

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by Boxite

Thanks for posting the direct-link….because it clarifies the matter… You MIS-quoted him.

I misquoted him? I did a Copy/Paste. The section on the Battery disconnect was much farther into the article and totally separate than the discussion of the converters. He even enclosed photos of the single stage vs. the three stage converters and the issues of swapping them.

I encourage anyone to read the link.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...28528-9999.pdf

I'll get back to my battery.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Boxite

I should correct my criticism of folks at AS…. because I may have misunderstood that statement… “All single stage applications…”

While that comment may be true….. it does not say “ONLY single stage applications…”

Soo… a 3-stage converter installation might still have a mechanical battery switch installed up-front.

This shouldn't be news? We went thru this "argument" many times several years back...all the AS converter/chargers, pre-2018, were single stage. If you owned a 2017 or earlier model, and used the "stock" converter/charger that came with your AS, it was a WFCO single stage unit. It was/is "notorious" with AS owners of those years, for "over cooking" your batteries, if you left it plugged in. I and several others I know, went thru "brand new" Interstate 12V batteries, that were OEM supplied (from AS) with new AS's back then. First set on my 2014 25' went within first month. With my 2017 28', went inside 3 months. Each time, Interstate replaced for free and told me they had bad cells from being left on charger too long with no sensitivity to state of charge.

The Multi-Stage units (I have Boondocker from Bestconverter.com) can be left plugged in, and they will charge appropriate voltages, then revert to "tend" mode; will not overcharge/over cook your batteries; I have left plugged in 4 months at my place in Austin during winter, prior to winterizing; never an issue. If you have an older AS, (pre 2018) and have not had any issues...count your blessings!