Adding Inverter to AS

[steilkurve]

Hey all. Owner of a 2020 Bambi 22FB. Unit did not come with an inverter and I’m considering adding one to operate small appliances like an Nespresso coffee machine or a toaster while boondocking. Two questions:

-Thoughts on adding a permanent inverter or getting a Goal Zero Yeti 1400, which would have the added benefit of giving additional battery backup for boondocking days with less sun.

-Where is the inverter placed on the Caravel version of my 22FB? Dealer is suggesting putting it under the bed but I’d rather not add weight or loose storage space there. Could it not be around where the WFCO panel/charger is?

Thanks in advance for the info.

NP

[lsbrodsky]

A small inverter is not going to like a toaster.
Larry

[azflycaster]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

A small inverter is not going to like a toaster.
Larry

It will like a coffee maker less. Both of these are big power users. Suggest you run the numbers on what size inverter will fit your needs, the wire size needed to support this and the effect of usage based on the battery capacity you have.

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by azflycaster

It will like a coffee maker less. Both of these are big power users. Suggest you run the numbers on what size inverter will fit your needs, the wire size needed to support this and the effect of usage based on the battery capacity you have.

The Nespresso coffee maker is 1310 watts. The Goal Zero Yeti 1400 has a 15000 watt inverter with 3000 watt surge. Would that not be enough?

[GMFL]

Ok so here you go......
You will need a minimum 2000W inverter to run any of the appliances you mentioned (MINIMUM). This can easily be added to you Bambi 22. Under the bed is the BEST option due to it close proximity to your battery bank.
NOW FOR THE BAD NEWS......
To run either of those type appliances (coffee maker, toaster, blender) they will draw between 900W-1500W
So let’s do the math for both low and high numbers.

900W/12V =75A This means that your battery bank (Assuming Lead Acid/AGM group 27, not sure if you have or two but let say two. A Realistic 86AH x2=172 AHx50%= 86AH usable) would need to have a discharge rate of 1C ( 1 x capacity) to be able to power that 900watt load. Hint. With inverter loss and voltage drop due to Peukert effect it’s Not gonna happen.

1500W/12 =125A Again not gonna happen.

With Lithium batteries this is possible as they have a discharge rate of 100-150A depending on brand and internal BMS parameters. They also do not have a Peukert coefficient so there is essentially no voltage drop at the 100A discharge rate. BUT you would still need 2 Lithium batteries To have a functional system.

See with Lead Acid/AGM chemistry the internal resistance on the battery limits how fast it can release its energy. On slow steady discharge rates they work great, but on high demand rates such as running a coffee maker through an inverter then cannot release energy fast enough to maintain the amp demand therefore voltage drops and this in-turn causes Amp to go up, which cause voltage to drop even more, which cause Amps to go up even more......
Until the system shuts down.

Sorry for the rant.

Please note photos below. I’ve done extensive testing. This is with 4 Brand new LifeLine AGM batteries wire with 4/0 pure copper.
Note the voltage of 13.1 at rest and then 12.1 under a large load. This is the Peukert effect demonstrating its power.

[lsbrodsky]

Yep, what GMFL said.

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by GMFL

Ok so here you go......
You will need a minimum 2000W inverter to run any of the appliances you mentioned (MINIMUM). This can easily be added to you Bambi 22. Under the bed is the BEST option due to it close proximity to your battery bank.
NOW FOR THE BAD NEWS......
To run either of those type appliances (coffee maker, toaster, blender) they will draw between 900W-1500W
So let’s do the math for both low and high numbers.

900W/12V =75A This means that your battery bank (Assuming Lead Acid/AGM group 27, not sure if you have or two but let say two. A Realistic 86AH x2=172 AHx50%= 86AH usable) would need to have a discharge rate of 1C ( 1 x capacity) to be able to power that 900watt load. Hint. With inverter loss and voltage drop due to Peukert effect it’s Not gonna happen.

1500W/12 =125A Again not gonna happen.

With Lithium batteries this is possible as they have a discharge rate of 100-150A depending on brand and internal BMS parameters. They also do not have a Peukert coefficient so there is essentially no voltage drop at the 100A discharge rate. BUT you would still need 2 Lithium batteries To have a functional system.

See with Lead Acid/AGM chemistry the internal resistance on the battery limits how fast it can release its energy. On slow steady discharge rates they work great, but on high demand rates such as running a coffee maker through an inverter then cannot release energy fast enough to maintain the amp demand therefore voltage drops and this in-turn causes Amp to go up, which cause voltage to drop even more, which cause Amps to go up even more......
Until the system shuts down.

Sorry for the rant.

