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03-06-2019, 11:36 AM
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#1
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2 Rivet Member
2019 27' Globetrotter
Sherwood Park
, Alberta
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 95
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Calling all DIY Solar Upgrade Rockstars
I’ll be upgrading the solar on my 2019 Globetrotter and want to run my plans past all of you solar DIY rockstars (you know who you are!).
I’ve been reading/posting on many treads related to the subject for the last few months and have come up with a plan that I think meets my needs.
My 2019 Globetrotter came with the factory solar option installed (long story, not my choice). I’ve been underwhelmed by the solar performance as well as not having enough amp hour capacity in the batteries. I’ve come up with a multi-step plan to increase both.
Current Configuration: Factory Zamp solar 2x80W installed in parallel on the roof, Atkinson PWM controller and remote display; 2 x Lifeline GPL-24T AGM, 80 Ah each.
Initial Upgrade Stage:
1. Increase battery capacity: my long term goal is to get LifePo4 but budget doesn’t allow for that now. So I’ve managed to secure another GPL-24T for a good deal and will be adding that to the mix. I will relocate all batteries under the front bed (3 x 12v AGM in parallel for total of 240 ah (about 120 usable ah)).
2. Increase solar cell capacity:
- Rewire the two existing 80w panels in series and plug into existing roof combiner box.
- Add two new Zamp 90w panels to the roof, wired in series and also plug into existing roof combiner box (in parallel).
- This series/parallel combination will work with the existing 10/2 factory wiring.
3. Remove factory PWM Controller/Display and replace with Victron SmartSolar 100/50 MPPT and BMV-712. Relocate near batteries.
4. Run a line from the existing Zamp portable connector on the battery box, inside to the new MPPT, in parallel. If I use portable panels, they will be wired in series to each other to respect the voltage requirements.
5. Install switches to isolate each charing source: Roof Panels, Portable Panels, Tow Vehicle charge line, as well as a disconnect for the factory inverter and an overall battery disconnect. A bit overkill but I want to be able to monitor individual sources.
Future Upgrade Stage:
1. Swap out AGM’s for LIfeP04 (likely drop-ins with integrated BMS)
2. Install DC/DC converter on the Tow Vehicle charge line.
Attached is a schematic which hopefully is consistent with my plan. I’d appreciate all feedback on the overall solution, as well as any ideas/pointers/issues you may have.
Thanks all!
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03-06-2019, 12:54 PM
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#2
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Rivet Master
1966 24' Tradewind
1995 34' Excella
Lynchburg
, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,225
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Well thought out. I don’t have much knowledge, but I do have some comments.
- isn’t 10 gauge from the panels to the MPPT large enough?
- I think 100 amp fuse for the inverter is too small. Maybe 150 amp.
- 1,000 watt inverter is fine, but it won’t run the microwave or your wife’s hairdryer on high. I installed a Samlex 2,000 and I like it.
- nice schematic software. Where did you get it?
Dan
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03-06-2019, 12:59 PM
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#3
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2 Rivet Member
2019 27' Globetrotter
Sherwood Park
, Alberta
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 95
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Thanks Dan...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TouringDan
Well thought out. I don’t have much knowledge, but I do have some comments.
- isn’t 10 gauge from the panels to the MPPT large enough?
- I think 100 amp fuse for the inverter is too small. Maybe 150 amp.
- 1,000 watt inverter is fine, but it won’t run the microwave or your wife’s hairdryer on high. I installed a Samlex 2,000 and I like it.
- nice schematic software. Where did you get it?
Dan
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- I'm not sure if 10 g is sufficient to I upsized.. this is the type of feedback I'm looking for, so Thanks!
- Interesting comment about the100 Amp inverter fuse. That is the original fuse supplied by AS. But you are the second person that has indicated it's likely too small.
- We seem to be OK with the stock 1000W inverter. I suspect if I ever have to change it I will upgrade.
