Honda EU2200 + Victron MultiPlus = No A.C.???

[JonSchroeder]

Hi Everyone,

Starting a new thread here, but please let me know if this is covered elsewhere. I searched but didn't find anything too specific to my application.

In the past, I've run my Air Conditioner (I believe it's a 13,500 BTU) using a Honda EU2200i generator without issue. I recently upgraded my electric system to include a Victron MultiPlus 12/2000. I have the 'shore power' cable running directly to the AC input of the multiplus (no automatic transfer switch), and AC out running directly from the multiplus to the AC panel.

In inverter mode and in pass-through mode (with the generator running), I can run all AC appliances without issue. The one exception being the Air Conditioner. Every time I turn that on, it gives me an 'overload' error. If I have the Multiplus in inverter mode (with the generator running), the inverter makes a loud 'inverting' noise, and shuts down due to overload error. If I have the multiplus in 'pass-through' mode, it doesn't make the loud noise, but still shuts down the system.

I had assumed that when in 'pass-through' mode, the generator would behave exactly like it did when it was wired directly to the panel. Clearly, that's not the case. I've tried increasing the input current limit (tried the max of 50A), with no change. Also tried inverter mode with and without the 'PowerAssist' enabled, again with no change.

In case its helpful, I've pasted a picture of the electrical system below. Any ideas on why the addition of the MultiPlus would prevent my EU2200i from running my A.C.?

Thanks in advance,
Jon

[Prettygood]

I heavily researched this, but have yet to do the install. I believe you needed the Multiplus 3000 model to handle the constant draw from the AC. If it was a very recent install, any chance you can swap out? The only other difference from my planned setup is 300-400 ah Battleborn, which also allows more draw if shore power was insufficient. Don’t think that is playing a part in your challenge though. Keep posting on your solution!

[wulfraat]

It should work in theory. You don’t need a 3000 to run the Air Con when you have some amount of shore power, regardless of if the source is grid or genset... a 3000 behaves the same way with 50A pass through and hybrid assist .... (I have a multi 3000 and honda 2000 btw)

Now that being said here is what I believe is happening .....I am going to assume:

1. Your air con runs with the multi when grid is the source of your AC shore power (IE plugged into 30A at the campground)
2. You do not have a micro air easy start installed on your 13.5k domestic air con unit
3. You don’t have a ccgx in the system which provides more advanced diagnostics / alarming and you are using the more basic digital multi control panel / observing the basic overload lights

I believe what is happening is that when the Air con compressor motor locks up on start up (generating a very sudden load on your honda 2200), voltage output from the honda takes a dive and drops below the acceptable inbound shorepower AC voltage threshold for the multi plus, and it triggers an overload condition (which is actually a low voltage condition - which a ccgx can differentiate on, but the basic control panel cannot). Voltage drops to a point where the multi is not happy (~95v), but not too low for the genset to stall out. When the multi does not like shore power voltage, it will disconnect shore power until such voltage is restored to an acceptable level.

Without the multi normally the genset with struggle along for a few moments and recover... but with the multi... well it reacts quickly and cuts off draw before the honda can recover. Cutting off draw on an alarm condition = no bueno and power is cut off the the air con and the startup procedure comes to a halt (as a side note do you see an e7 code on your domestic CCC control panel by chance when this happens?)

If you had a ccgx it would trigger a low voltage alarm vs the more basic “overload” light on the remote digital multi panel. But again I’m assuming you are not seeing this with your current hardware configuration.

It’s also important to understand that in hybrid assist mode the multi will add amperage from the bats to help with current demand, but when it does so to supplement shore Power current it matches in the inbound voltage of the Shore power line (it adds current, but does not increase voltage). That means that even if you set current limit to say 10A (well below honda capable output) the low voltage condition would still occur, because the multi will not add voltage, it will only add current in assist mode.

You would not see this condition when on proper grid shore power because voltage is far more constant than when you put a very heavy instant load on a small genset.

You would also see no issues without a multi in line (as you stated things worked ok before you installed the multi) because voltage would drop, but recover before the genset stalled and get that compressor motor running albeit with a struggle.