Please note photos below. I’ve done extensive testing. This is with 4 Brand new LifeLine AGM batteries wire with 4/0 pure copper.
Note the voltage of 13.1 at rest and then 12.1 under a large load. This is the Peukert effect demonstrating its power.

Well that rains on my parade. ;-)

Seriously, thank you. Very helpful as always.

On my battery bank, you guessed correctly. Got 2 lead acid. The Interstate ones delivered with the rig.

So we’d be talking new batteries and adding the inverter. Not sure it’s worth it.

The Goal Zero Yeti 1400 seems like a simpler option.

[lsbrodsky]

https://www.wacaco.com/pages/nanopresso

I have one of these and it is a great device for using the original Nespresso capsules. They also make device for a full size cup of coffee. All you need is boiling water. Scratch the need for a coffee machine, even a french press is a great alternative.
Camping places also sell toaster like device that goes on top of the stove and use the gas flame.
Saves you the cost of a new major device. You could still install a small inverter for your TV/DVD.
Larry

[drbrick]

we have a 300watt portable inverter which draws under 20amps. It works plugged into our 12v USB port which we use to grind our coffee beans Then we boil water on the stove and have good old fashioned "fresh" drip coffee each morning.

Since we are boondockers we have learned the art of being content without 110v appliances - that's what solar panels do for you However, a hand coffee grinder never worked so this is a bit of a compromise Man does not live on bread alone - NEEDS COFFEE!!!!

[steilkurve]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

https://www.wacaco.com/pages/nanopresso



I have one of these and it is a great device for using the original Nespresso capsules. They also make device for a full size cup of coffee. All you need is boiling water. Scratch the need for a coffee machine, even a french press is a great alternative.

Camping places also sell toaster like device that goes on top of the stove and use the gas flame.

Saves you the cost of a new major device. You could still install a small inverter for your TV/DVD.

Larry

Yeah, many have recommended that. Already have a Camping-style French press and that toaster for stove top. It’s just that with Winter here and the inability to camp, I get all sorts of ideas of grandeur to upgrade our experience for next summer... the latest being the whole inverter thing. ;-)

On the TV front, we’re all good as it’s 12v on the new Bambi.

The benefit of the Goal Zero Yeti though is that on top of the inverter, it essentially adds extra battery capacity.

[nwclassic]

GMFL - the tutorial is appreciated. I am midstream in an install gone bad. The last forum advice led me to upsize cabling (which I've not yet done). Your description of max amp delivery has me frozen now. A couple of questions:
1) My 4 - 6V (220A) bank/ 2000W inverter... adequate to run microwave/hairdryer?
2) If yes to above, do cable clamps vs threaded posts/wingnuts allow for greater amp flow?
Recabling is challenging but doable. Connector choice concerns me. Copper eyed connectors would be easier to snake but not if they are amp restricted. I might arrive at the same conclusion the OP did. Thanks.

[Ron1934]

My recommendation for your issue is 2 each Eco Flo Deltas solar power stations which I have for my 2019 Sport 16.Compare with the Goal Zero 1400.Big difference is the Delta can recharge from 0 to 100% in 2 hours from any 110/120 v receptacle. Also can charge from any trim solar panels as well as Deltas suit case solar panels.Easily portable; weight is 30 lbs each.I installed a 30amp receiver next to the controller that can switch from out side shore power to inside " shore" power.

[GMFL]

Originally Posted by nwclassic

GMFL - the tutorial is appreciated. I am midstream in an install gone bad. The last forum advice led me to upsize cabling (which I've not yet done). Your description of max amp delivery has me frozen now. A couple of questions:
1) My 4 - 6V (220A) bank/ 2000W inverter... adequate to run microwave/hairdryer?
2) If yes to above, do cable clamps vs threaded posts/wingnuts allow for greater amp flow?
Recabling is challenging but doable. Connector choice concerns me. Copper eyed connectors would be easier to snake but not if they are amp restricted. I might arrive at the same conclusion the OP did. Thanks.

PM sent

[jeffmc306]

Originally Posted by steilkurve

Hey all. Owner of a 2020 Bambi 22FB. Unit did not come with an inverter and I’m considering adding one to operate small appliances like an Nespresso coffee machine or a toaster while boondocking. Two questions:

-Thoughts on adding a permanent inverter or getting a Goal Zero Yeti 1400, which would have the added benefit of giving additional battery backup for boondocking days with less sun.

-Where is the inverter placed on the Caravel version of my 22FB? Dealer is suggesting putting it under the bed but I’d rather not add weight or loose storage space there. Could it not be around where the WFCO panel/charger is?

Thanks in advance for the info.

NP

steilkurve, to your question about Goal Zero, another forum member, pteck did a really nice job explaining his approach.