- No specific software to make schematics... I used "Keynote" (Apple's version of Powerpoint) to draw the shapes and lines... not slick but it did the job after some fussing.
Thanks for your comments!
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03-06-2019, 01:32 PM
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#4
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Rivet Master
2022 20' Basecamp
1968 17' Caravel
Los Osos
, California
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 613
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AM Solar is a great resource for the DIYer.
https://amsolar.com/rv-solar/support
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03-06-2019, 01:36 PM
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#5
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2 Rivet Member
2019 27' Globetrotter
Sherwood Park
, Alberta
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 95
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Thanks SilverWind
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverWind
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I should have mentioned that I've studied the information available on their site at length. I've also purchased all of the components from them.
Big shout out to Roger who helped me!
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03-06-2019, 05:22 PM
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#6
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2 Rivet Member
Breckenridge
, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 75
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I don't know so I'm asking the question. Is it a good idea to have a battery disconnect for the portable panels and if so, installed before or after the controller? Thanks
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03-06-2019, 06:17 PM
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#7
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Rivet Master
1966 24' Tradewind
1995 34' Excella
Lynchburg
, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,225
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Calling all DIY Solar Upgrade Rockstars
Omnial
I have a portable system with 2 100 watt solar panels in series. My panels were putting out 208 watts at one point a few days ago. Here is a screenshot of the data. The current to the battery, not shown, was 15.3 amps.
If I had 600 watts of solar with three 200 watt sets of panels in parallel, the current to the solar controller would be less than 18 amps (3 x 5.8), so #10 wire is fine here. I agree with the need for #6 wire from the solar controller to the battery.
I think it is good that you will have both permanent and portable panels. Portable panels are by far the best way to go when you are charging the batteries in the winter.
I wouldn’t change your 100 amp fuse. If you get a peak current that sends you over the top and you blow it , then put a 150 amp fuse in.
Dan
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03-06-2019, 06:39 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2018 27' Globetrotter
Apollo Beach
, Florida
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,401
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The factory 10 Gauge wires are sufficient in a series/parallel configuration between the rooftop box and controller. 10 Gauge is rated to carry 30 Amps up to 30'. Three sets of 100W series/parallel connected panels can produce 18 Amps over this wire.
Three sets of 100W series/parallel connected panels (one portable set in your case) can produce 45 Amps on the cable between the controller output and busbars. Although 6 gauge is sufficient, I would use 4 gauge wire. Might as well minimize voltage loss on this wire that you will be installing. Here is a chart showing amp capacity of different gauge wire that I find useful: http://assets.bluesea.com/files/reso...on_chartlg.jpg
__________________
2021 Northern-Lite 10-2 & F350 DRW PSD, 600W Solar/Victron/600A BattleBorn
146 nights 31,000 miles (first 10 months!)
Sold: 2018 GT27Q, 74 nights 12,777 miles
Sold: 2017 FC25FB, 316 nights 40,150 miles
Sold: 2013 Casita SD17 89 nights 16,200 miles
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03-06-2019, 08:02 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
2002 30' Classic S/O
Fleming Island
, Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,668
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Good chart! The trick is to decide what is critical and what is not. I'd be tempted to say that the solar power system is a critical circuit otherwise one is losing a significant portion of the energy being collected.
__________________
“You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"
Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO WBCCI 1322
2002 Classic 30 Slideout -S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins
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03-06-2019, 08:58 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
1966 24' Tradewind
1995 34' Excella
Lynchburg
, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,225
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AirMiles
I like your chart. Thanks! The way I interpret it, peak current would be 45 amps. 99% of the time the current will be less than that. Even at the peak current flow of 45 amps, no need to go with anything bigger than #6 unless your distance from the controller to your batteries is more than 15 ft. I just see no reason to go with #4. However, armed with this chart we all can make the decision that suits us.
Dan
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03-07-2019, 05:15 AM
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#11
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"Hey, I know you!"
Chapin
, South Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 225
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I'm no rockstar, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once...
