|
|
08-01-2018, 04:14 PM
|
#441
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,735
|
Hi
Our factory stock solar install would do just what they said it would. Under high noon / bright sun, it would deliver 140 to 160W (10 to 11A at 14.4V) into a battery / load that needed that much current. I'm not trying to sell anybody on the simple (Atwood?) controller they put in as stock. There are better controllers.
The same panels now deliver 160W over a bit wider range of conditions with a Victron controller. Same wires, same panels. The main improvement with the Victron is in the "lower light" conditions. That's a bit tough to document .....
Bob
|
|
|
08-02-2018, 07:22 AM
|
#442
|
Rivet Master
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction
, Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,222
|
Remember that the advertised solar panel ratings are for a non-existent laboratory condition. The real world experience is 75% of the advertised number on a bright day. So 75% of the nine 100 watt panels on the roof of our Classic would be 675 Watts. Have seen 700 Watts once. That is close to the full load rating of our Tristar 60 MPPT solar charge controller.
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC
TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell
2014 31' Classic w/ twin beds, 50 amp service, 1000 watt solar system, Centramatics, Tuson TPMS, 12" disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
|
|
|
08-02-2018, 08:18 AM
|
#443
|
New Member
1999 34' Limited
Tampa
, Florida
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 3
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Hi
Ummm ..... errrr .... the resistance of the wire is determined by the physical properties of the wire. It's the same (at a given temperature) no matter how much sun is getting to the panels. In a "low output" case, the loss percentage from the wire will *always* be less than the max numbers in the calculation.
All solar panels (at least the ones that put out more than a fraction of a volt) have cells in series. That's the only way to get a higher voltage. There is no magic about running things in parallel. We all run things in series all the time.
What *is* a bad thing is to get below the operating voltage of your solar charger. In that case, the gizmo stops working. If we are talking about putting 16 to 21V panels in series, that's not an issue with 12V batteries. When you see the YouTube videos of people "demonstrating" an issue, they are going below the minimum voltage of their (cheap) charger.
Bob
|
I'm not advising against a series installation, I'm advising against using the minimum wire size.
The loss of power created by partial shade on solar panels is very real:
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/blog/...-solar-panels/
Higher voltage is what reduces energy loss in a smaller wire, hence the series panel installation (creating higher voltage rather than higher amperage).
But in the event of a partially shaded panel, the power loss translates into lower voltage for the entire roof. Which means you now no longer have as high a voltage to push the energy down that thinner wire without losing power along the way.
You have to plan your system for suboptimal situations, not just maximum output.
|
|
|
08-03-2018, 08:52 AM
|
#444
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,735
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genericm
I'm not advising against a series installation, I'm advising against using the minimum wire size.
The loss of power created by partial shade on solar panels is very real:
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/blog/...-solar-panels/
Higher voltage is what reduces energy loss in a smaller wire, hence the series panel installation (creating higher voltage rather than higher amperage).
But in the event of a partially shaded panel, the power loss translates into lower voltage for the entire roof. Which means you now no longer have as high a voltage to push the energy down that thinner wire without losing power along the way.
You have to plan your system for suboptimal situations, not just maximum output.
|
Hi
The issues with series parallel are different than a straight series setup. There is no weird shade problem with straight series.
Bob
|
|
|
08-03-2018, 01:45 PM
|
#445
|
Rivet Master
2019 30' Classic
Canfield
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,559
|
This answers a lot of questions about the 2019 Classics.
Wire size, controller and layout.
__________________
"At some point, throwing money at the problem *is* the right answer", Uncle Bob
x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\101970\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\/x\x/x\x/x
Tom & Doty
2019 Airstream Classic 30 Twin
|
|
|
08-03-2018, 01:48 PM
|
#446
|
Rivet Master
2019 30' Classic
Canfield
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,559
|
__________________
"At some point, throwing money at the problem *is* the right answer", Uncle Bob
x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\101970\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\/x\x/x\x/x
Tom & Doty
2019 Airstream Classic 30 Twin
|
|
|
08-03-2018, 02:21 PM
|
#447
|
Rivet Master
2019 30' Classic
Canfield
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,559
|
It does not appear to have a Victron dongle for smartphone use. I wonder if the classic has the round Victron panel? Guessing not. $49 for the dongle is not too bad.
Also, I do not see any temperature sensor hooked to the batteries.
__________________
"At some point, throwing money at the problem *is* the right answer", Uncle Bob
x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\101970\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\/x\x/x\x/x
Tom & Doty
2019 Airstream Classic 30 Twin
|
|
|
08-03-2018, 02:34 PM
|
#448
|
Rivet Master
2019 30' Classic
Canfield
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,559
|
Just found out that Victron uses the Smart Battery Sense dongle for the battery to measure temp settings. Bluetooth with only about 6' range.
Cleaver fellows!