Now the likely solution here is to install a micro air easy start on your AC. I have one. This device will eliminate the large current draw on air con compressor startup, preserving / not crashing voltage output from the genset, and hence not triggering a low voltage condition / overload on the multi. You will also absolutely need to run in hybrid assist mode with a honda 2200. Set your current limit at 13-15A (depending on your elevation) and allow your lithium’s to provide additional reserve current. Why? Remember - your multi is only 92% efficient - which means you have an 8% capacity loss of your 2200 right off the batt because of inverter losses. This puts you so close to the limit of the 2200 that you will probably need some amount of assist from the batts to keep pace with constant air con draw and running a few lights or what have you. 8% is a big hit when you are already running at the limit of the genset.

Let me know if this makes sense and helps. It’s a theory based on a year in the field with my lithium’s, multi, honda, easy start and 15k AC unit, etc etc [emoji4]

PS - it’s unfortunate but your 12/2000 does not have a 50A secondary line out / multi bypass circuit like the 3000... the 3000 has a true pass through capability when shore power is present - this allows you to run a split panel and completely bypass the multi on a secondary output when on shore power ... but I digress....

[Prettygood]

Originally Posted by wulfraat

It should work in theory. You don’t need a 3000 to run the Air Con when you have some amount of shore power, regardless of if the source is grid or genset... a 3000 behaves the same way with 50A pass through and hybrid assist .... (I have a multi 3000 and honda 2000 btw)

Now that being said here is what I believe is happening .....I am going to assume:

1. Your air con runs with the multi when grid is the source of your AC shore power (IE plugged into 30A at the campground)
2. You do not have a micro air easy start installed on your 13.5k domestic air con unit
3. You don’t have a ccgx in the system which provides more advanced diagnostics / alarming and you are using the more basic digital multi control panel / observing the basic overload lights

I believe what is happening is that when the Air con compressor motor locks up on start up (generating a very sudden load on your honda 2200), voltage output from the honda takes a dive and drops below the acceptable inbound shorepower AC voltage threshold for the multi plus, and it triggers an overload condition (which is actually a low voltage condition - which a ccgx can differentiate on, but the basic control panel cannot). Voltage drops to a point where the multi is not happy (~95v), but not too low for the genset to stall out. When the multi does not like shore power voltage, it will disconnect shore power until such voltage is restored to an acceptable level.

Without the multi normally the genset with struggle along for a few moments and recover... but with the multi... well it reacts quickly and cuts off draw before the honda can recover. Cutting off draw on an alarm condition = no bueno and power is cut off the the air con and the startup procedure comes to a halt (as a side note do you see an e7 code on your domestic CCC control panel by chance when this happens?)

If you had a ccgx it would trigger a low voltage alarm vs the more basic “overload” light on the remote digital multi panel. But again I’m assuming you are not seeing this with your current hardware configuration.

It’s also important to understand that in hybrid assist mode the multi will add amperage from the bats to help with current demand, but when it does so to supplement shore Power current it matches in the inbound voltage of the Shore power line (it adds current, but does not increase voltage). That means that even if you set current limit to say 10A (well below honda capable output) the low voltage condition would still occur, because the multi will not add voltage, it will only add current in assist mode.

You would not see this condition when on proper grid shore power because voltage is far more constant than when you put a very heavy instant load on a small genset.

You would also see no issues without a multi in line (as you stated things worked ok before you installed the multi) because voltage would drop, but recover before the genset stalled and get that compressor motor running albeit with a struggle.

Now the likely solution here is to install a micro air easy start on your AC. I have one. This device will eliminate the large current draw on air con compressor startup, preserving / not crashing voltage output from the genset, and hence not triggering a low voltage condition / overload on the multi. You will also absolutely need to run in hybrid assist mode with a honda 2200. Set your current limit at 13-15A (depending on your elevation) and allow your lithium’s to provide additional reserve current. Why? Remember - your multi is only 92% efficient - which means you have an 8% capacity loss of your 2200 right off the batt because of inverter losses. This puts you so close to the limit of the 2200 that you will probably need some amount of assist from the batts to keep pace with constant air con draw and running a few lights or what have you. 8% is a big hit when you are already running at the limit of the genset.