Your schematic shows 6awg wire battery interconnects and 4 awg battery leads. I read somewhere that the interconnects should be as large or larger than the main leads. I like your schematic, too - a lot better than my stick figure drawings.
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03-07-2019, 06:24 AM
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#12
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2 Rivet Member
2016 27' Flying Cloud
Chicora
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 59
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Looks good. I have the Victron equipment you intend to install and 400 amp-hours LiPo batteries from Battle Born. I love it. I also upgraded the inverter to a Samlex 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter.
Remember, fuses are to protect the wiring.
This comment will likely get me in trouble: In my opinion, some voltage drop between your charge controller and your batteries during the max current levels is okay because your system will rarely operate at max current. As current drops off, the voltage drop between the charge controller and your batteries also drops.
That said, the best time to install larger wire is during your initial installation.
Good luck.
__________________
WBAC #1341
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03-07-2019, 08:39 AM
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#13
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2 Rivet Member
2019 27' Globetrotter
Sherwood Park
, Alberta
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 95
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Crimp or Solder?
Thanks everyone for the feedback so far.
I'll be standardizing on 4 ga. wire rather than mixing 6 ga. and 4 ga. as per my plan since it's cheaper to buy 'in bulk' and there is no harm in having too much gauge.
Since I'm making all of my own connector I'm looking for guidance: Crimp or Solder?
I don't have a crimping tool. I do have a torch and have seen on Youtube about using solder slugs which seem to simplify the process. The lugs I've purchased are only open on one end so solder won't leak out.
What's the best approach?
Thanks.
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03-07-2019, 09:05 AM
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#14
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2 Rivet Member
2019 27' Globetrotter
Edmonton
, Alberta
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 30
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I don't have a crimping tool. I do have a torch and have seen on Youtube about using solder slugs which seem to simplify the process. The lugs I've purchased are only open on one end so solder won't leak out.
I've used fusion lugs for 2/0 cable when installing solar on our old 23D which have the flux and solder preloaded; all you do is heat with a torch until molten and then push in your cable. They work well. You should be able to do something similar by adding flux and solder to your lugs or buy the preloaded ones.
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03-07-2019, 09:07 AM
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#15
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Rivet Master
2012 Avenue Coach
Corpus Christi
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,719
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I'd suggest replacing the stock (junk) Atkinson controller with the Victron as a start. It's the cheapest, easiest thing to do. Then check your output and you may find you're adequate like that, or you can always do the next solar step later.
I experienced about double the solar output when I replaced the Atkinson controller, and most important, it works anytime there is sunlight. Whereas the Atkinson worked when it wanted to, which was almost never.
.
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03-07-2019, 09:50 AM
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#16
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Rivet Master
1966 24' Tradewind
1995 34' Excella
Lynchburg
, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rowiebowie
I'd suggest replacing the stock (junk) Atkinson controller with the Victron as a start. It's the cheapest, easiest thing to do. Then check your output and you may find you're adequate like that, or you can always do the next solar step later.
I experienced about double the solar output when I replaced the Atkinson controller, and most important, it works anytime there is sunlight. Whereas the Atkinson worked when it wanted to, which was almost never.
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I completely agree. I love my Victron controller. It sure is disheartening when a top of the line trailer like Airstream selects less than top of the line components. It really is a disservice to their customers.
Dan
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03-07-2019, 11:17 AM
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#17
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3 Rivet Member
1985 31' Excella
st. Paul
, mn
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 239
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I designed & built alternative energy systems for myself & others .
My last battery bank , 4 x Trojan L16's .
The true tale to tell if someone KNOW's how to design & build a system is how long did there battery bank last - mine last battery bank lasted over 13 yrs.
I was living in my Airstream full time and use everything , air conditioning , micro wave etc.
I lived on one property for over 2 yrs. without any other power source but my solar system - which did not get discharged more than about 40-45% [ a big deal in battery life ] .