__________________
"At some point, throwing money at the problem *is* the right answer", Uncle Bob
x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\101970\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\/x\x/x\x/x
Tom & Doty
2019 Airstream Classic 30 Twin
|
|
|
08-03-2018, 03:55 PM
|
#449
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,735
|
Hi
If the MPPT is from the Smart Solar line ( rather than the Blue Solar ) then Victron puts the Bluetooth into the MPPT directly. There is no need for a dongle. It's the same thing they do with the BMV 702 vs BMV 712. With either one, you simply download an app and connect to the battery monitor or to the solar controller. No real need for a visible readout.
Bob
|
|
|
08-03-2018, 06:10 PM
|
#450
|
Rivet Master
2019 30' Classic
Canfield
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,559
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Hi
If the MPPT is from the Smart Solar line ( rather than the Blue Solar ) then Victron puts the Bluetooth into the MPPT directly. There is no need for a dongle. It's the same thing they do with the BMV 702 vs BMV 712. With either one, you simply download an app and connect to the battery monitor or to the solar controller. No real need for a visible readout.
Bob
|
Look a little closer at the electrical diagram. Its a blue solar Mppt 150/35. It needs the dongle.
__________________
"At some point, throwing money at the problem *is* the right answer", Uncle Bob
x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\101970\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\/x\x/x\x/x
Tom & Doty
2019 Airstream Classic 30 Twin
|
|
|
08-03-2018, 07:57 PM
|
#451
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,735
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by turk123
Look a little closer at the electrical diagram. Its a blue solar Mppt 150/35. It needs the dongle.
|
Hi
With AS manuals and drawings .... it's always "trust but verify". There have been a lot of cases of "drawing shows this" and "trailer has that".
A 150 / 35 is a pretty big controller for 280W worth of panels.
Bob
|
|
|
08-03-2018, 08:14 PM
|
#452
|
Rivet Master
2019 30' Classic
Canfield
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,559
|
i agree!
__________________
"At some point, throwing money at the problem *is* the right answer", Uncle Bob
x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\101970\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\/x\x/x\x/x
Tom & Doty
2019 Airstream Classic 30 Twin
|
|
|
08-04-2018, 08:31 AM
|
#453
|
Rivet Master
2018 27' Globetrotter
Apollo Beach
, Florida
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,401
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by turk123
Just found out that Victron uses the Smart Battery Sense dongle for the battery to measure temp settings. Bluetooth with only about 6' range.
Cleaver fellows!
|
I have a Smart Battery Sense Module on my system to provide temperature and voltage compensation. It works as described. I did have to locate it on the outside of the metal battery box so it would communicate with the controller inside the Airstream. The voltage compensation directly at the battery is excellent for the Airstream recommended controller connection to the bus bars inside the Airstream.
On the battery temperature compensation issue . . . battery temperature is not very accurate on any low cost solution from outside the battery. Unless an internal probe is used to measure temperature, there will be some error in the reading. Likely measuring outside the metal case increases that error, but it’s better than no temperature compensation.
__________________
2021 Northern-Lite 10-2 & F350 DRW PSD, 600W Solar/Victron/600A BattleBorn
146 nights 31,000 miles (first 10 months!)
Sold: 2018 GT27Q, 74 nights 12,777 miles
Sold: 2017 FC25FB, 316 nights 40,150 miles
Sold: 2013 Casita SD17 89 nights 16,200 miles
|
|
|
08-04-2018, 12:47 PM
|
#454
|
Living Riveted since 2013
2016 Interstate Lounge Ext
Green Cove Springs
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,210
|
8 Gauge between panels and controller feels skimpy to me. Not as bad as 10 gauge, but still skinnier than I'd like given it's tens of feet from panels to the controller and then the batteries.
I'd go bigger if I was building my own solution - which would be better and cost less than whatever I could get from AS. The primary difference is that AS wants to market what they put on their trailers as "Solar Power!", but I want actual results. Their marketing dollars don't keep my batteries charged when we're boondocking
__________________
Rocinante Piccolo is our new-to-us 2016 Interstate Lounge 3500 EXT
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")
|
|
|
08-04-2018, 01:18 PM
|
#455
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,735
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
8 Gauge between panels and controller feels skimpy to me. Not as bad as 10 gauge, but still skinnier than I'd like given it's tens of feet from panels to the controller and then the batteries.
I'd go bigger if I was building my own solution - which would be better and cost less than whatever I could get from AS. The primary difference is that AS wants to market what they put on their trailers as "Solar Power!", but I want actual results. Their marketing dollars don't keep my batteries charged when we're boondocking
|
Hi
Can you back that up with any sort of physics based explanation other than "bigger is always better?". This whole "we need giant wires everywhere" without any regard at all for the actual currents involved is simply not reasonable.
We're talking about a < 300W system here. Not about every and any solar install ever done.
I've been through the math and shown the numbers involved .....
Yes, every time you increase wire size you *will* reduce losses. Going from five parallel 4/0 cables to ten in parallel *is* less loss. The question is *always* "is the increase in cost and weight worth a small fraction of a precent less loss?" ....
