Yamaha 2K did not work with EasyStart

[kscherzi]

A while ago I ran my 15k BTU AC through my Kill-a-watt (plugged into a 20 amp socket) and found it drew an average of 14 continuous amps at 118 volts. Both the Honda and Yamaha are rated at 13.3 amps continuous according to their respective owners manuals. Apparently the Honda is somewhat overbuilt so it manages to output a little more, time will tell if this is also the case in regards to the Yamaha. I'm guessing (actually hoping a lot because this is what I have) the Yamaha will be comparable in performance to the Honda.

For the record, the Yamaha 2000iSv2 did start the 15k BTU generator in eco mode. The red overload light did flicker for about 0.5 second. The engine sped up to high then seemed to slow down a little as the AC settled in. If I find time I'll take it back to the trailer in storage this weekend and try it out again and run it for a longer period.

[SCOTTinNJ]

Sounds like propane could be the issue.

[lewster]

Originally Posted by GMFL

I just ordered one. And don't even own a gen set yet. It will reduce the over all load on my 30 amp service so maybe we can run the electric water heater AC and my wife's hair dryer all at the same time

No way......no how!

You are asking for a catastrophe by attempting to merge 2 disparate 120VAC sources into a single circuit.

This is why automatic transfer switches are used.....it's one or the other!!!! NEVER BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY!

Where did you ever get the idea that you could 'reduce' the load of your 30 amp shore circuit with adding a generator????

You CAN by using a hybrid inverter/charger with a large battery bank , as they are designed to supplement load requirements that exceed a single circuit's rating.....but NOT with a combination of a generator with shore power.

[dames7]

Is this a newbie doing this!

Always run water heater on propane and leave the hair dryer at home.

[Shiny16]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

Huh? You do not want to try to run a generator in parallel with shorepower! I do not think there is any way to try since there are not two input connectors connected at the same time, but do not try.
Larry

I think he meant the easy start would reduce the load not the generator. I hope.

Jimmy

[Bluto]

Originally Posted by Micro-Air

Continuously. We have a 15k Dometic Penguin II at the factory, and the Honda EU2000i. You can run the Honda EU2000i generator right up to its 16.7A 2000W limit, and it will continue to output power without even a hiccup, until it empties the gas tank. Exceed 16.7A by a half amp or so, and it will shutdown and declare its overload fault in about 10 seconds, more or less depending on the extent of the overload condition.

Thank You!

[lsbrodsky]

No, I do not think propane is the issue, there are plenty of successful runs on the Honda on propane. Propane does not derate the generator that much.
The change that Yamaha made to v2 and everything they printed about the newer version makes it pretty clear that the original Yamaha 2000iS would trip quickly with higher demand and the v2 version essentially matched the Honda specifications, fixing that problem.
I wasn't smart enough to know the difference when I bought my Yamaha 4 years ago and I probably never would have considered running A/C off a 2k generator as possible or needed, in any event. After some experience and the advent of the EasyStart, it is a capability I desire. So I bought Shiny16's used Honda propane conversion and will test it next week, on propane.
Larry

[Micro-Air]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

No, I do not think propane is the issue, there are plenty of successful runs on the Honda on propane. Propane does not derate the generator that much.
The change that Yamaha made to v2 and everything they printed about the newer version makes it pretty clear that the original Yamaha 2000iS would trip quickly with higher demand and the v2 version essentially matched the Honda specifications, fixing that problem.
I wasn't smart enough to know the difference when I bought my Yamaha 4 years ago and I probably never would have considered running A/C off a 2k generator as possible or needed, in any event. After some experience and the advent of the EasyStart, it is a capability I desire. So I bought Shiny16's used Honda propane conversion and will test it next week, on propane.
Larry

You're spot on with this, Larry. We do have several confirmed reports of customers running their A/Cs, even 15ks, on Honda EU2000i generators with propane. Although the energy density of propane is less than gasoline, the difference in performance at sea-level is a non-issue. Propane will start to show its inferiority to gasoline as you go higher in altitude.