The only way to do that is I used 32' bus that was , what I called my tool shed , to hold the batteries , solar panels , inverter [ so I ran a 10ga commercial 100' cord - running AC to trailer ] each battery weighed 135 lbs each , before adding electrolyte = over 540 lbs , that could not be in an Airstream trailer - generally , that kind of weight can only be on the frame , in most floor plans the is the walk-way down the center .
If your going to design / build a system , you need to learn some basics - like Ohm's Law , if nothing else , things like the math with Ohm's Law to figure out the gauge of wire - load carrying capacity .
The 1st thing anyone that knows what they are there doing , to design a system is adding up the load / consumption " 1st " , then if money is an issue , what can you change or eliminate to avoid the cost of gear to supply what you think you want / and can afford .
You did put a lot of effort into this , but you left out some foundation knowledge to design a system , you do not have to be a full blow accredited electrical engineer - but you must use engineering concepts to properly design - systems and get reasonable performance per. cost of that system - my 1st couple lines - getting 13 yrs. out of battery bank that ran the loads mentioned .
I'm not an engineer , but I have taught myself many engineering concepts & formulas , example Ohm's Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law
It is actually very simple - like anything else - use it a few times on a problem you are working with , that will generally help to remember and be able to use in the future .
__________________
85 Excella , 31' , electric brakes , R. twin [ would like it to be a single ] , future upgrades , composting toilet [ replace black water tank with a 2nd fresh ] , solar power , instant hot water heater .
Tow 94 Dodge Ram , 4x4 , Cummins , AT .
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03-07-2019, 01:33 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2004 30' Classic
Johnson City
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnial
I’ll be upgrading the solar on my 2019 Globetrotter and want to run my plans past all of you solar DIY rockstars (you know who you are!). ... I’d appreciate all feedback on the overall solution, as well as any ideas/pointers/issues you may have.
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Recommend reviewing items I listed in this post, especially about the string fuses, GFPD, and solar disconnect (which it seems you have).
Also recommend using the correct solar labeling to protect any first responders, something we hope never happens.
Good luck with your project.
73/gus
__________________
Gus - KR4K : Mary - K5MCL
2004 30ft. Classic
2017 Infiniti QX80 Limited
ProPride 3P/Prodigy P3
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03-11-2019, 11:10 AM
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#19
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Site Team
2017 30' International
Broomfield
, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,555
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Afternoon! Couple thoughts from my perspective.
1. Locate all 3 AGM’s inside the coach - they will perform better at room temperature vs. hot/cold of the exterior battery box.
2. Place the battery disconnect switch on the positive side of the battery, not on the negative side post Shunt.
3. For the shunt, connect the battery temp sensor to a pos terminal of one of the batteries in the battery bank. Then use the bluetooth networking capability of the Victron MPPT and Victron BMV.712 to link the components together, which will enable temperature compensating charging voltage on the MPPT, to maximize performance of the charger when interior temperature is !=70 degrees F..
4. Use 1/0 gauge wire to interconnect the batteries. You can buy it in 12” segments with lugs already attached. Don’t cheap out on these cables. The lifelines are very low resistance batteries, so you want to keep that trend for the exterior parallel connections.
5. I wouldn’t bother with the TV alternator / charge disconnect switch
6. Regarding panels - I highly recommend you do not mix and match panels of different outputs, voltages and rated amps on the same MPPT controller. It will work but you will leave system power output on the table due to performance issues
More on your panel strategy:
Series Connections: remember that voltage is additive, but amperage will be lowest common denominator. Hypothetical example: 2 different panels (80w - 17.5v @ 4.6amps) and (100w - 18.5v @ 5.4amps). In series your maximum potential output of these 2 panels is (17.5+18.5)*(4.6amps) = 164.6 watts (vs 180w). For parallel, amperage is additive, but voltage will be the lowest common denominator. Using these same panels in parallel would yield a theoretical maximum of (17.5v)*(4.6amps+5.4amps) = 175.6watts (vs 180w).