Bob
|
|
|
08-04-2018, 02:20 PM
|
#456
|
Rivet Master
2007 22' International CCD
Corona
, California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,180
|
Factory Installed Solar Charging System
It’s always a design trade off between wire size and acceptable losses as long as the maximum current in the wire is within the wire temperature and amperage rating for the circuit round-trip length. That’s what wire size tables are for.
Our system happens to be wired with #6 wire because that’s what came in the 150 watt ANSolar kit years ago. We can up the capacity quickly to at least 3x what we have now without any re-wiring. Like I always tell my kids, “go look it up from an authoritative source”, in this case either National Electric Code (NEC) or AYBC standards. (The so-called RVIA standards are, IMHO, of “very limited” usefulness.) As usual, YMMV.
Even though I’m the department of “overkill engineering” a 3x safety factor is ‘good enough’ for my current (no pun intended) use.
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
|
|
|
08-04-2018, 11:02 PM
|
#457
|
Living Riveted since 2013
2016 Interstate Lounge Ext
Green Cove Springs
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,210
|
Factory Installed Solar Charging System
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Hi
Can you back that up with any sort of physics based explanation other than "bigger is always better?". This whole "we need giant wires everywhere" without any regard at all for the actual currents involved is simply not reasonable.
We're talking about a < 300W system here. Not about every and any solar install ever done.
I've been through the math and shown the numbers involved .....
Yes, every time you increase wire size you *will* reduce losses. Going from five parallel 4/0 cables to ten in parallel *is* less loss. The question is *always* "is the increase in cost and weight worth a small fraction of a precent less loss?" ....
Bob
|
Bob, I can back it up with cash on the barrel, as I’ve already done via AM Solar. I have 650 watts on the roof, 400 Amp Hours in a lithium battery bank, and a 3,000 watt hybrid inverter. I know what I’m on about.
Watt I’m trying to say, though you keep interrupting to suggest a cheesy borderline solar solution is fine with you, is that those who start that way will inevitably be disappointed with their overpriced, poorly performing system over time. We certainly were, but we’re not feeling that way any more.
Not everyone will want or need to go as far as we did to get what we wanted, but they might as well spend their money on a better engineered solar system than an overpriced AS factory installation that will not serve them as well as one put together by experts in the solar field who care about the same thing the RV owner does: results.
__________________
Rocinante Piccolo is our new-to-us 2016 Interstate Lounge 3500 EXT
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")
|
|
|
08-05-2018, 08:42 AM
|
#458
|
Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,735
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
Bob, I can back it up with cash on the barrel, as I’ve already done via AM Solar. I have 650 watts on the roof, 400 Amp Hours in a lithium battery bank, and a 3,000 watt hybrid inverter. I know what I’m on about.
Watt I’m trying to say, though you keep interrupting to suggest a cheesy borderline solar solution is fine with you, is that those who start that way will inevitably be disappointed with their overpriced, poorly performing system over time. We certainly were, but we’re not feeling that way any more.
Not everyone will want or need to go as far as we did to get what we wanted, but they might as well spend their money on a better engineered solar system than an overpriced AS factory installation that will not serve them as well as one put together by experts in the solar field who care about the same thing the RV owner does: results.
|
Hi
No, we're not talking about a nice big custom solar install here. The thread is about the factory installed system. It's not a custom setup. It's not 600 or 900W of panels. It's a simple / low power system. As such, the cables are plenty big enough to do the job.
Bob
|
|
|
08-05-2018, 03:05 PM
|
#459
|
Living Riveted since 2013
2016 Interstate Lounge Ext
Green Cove Springs
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,210
|
Factory Installed Solar Charging System
...and based on our experience with our dealer-installed system that used the pre-wire in our trailer, I will keep right on disagreeing with you on that issue. [emoji6]
__________________
Rocinante Piccolo is our new-to-us 2016 Interstate Lounge 3500 EXT
(Named for John Steinbeck's camper from "Travels With Charley")
|
|
|
08-05-2018, 05:49 PM
|
#460
|
Rivet Master
2019 30' Classic
Canfield
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2,559
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante
...and based on our experience with our dealer-installed system that used the pre-wire in our trailer, I will keep right on disagreeing with you on that issue. [emoji6]
|
OK, let's reevaluate the system I will have. I will have the "factory system" that consists of 240 watts of solar panels ( 3) with a solar blue 150/35 controller (awesome!) 8 gauge wiring AND a portable system made up of 3 100 watt panels and a renology Mppt controller portable system that can be positioned correctly into the sun and on a 50 foot 6 gauge wire.
The ability to position the portable system toward the sun and at the correct angle may outshine any system that just consists of panels on the roof. 550 total watts and two lifeline batteries. Think it will work now?
__________________
"At some point, throwing money at the problem *is* the right answer", Uncle Bob
x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\101970\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\x/x\/x\x/x\x/x
Tom & Doty
2019 Airstream Classic 30 Twin
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|