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uncle_bob · 10-22-2019, 08:13 AM

Hi

The typical charger in most modern Airstreams is rated to deliver something in the 35 to 55A range. The only way to know what's in this or that trailer is to look at the nameplate on the charger. There are simply to many "part way through the year" changes in this sort of stuff to be 100% sure about what any one trailer got.

Coming up with a charger that would deliver 1,000 A to a pair of batteries would be an exciting task. The cables and connectors would need to be rated for the current. You would need a power feed greater than what some entire houses have to supply the beast. Even at half that (500A into a single battery), not a practical thing to do.

The problem with most of the simple / low(er) cost converter / chargers is that they don't deliver the full rated current into a "typical" battery. They taper the current and you get something like 1/2 the rating as a result. ( = your 55A converter / charger delivers 30A to a pair of batteries at 12.4V on the battery terminals). Victron (and probably others at a similar price) do make ($$$$) converter chargers that will deliver 80A into a "real" battery.

Indeed, it's a spend more to get more kind of thing.

Bob

sgschwend · 10-22-2019, 11:03 AM

I have a Victron Phoenix charger in my boat. It can provide rated current up to 16VDC. I like the program-ability including the ability to charge all battery chemistry types. I program the charger by hooking it to my laptop.

Victron has a newer lower cost charger that can be monitored and program from a cell phone. The programming is more like program selection. The price is less than half of the Phoenix so purchasing and using two charger is technically possible, per Victron.

I have used the "pulse" method type charger with a temperature probe for over five years. It does provide a good charger but I would agree that it does not completely resolve the sulfate lead plate contamination. It does make the plate drop off material; I have had old batteries needing desulfation have one of the cells short out when charging this way.

ddrg · 10-22-2019, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turk123

That's great Duncan. It's good to know they support their product. Lifeline seemed genuinely interested in my problem and was very helpfull.

Thanks!

ddrg · 10-22-2019, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Indeed there are a number of outfits that will honor the "sale to you" date as the start of the warranty. Yet another good reason to keep your paperwork handy *and* to mention that date when you chat about warranty issues. Pretty much everything that goes into your RV sat in inventory for a while before the vehicle shipped out .....

Bob

Thanks Bob!

evan · 10-23-2019, 08:41 PM

I had a Lifeline battery go “bad” after a couple seasons. Wouldn’t take a charge, low voltage etc. I pulled it out and put it on my little 15 amp home charger and let it charge/desulfate cycle for a full day. The battery came back a little but was still only around 20-30% at best. In desperation I took it to a local auto battery and tire seller/installer (Les Schwab) and they threw it on their industrial size fast charger. A couple hours later they called me and said my battery was ready to go, 100% capacity restored. Explanation was the little home chargers just can’t generate the power and heat to knock all the sulfate buildup off the plates. Apparently you have to really “cook” them to break up the sulfate scale when they are badly sulfated. The battery was still quite hot to the touch when I picked it up. Charged me zero $’s. I used it for another 2 years after that. Might consider giving that a try if your having problems restoring a newer battery with a home charger.

turk123 · 10-24-2019, 07:32 AM

I talked with Airstream yesterday about the issue of the Czone being .20 lower than the multimeter and Victron. At first, he said that that was pretty close until I let him know it causes a lot of "warnings" to come up on the display.

He was not aware of that and it did make sense. If the voltage is at 12.7, Czone has it at 12.5. If you turn on a few items and lights, the real voltage drops, under load, to 2.6 or 2.55. That shows up at 2.4 or 2.35 on the Czone and immediately causes a warning. That can be with a full battery.

I let Corey know that many of us have these warnings all the time. I read him my "archive" on the app with all the warnings.

There is no way for us, the customer, to change the settings in the Czone. Airstream can do it, but not remotely. He is going to look into it. He thought it was odd.

uncle_bob · 10-25-2019, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turk123

I talked with Airstream yesterday about the issue of the Czone being .20 lower than the multimeter and Victron. At first, he said that that was pretty close until I let him know it causes a lot of "warnings" to come up on the display.

He was not aware of that and it did make sense. If the voltage is at 12.7, Czone has it at 12.5. If you turn on a few items and lights, the real voltage drops, under load, to 2.6 or 2.55. That shows up at 2.4 or 2.35 on the Czone and immediately causes a warning. That can be with a full battery.