Check out the thread here:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f37...um-196422.html

Let us know what you end up doing!

[Silver.Sanctuary]

Originally Posted by steilkurve

Well that rains on my parade. ;-)

Seriously, thank you. Very helpful as always.

On my battery bank, you guessed correctly. Got 2 lead acid. The Interstate ones delivered with the rig.

So we’d be talking new batteries and adding the inverter. Not sure it’s worth it.

The Goal Zero Yeti 1400 seems like a simpler option.

I have a 22 foot Safari. I run a 100W inverter only if I want to watch television, and it plugs into the cigarette lighter plug port just fine. I only use my toaster or coffee maker when I have shore power, and use Taster's Choice house blend instant coffee in hot water heated on the propane burners. To my taste, Taster's Choice House Blend is almost as good as fresh perked... but you may have different opinions. I put LED DC lights in the whole trailer, and with the two ceiling fans I never seem to draw down on my lead acid house batteries. If I do, I carry a Honda generator (use to carry 2 of them but put in an Easystart for the AC) and I have 200 watts of solar panels if I don't want to crank the generator.

A very good supply of Taster's Choice coffee packets fit in less space than a coffee pot and my be a suitable alternative without all the inverter stuff. Of course you could take your Nespresso and toaster in case you have electrical hook-ups.

[firman]

Most of these comments have already been made. But based on my experience, a simple percolator coffee pot on the propane stove, for fresh coffee, and a 2000W Honda generator for my wife's hair dryer and TV are fairly easy alternatives to adding an inverter etc. ( My truck camper has a 12 volt TV,, and it sounds like Airstream is finally going this direction.) And yes, in a pinch Tasters Choice ( or boiled coffee bags as opposed to dunked coffee bags) can provide the caffeine fix.

[Milo1952]

Originally Posted by steilkurve

The Nespresso coffee maker is 1310 watts. The Goal Zero Yeti 1400 has a 15000 watt inverter with 3000 watt surge. Would that not be enough?

Do you mean a 1500 watt inverter ?

[pteck]

Thanks jeffmc306 for linking my thread.

To the OP, I have both installed on my trailer. A Goal Zero 1000 (same inverter as the GZ 1400) and 2x 6V Golf Cart batts with a 2000W inverter. I've done side by side comparisons, as I can literally switch the source of the 120V power on the fly between the two sources.

It's not really even a comparison. To GMFLs point about amp draw and C-rate, lead acid batts, even in AGM flavor simply can't support the type of high draw device you're proposing.

To add, even if the lead acid batts had a chance to power the load without too much voltage drop, because of Peukert's effect, the capacity drawn is a multiple of the power actually used. Said another way, if one had say 100Ah usable, drawing 20Ah at these high rates will consume something more like 50Ah of the usable capacity.

I don't like having to make the choice between my electric coffee maker and having power reserves for the furnace at night.

There's only one realistic choice here with high power devices such as microwaves and blow dryers, both items I don't think twice about powering with my Goal Zero 1000. You don't necessarily even have to integrate the battery into the trailer 120V outlets as I have at the thread posted above. Use it standalone, with all the flexibility it offers as a portable device. Add a $40 Goal Zero Yeti Car Charger and it will even charge from whatever solar you might have installed on your trailer.

[SandKSmith]

I’ll second what ptech said. I followed his approach with a Yetti 1400 tied to a transfer switch and 400 watt solar via car charger. It powers anything we plug in a wall outlet easily- my wife’s travel (800 watt) hair dryer, coffee pot and grinder, laptops for hours and hours, and our small 1100 watt microwave. 10 days dry camping with the convenience of 20 amp shore power proved its value to me. I’ve even used it to boost my old 100ah marine 6 volt batteries when the furnace ran them to levels I’d prefer not to see before the sun comes up. The generator never left the truck. It’s still portable if I need it elsewhere as well.

[TouringDan]

Hey, nothing wrong with dreaming about improvements in your Airstream to make camping better.

It is always nice to have options. I will agree that the simplest solution for operating a toaster and your high power coffee maker is to get a Goal Zero- whatever size you need.

Before I installed lithium batteries I had two 6v golf cart batteries and a Zamp 1000 watt pure sine inverter. This was a very easy install. The inverter was about $250. This would operate my wife’s hairdryer and my toaster, but not the microwave. It really worked fine. However, I really wanted to be able to operate the microwave and it was time for new batteries, so I installed 2 lithium BB batteries and a 2,000 watt Samlex inverter. I could have just used one battery (my opinion) but I had room for two so I installed two. The installation is more complex and more expensive, but it works great and the batteries are warranted for 10 years.

Here is a photo of my power plant. Details are in my thread- Dan’s 66 Tradewind Improvements.

Dan