Speaking of which, last Sunday I was working with two customers, one of which was an Airstream owner and forum participant with a Dometic 13.5k Penguin (I) from 2008 and a Honda EU2000i running at 5000'. Read on if your interested (Warning: Another long Matteo story ahead )

------------------------------

The older 13.5k Penguins draw as much current as the new 15k Penguin IIs at steady state (~15A). We discovered a very interesting behavior of the Honda that I had him capture with his voltmeter. The air conditioner started fine with it EasyStart, but then after about 5 minutes of operation, the compressor would stall out, and the EasyStart would indicate stall via its fault LEDs. I had him repeat this failure measuring the AC voltage applied to the unit. Low and behold, soon after start-up, as the unit slowly started to draw a little more current as it approached its thermodynamic steady-state, the AC voltage coming out of the Honda started dropping. 105, 95, 90, 80, then stall, over about 15 seconds. It fell off this cliff at about the 5 minute point. Note that just about every 115VAC compressor will stall below 90VAC. Here's why this happened with the Honda:

The Honda works by throttling its engine (variably when in ECO mode, 100% when not in ECO mode) to charge and maintain a set voltage on a bipolar DC bus (+/-170VDC, or 340VDC total), which is basically a bank of large high-voltage capacitors, from which its inverter section draws its voltage to produce the output 120VAC waveform. If you stay below the 16.7A overload threshold, which is where this customer's load was operating (~15A), the Honda will of course never declare an overload fault. But as you climb in altitude, the engine will lose about 3% power every 1000' (I read that from a couple different online sources). 5000' means 15% loss in power! That's quite a bit at the levels we're talking. 16.7A of capacity at sea-level suddenly becomes ~14.2A at 5000'. So, when the compressor started to creep up in amperage towards its steady-state of 15A, the Honda's engine side started to fall behind keeping up with charging its capacity bank, even at full throttle. Eventually, the capacitor bank gets starved, the inverter has less voltage to work with, so the output AC waveform starts collapsing, thus leading to the stall condition.

So, THIS is what Honda and other generator manufacturers mean by their "rated" output capacity specs, versus any "maximum" or "starting" value they may specify. "Rated" means just that: It's a performance level at a given set of environmental or other conditions. The good news is the Honda EU2000i can operate up to its specified "maximum" output performance (16.7A) up to probably about 3000' on propane (my current personal estimate based upon other customer feedback). Beyond that, even the Honda will start to fall back from its maximum capacity and perform somewhere in between that and its rated capacity. The same happens when fueled by gasoline, but it'll just take place at higher altitudes. The customer and I even experimented with lower octane fuel since that supposedly does provide slight higher power at higher altitudes (Lower octanes burn faster, so with a carburetor-aspirated engine, reduced octane can regain some power with less oxygen. Note that in a car or any engine with fuel injection, the octane makes much less of a difference at altitude since the engine's computer will compensate for the slower burn by advancing the timing. That helps, but there does come a point where the maximum power attainable by dynamic adjustments in timing start to diminish.) The results with 85 octane in the generator were marginally better, but not nearly enough to keep the A/C running.

Getting back to the Yamaha situation, the key difference as you and I now know and discussed is the fact that the EF2000iS inverter system really wasn't designed to allow for sustained output capacities between its 13.3A (1600W) "rated" capacity and its 16.7A (2000W) "maximum" capacity. Realizing that this was hurting their ability to compete with Honda, Yamaha obviously went back in and redesigned the inverter for the EF2000iSv2 to be more like that of the Honda, so it can now maintain the maximum output rating without declaring an overload fault. From an EE standpoint, this was no doubt accomplished by beefing up the IGBTs in the inverter and increasing the size (microfarads) of the capacitor bank, both of which cost more money, but both of which always come down in cost over time. Now, relative to the Honda, where the Yamaha iSv2 starts to fall back from its maximum capacity spec when you bring propane and/or altitude into the situation, is still an unknown. This fall-back threshold will depend on the capacity of the engine and its alternator/generator (not the capacitor bank or inverter IGBTs). The Honda has a 98.5cc engine, whereas the Yamaha has a 79cc engine. We all know that these days, engine size isn't the sole determiner for output HP. But, if we assume the mechanical engineers at Honda and Yamaha maxed out their respective engines' output capabilities given their size, then theory dictates that the Yamaha iSv2 might start to fall back from its maximum rated output under more challenging conditions (propane and/or altitude), sooner than the Honda. Like I stated above, we really don't know this yet, but I'm sure some Yamaha iSv2 owners here may already more data on this, or may eventually find out.