I let Corey know that many of us have these warnings all the time. I read him my "archive" on the app with all the warnings.

There is no way for us, the customer, to change the settings in the Czone. Airstream can do it, but not remotely. He is going to look into it. He thought it was odd.

Hi

Another very practical solution would be to change the warning point to something like 12.1 or 11.8V. If they can change calibration, I'd bet they can change the alarm set points as well.

If the CZone hooks in deep in the trailer, there is a *lot* of wire between it and the battery. Turn on enough "stuff" in the trailer and you will have noticeable current in all that wire. A couple tenth's drop from that would not in any way be surprising. Yet another reason to drop the alarm setting down a bit....

Bob

turk123 · 10-25-2019, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Another very practical solution would be to change the warning point to something like 12.1 or 11.8V. If they can change calibration, I'd bet they can change the alarm set points as well.

If the CZone hooks in deep in the trailer, there is a *lot* of wire between it and the battery. Turn on enough "stuff" in the trailer and you will have noticeable current in all that wire. A couple tenth's drop from that would not in any way be surprising. Yet another reason to drop the alarm setting down a bit....

Bob

Yes, that is both mine and Cory's thinking. Dropping the alarm levels to 12v or even 11.9 would work fine. I would not mind getting an alarm at a true 12.1. You are right that the Czone is probably accurately calibrated, but all the wiring is causing a loss where it is monitored.

uncle_bob · 10-25-2019, 09:33 AM

Hi

Watching the monitor in the FireFly (yes a completely different system) you can guess what the load current is in the trailer by how low the voltage appears to be on the panel ..... A half volt is not an impossible number ....

Bob

turk123 · 10-25-2019, 10:34 PM

I just checked my batteries with my app and the voltage was at 12.24. That can't be right! The charger is hooked to the batteries and should trigger the float charge. Off I go to the trailer at 10:00 PM at night.

OK, the charger has failed. Nothing has come on and it thinks the batteries are fine. Disconnect the power, plug it back in, it charges. I am sick and tired of purely defective products like this. Why can't they get it right?

It will be going back to Amazon as we speak. Neco Chargers, no more.

uncle_bob · 10-26-2019, 06:51 AM

Hi

CTek ....

https://www.amazon.com/CTEK-56-674-A...s%2C157&sr=8-7

Or let the onboard converter / charger do it's thing. If it does not get the batteries up to charge (like keep them above 12.5 on the Victron monitor ) .... that needs to be addressed as well.

Bob

AirMiles · 10-26-2019, 07:03 AM

Uncle_Bob said: "The problem with most of the simple / low(er) cost converter / chargers is that they don't deliver the full rated current into a "typical" battery. They taper the current and you get something like 1/2 the rating as a result. ( = your 55A converter / charger delivers 30A to a pair of batteries at 12.4V on the battery terminals)."

In my testing, I've never seen a stock Airstream charger, or either of my two PD4655's, put over 15A to the batteries. Since buying my 2018 Globetrotter, I've never seen over single digit amps at the batteries.

My 2017 FC25FB converter was under the front bed, nearer to my tongue mounted batteries, and could reach double-digit amps (15A?) at the batteries. My 2018 Globetrotter queen has the converter mid-ship under the refrigerator and I've seen only single-digit amps (8A?) at the the batteries. The ONLY way I can get 30A of charging at the batteries is with my solar. I think RV converter amp ratings are pipe dreams. Maybe the voltage loss between the converter and the batteries is part of the problem. But I'm glad that I have solar to keep my batteries healthy.

I'd like to see some documentation (pictures) of converters producing 20+ amps at the batteries. I know I can't produce them, but I can produce evidence of my solar putting 30+ amps to the batteries. http://www.airforums.com/forums/atta...2&d=1568408503 I know my solar can produce enough amps at high enough voltage to charge my power hungry 6V wet cell batteries, but I doubt either of my stock converters, or even my PD4655's, would keep them healthy.

Bill M. · 10-26-2019, 07:13 AM

I think you guys just talked me out of the set of AGM's I was considering for next spring.

AirMiles · 10-26-2019, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M.

I think you guys just talked me out of the set of AGM's I was considering for next spring.