Let me know if this makes sense and helps. It’s a theory based on a year in the field with my lithium’s, multi, honda, easy start and 15k AC unit, etc etc [emoji4]

PS - it’s unfortunate but your 12/2000 does not have a 50A secondary line out / multi bypass circuit like the 3000... the 3000 has a true pass through capability when shore power is present - this allows you to run a split panel and completely bypass the multi on a secondary output when on shore power ... but I digress....

I was assuming an easy start was installed. That would be the first next step to solve. Thanks

[JonSchroeder]

Thanks for all the feedback Wulfraat & Prettygood.

I think you guys are spot on that this is related to a Voltage drop, rather than a current overload. I also agree that a softstart is probably a good idea, even if I do get this sorted out. A couple followup questions:

Have either of you experimented with the "Dynamic Current Limit" (DCL) function. Here's some of the info in the App about DCL: "when a generator is running at low load it cannot switch to full load immediately and it needs some time to increase the power...enabling DCL prevents AC voltage drop in the event of a sudden load increase." Kind of seems like exactly what I'm looking for. I plan to try this out next time I'm in the trailer.

Also, I posted this on the Victron website as well and got feedback that some people were finding that they could simply turn the MultiPlus completely off, then start thier AC on the Generator, then turn the MultiPlus back on. I suppose I could try that as well, but I wasn't clear on exactly how the AC will function with the MP off. Is the shore power simply and truely passed through the MP when the unit is in "off" mode?

Thanks again,
Jon

[wulfraat]

Dynamic current limit is simply the power assist hybrid function I believe. This is the inbound amperage threshold you set on the digital control panel and dictates at which point the inverter will kick in to supplement shore power. I believe it’s the same thing but would need to check the multiplus documentation to be sure. For what it is worth I use hybrid mode a lot with my multiplus and honda.

Turning the multiplus completely off.... for the 12/3000 if you do this everything down steam shuts down on L1 output. It does not pass through 120v if it is off on L1 output. As I mentioned above the 12/3000 has an L2 output which is true pass through but you need to wire a split panel.

The 12/2000 only has a single L1 output and I believe if the unit it off the L1 is shut down and no power is passed through (like the L1 output on the 3000)... but that’s a guess you’d need to test and that’s a pretty easy test to perform

[wulfraat]

Ok I checked out the docs...

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/m...urrent_limiter

You should enable this feature but not hard code the current limit value in VE-configure. Enabling this feature enables PowerAssist feature (my assumption above - PowerAssist seems to simply be the marketing name for this feature in VE-Configure).

Use your digital control panel (I assume you have one - hope so!) to dynamically set the current threshold (per my recommendation in post #3 above).

If you don’t have a digital control panel or cc-gx you will want/need one of these (either one - ccgx is far more powerful but more $$) if you plan to move back and forth from genset to grid as your AC source.

Per Prettygood you also want to get and install an easy start 364. Get the install kit for an extra $10 or $15 it will save you some frustration too!

https://www.microair.net/collections...nt=30176048267

[JonSchroeder]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks again for all the constructive feedback. After a few minor tweeks and one major fix, my A.C. unit is now working exactly as it should.

First, the Major fix... It turns out I pulled a major bonehead move when running my original test. For an unrealted reason, I had one of my two BB batteries unhooked during that original test, so I was running with a current limit of 100A. I'm pretty sure that was primary issue. Once I hooked the second battery back up, and doubled the max current draw, things seemed to be running much better (no more low batt or overload alarms).

After connecting the 2nd battery and re-running the test, the performance was a bit spotty (worked once, then wouldn't come on for a couple tries, then worked again). Wouldn't come on at all if I had the A.C. on max.

Then I tried with Dynamic Current Limiting enabled, and that seems to have done the trick. No more low voltage errors at all, and the A.C. consistently starts up and runs indefinitely, even on the Max setting. So it seems that that function really does help.

Last, on the topic of a control panel: I'm still running without a control panel, and I seem to have all the functionality I'm looking for. Using the MK3 to USB adaptor and the VictronConnect App on my Mac, I'm able to access all the settings that I think I would need. Using the bluetooth dongle, I'm able to control the unit (ie, on/off, charger only, etc.) and set the AC current limit from my phone. Seems like all I need at this point.

Thanks again to everyone who commented. My apologies for the bone-head move...

Jon