Interesting stuff. I'm learning a massive amount every hour of every day working with everyone here on this. I hope others find benefit in it as well.

[lsbrodsky]

Very interesting...seems like the Honda guys have been correct in their loyalty.

Larry

[Shiny16]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

Very interesting...seems like the Honda guys have been correct in their loyalty.

Larry

I'm sure the Honda will work out to your satisfaction. If not I'll be more then happy to take it back. Additionally for the benefit of others as I previously mentioned to you the support at Gennconnex is awesome and almost rivals Micro air's.

[wulfraat]

Originally Posted by Micro-Air

You're spot on with this, Larry. We do have several confirmed reports of customers running their A/Cs, even 15ks, on Honda EU2000i generators with propane. Although the energy density of propane is less than gasoline, the difference in performance at sea-level is a non-issue. Propane will start to show its inferiority to gasoline as you go higher in altitude.

Speaking of which, last Sunday I was working with two customers, one of which was an Airstream owner and forum participant with a Dometic 13.5k Penguin (I) from 2008 and a Honda EU2000i running at 5000'. Read on if your interested (Warning: Another long Matteo story ahead )

------------------------------

The older 13.5k Penguins draw as much current as the new 15k Penguin IIs at steady state (~15A). We discovered a very interesting behavior of the Honda that I had him capture with his voltmeter. The air conditioner started fine with it EasyStart, but then after about 5 minutes of operation, the compressor would stall out, and the EasyStart would indicate stall via its fault LEDs. I had him repeat this failure measuring the AC voltage applied to the unit. Low and behold, soon after start-up, as the unit slowly started to draw a little more current as it approached its thermodynamic steady-state, the AC voltage coming out of the Honda started dropping. 105, 95, 90, 80, then stall, over about 15 seconds. It fell off this cliff at about the 5 minute point. Note that just about every 115VAC compressor will stall below 90VAC.

I was the individual working with Matteo last weekend on this issue of the compressor stall st 5,000 ft revocation... first off thanks again Matteo for your awesome support and collaboration on trying to solve for this unique set of circumstances.

I have not given up just yet!

I am going to give this one last shot next weekend when the snow (that's right it snowed last night here on the front range near Denver) clears up.

Here are the environmental optimizations that my next test will include, with a goal of reducing AC draw and maximizing genset output / available current for the AC while in operation:

1. I have now have blown out and cleaned the cooling fins on the condenser coil using my air compressor to ensure maximum efficiency

2. I am going to replace the current 8 year old run capacitor (20/10 MFD) with a new one from dometic to ensure it is running at max efficiency when trying to maintain voltage to the compressor motor ($33 cost for the capacitor)

3. I am going to re-jet my 1 year old honda eu2000i genset with a #60 jet to lean out the air/fuel mixture for operating between 5000' and 7500' elevation and (for this next test) revert back to 92 octane fuel per honda's recommendation. ($12 cost for the jet). In theory I might win some loose some here by abandoning the 87 octane / faster burn fuel but want to stick with honda's "by the book" recommendation for genset configuration at my elevation, for this next test anyways ....

4. I will set the AC fan to "low" on my CCC control panel vs. auto. When in auto the AC fan will always kick on in "high" mode and draw full amps (3.5amps with my unit per the specs) so in forcing it to run at a constant low setting (less air movement) I am hoping it will draw slightly less amps. This combined with #5 below I believe could provide the greatest benefit in minimizing draw on the honda

5. I will ensure and double check that I turn off the fridge, Television, other 120v items and all 12v accessories in the trailer including lights, radio, propane water heater, etc, and disconnect my batteries from the system with my master disconnect switch at the battery box to minimize converter/charger and 120v draw to allow near 100% of available genset power being produced to be available to the AC unit

I am hopeful that by doing the above I might just squeak by. We'll see! I'll keep everyone posted.

PS - not to hijack the thread but is there anyone else out there using a honda 2000i to run their penguin AC at or above 5,000' elevation (without the use of a hybrid converter in the system! ?