I would buy Lithium before I would buy AGM. For me, its either a pair of quality 6V golf cart batteries or Lithiums. Lithium prices are coming down and high-volume manufacturers are getting into game and lowering the prices. Renogy has an offering at $799 for 100AH. https://www.renogy.com/renogy-lithiu...12-volt-100ah/ I think Battleborn is still the best option at $949, but the prices are going in the right direction. https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...cycle-battery/

turk123 · 10-26-2019, 08:10 AM

All I ask of the Neco Genius charger was a maintenance float just to keep the batteries up while in storage. It was not the batteries (I hope) but the charger refusing to recognize the voltage dropping.

This image shows the charger's (sorry for the blur, new Iphone) charge meter with the green blinking light indicating full. Batteries were at 12.34 on Victron. As soon as I unplugged and plugged back in, it started charging again. Charged all night.

The trailer will come out of storage today and get the much needed solar. The Noco "Dunce" will take that big trip to the Amazon graveyard and end up in some auctioned off pallet of electronics. Good riddance! I usually pay attention to the reviews on Amazon. This "device" (I'm withholding the use of "charger") has horrible reviews and malfunctions all the time. The Ctek gets better reviews, but even it is not what I would call trailer safe. As far as I know, the sun will come up today and solar is truly the best wat to go.

So my choice for storing the trailer under the roof was a good choice with the tornado that went through, but not goods for solar power I needed. All is well and we resume our journey Monday morning.

uncle_bob · 10-26-2019, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirMiles

I would buy Lithium before I would buy AGM. For me, its either a pair of quality 6V golf cart batteries or Lithiums. Lithium prices are coming down and high-volume manufacturers are getting into game and lowering the prices. Renogy has an offering at $799 for 100AH. https://www.renogy.com/renogy-lithiu...12-volt-100ah/ I think Battleborn is still the best option at $949, but the prices are going in the right direction. https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop...cycle-battery/

Hi

Yup

I'd narrow it down to Trojan T-105's vs BB's pretty quickly. Indeed that's just a personal opinion. Neither one is the low price leader. Both have (for what they are) a pretty good "long term" track record. Obviously T-105's have been around way longer than any of the "internal BMS" lithiums.

Bob

Gregsch · 10-26-2019, 07:32 PM

I just read this entire thread. Almost everything in it sounds familiar. My system is similar. 200watts solar, 75 amp boondocker, 2030 charge controller with 2030 display, two 125 ah Lifelines. I tried most of the trouble shooting in this thread.
Finally I got in touch with Dave at Lifeline. He took a genuine interest in my troubles and asked a lot of questions. He thought my batteries were sulfated. He referred to a dealer in Cincinnati that had a special charger for de-sulfating batteries. They did a procedure where they applied a 25 amp load for 3 hours to drain the batteries and then they charged them back up at 15+ volts with the special charger. Worked like a charm!!!
Before, everything seemed ok while the sun was shining then 3 or 4 hours after dark voltage would drop well below 12v. Since the de-sulfacation they work like they did when they were new. Kudos to Lifeline for the excellent support of a great product.

UncleBad · 11-04-2019, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregsch

I just read this entire thread. Almost everything in it sounds familiar. My system is similar. 200watts solar, 75 amp boondocker, 2030 charge controller with 2030 display, two 125 ah Lifelines. I tried most of the trouble shooting in this thread.
Finally I got in touch with Dave at Lifeline. He took a genuine interest in my troubles and asked a lot of questions. He thought my batteries were sulfated. He referred to a dealer in Cincinnati that had a special charger for de-sulfating batteries. They did a procedure where they applied a 25 amp load for 3 hours to drain the batteries and then they charged them back up at 15+ volts with the special charger. Worked like a charm!!!
Before, everything seemed ok while the sun was shining then 3 or 4 hours after dark voltage would drop well below 12v. Since the de-sulfacation they work like they did when they were new. Kudos to Lifeline for the excellent support of a great product.

Would be interesting to know more about that special charger.

evan · 11-04-2019, 10:38 AM

Not sure what is meant by a special charger but trying to charge a badly sulfated scaled battery with a weak home charger is a waste of time and exercise in futility. Any battery shop can throw it on their 250 amp quick charger, which in many cases will break loose said scale and possibly restore the batteries ability to take a charge from your home charger. It’s simply a matter of crud power and heat. I think the bigger question is what is causing your acid battery to sulfate so badly so quickly?