[JMynes]

This is a very educational thread. I enjoy learning about the inner workings of these mysterious devices I buy to enhance my RVing experience.
Matteo, thanks for sharing, in near-layman's terms, the nuances of Honda's power production magic.
I have two Honda 2000s, purchased to power a fifth wheel two RVs ago. I almost wish I only had one, so I could install the easy start and lug one less piece of gear. But, alas, I am cursed with too many watts.

[wmcneil]

Larry, Matteo, wulfraat,

Thanks for sharing all the info. I am a EE myself, so I find this very interesting indeed. It will be very interesting to hear some real experience with how long the Yamaha V2 can sustain it's peak rating. Given that Yamaha specs this interval as 13 minutes, and the fact that the Yamaha engine is just under 20% smaller, I wonder how well the Yamaha can perform in the region above its rated output.......On a related note, if anyone is aware of a vendor selling the Honda with a tri-fuel setup and a 3 year warranty, I would be interested to know. There is at least one vendor that is selling a tri-fuel Yamaha 2000v2, and that is one of the reasons I am keen to hear real world experience for the Yamaha.

[sburrw]

Yes, mine is a Yamaha v2

[mojo]

Originally Posted by wulfraat

PS - not to hijack the thread but is there anyone else out there using a honda 2000i to run their penguin AC at or above 5,000' elevation (without the use of a hybrid converter in the system! ?

I have been using a Honda 2000 for 9 years and had it jetted by the dealer for 5000+ ft. altitude from the beginning. Since I spend a lot of time in AZ desert at 2k to 1k ft., I switched to a propane setup from US Carb that let's me adjust the propane flow to "tune by ear" for best running. So far, so good.

But I ordered a MicroAir just before seeing this thread. I hope it all will work together!

[Troutboy]

Wulf, keep us posted! I have t bought the generator yet, so not locked in. I was hoping for the ability to use propane instead of gasoline, but that may be out here in the Rockies of Colorado.....

The snow is unbelievable, was hoping to dewinterize the AS today, but temps still predicted below freezing[emoji35][emoji35]

[thiel]

Originally Posted by lsbrodsky

Very interesting...seems like the Honda guys have been correct in their loyalty.

Larry

Honda's stuff ain't sexy, but it endears itself to you over time. It's actually quite nice to hear more about the inner workings and design... makes you almost proud of them for the decisions they have been making.

Seems like someone there set the right tone a long time ago to under promise, over deliver, and build to last. Yamaha, Toyota and others ain't no slouches... but it does appear that Honda's approach is a particularly rare and beautiful thing these days.

[Troutboy]

Larry, thanks for the input, out in front as the early adopter again! Appreciate you sharing all you do so the rest of us don't have to learn those same issues first hand.

[wulfraat]

Originally Posted by Troutboy

Wulf, keep us posted! I have t bought the generator yet, so not locked in. I was hoping for the ability to use propane instead of gasoline, but that may be out here in the Rockies of Colorado.....

The snow is unbelievable, was hoping to dewinterize the AS today, but temps still predicted below freezing[emoji35][emoji35]

Will do.

In your case you'll be fine with a honda 2000i because... well... even if its output current is slightly under where it needs to you've got the backstop of a hybrid inverter with lots of lithium amp hours of energy storage in hand.

So if you are short an amp or 2 on the genset output your victron should automatically make up for it in hybrid mode from what I understand. I don't have that luxury (yet!)

Also if you've got a 13.5k penguin II up top it in of itself will also be slightly more efficient than my older first generation unit.

Finally, I'm local as you know so you are welcome to test with my honda if you want to swing by or if we get out to boondock of these days!

I went out to my trailer yesterday with my generator and air compressor to blow the lines out and re-winterized it! Spring in Colorado!

[hhendrix]

Originally Posted by Troutboy

Larry, thanks for the input, out in front as the early adopter again! Appreciate you sharing all you do so the rest of us don't have to learn those same issues first hand.

Very interesting thread. I have a 27' FC with twin A/C's. I also have 2 Yamaha's with the companion set up. The Easy Starts for both just arrived but I haven't set a time to install them yet. Mine run on propane and I'm sure at least one A/C will run on the twin Yamaha's with no problem. Question is: Will they both run? I'm going to have to check on the A/C btu ratings and get an idea how they will perform.