The above is just an example, your results will vary based on your specific panel specifications.
Furthermore, MPPT controllers have a real challenge operating with multiple panels that have more than a 0.3v output difference between them, and will constantly be searching for the sweet spot, and performance will suffer further on your expensive charge controller.
If you are going to the effort of adding panels to the roof, I’d recommend you consider replacing the factory 80w panels with higher performance panels that you can expand on down the road. I’d recommend the AM Solar SP100 (100watt) panels - these are highly efficient and you will actually yield 100w output per panel on a sunny June day, even with a flat configuration (vs. tilt). I’d recommend you consider removing the 2 80w factory panels, and replacing with 3 SP100 panels for a total of 300w power generation on the roof. Wire these in parallel using the existing junction box, MC4 connectors and 10ga factory wire. Factory wire can handle 17.7v @ 16.9amps from these 3 panels. When it’s time to move to 4,5 or more panels on the roof you can upgrade the factory wire 10ga at that time (I run 4ga with 8 panels on the roof for instance).
If you really wanted to you could wire these 3 in series which is easy to do with MC4 connectors, but stay away from any shade whatsoever if you do so our your output on the array will tank. Series may also dictate where exactly you place your panels (ie far away from the AC shroud and other roof items that can cause shading.
Personally, I had 320w with 2 panels in parallel on the roof (previous trailer) with 10ga and it worked great. 400w is another story.
Now that you have a high performance baseline array on the roof, you can re-deploy the two 80w panels you removed for additional ground cover. I would hinge these together to make your own portable suitcase, and then bolt on / reuse the factory PWM controller that came with the trailer, for true plug and play attachment (and again, not to mix and match voltages with your roof top array and MPPT.
You can connect these via the zamp connector at your battery box (after you re-wire it for your interior battery location), and leave them out for trickle charging while in storage, for instance. 100% re-use of your existing hardware, providing > 400watts of power generating between the roof and ground cover.
Lifelines work great, 120ah usable storage isn’t too shabby, and you should be able to fully restore that energy in a single (sunny) day with 400w+ of solar.
Love the Globetrotter, wish it came in a 30'
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03-11-2019, 12:53 PM
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#20
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2 Rivet Member
2019 27' Globetrotter
Sherwood Park
, Alberta
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 95
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Thanks Wulfraat
Quote:
Originally Posted by wulfraat
Afternoon! Couple thoughts from my perspective.
1. Locate all 3 AGM’s inside the coach - they will perform better at room temperature vs. hot/cold of the exterior battery box.
2. Place the battery disconnect switch on the positive side of the battery, not on the negative side post Shunt.
3. For the shunt, connect the battery temp sensor to a pos terminal of one of the batteries in the battery bank. Then use the bluetooth networking capability of the Victron MPPT and Victron BMV.712 to link the components together, which will enable temperature compensating charging voltage on the MPPT, to maximize performance of the charger when interior temperature is !=70 degrees F..
4. Use 1/0 gauge wire to interconnect the batteries. You can buy it in 12” segments with lugs already attached. Don’t cheap out on these cables. The lifelines are very low resistance batteries, so you want to keep that trend for the exterior parallel connections.
5. I wouldn’t bother with the TV alternator / charge disconnect switch
6. Regarding panels - I highly recommend you do not mix and match panels of different outputs, voltages and rated amps on the same MPPT controller. It will work but you will leave system power output on the table due to performance issues
More on your panel strategy:
Series Connections: remember that voltage is additive, but amperage will be lowest common denominator. Hypothetical example: 2 different panels (80w - 17.5v @ 4.6amps) and (100w - 18.5v @ 5.4amps). In series your maximum potential output of these 2 panels is (17.5+18.5)*(4.6amps) = 164.6 watts (vs 180w). For parallel, amperage is additive, but voltage will be the lowest common denominator. Using these same panels in parallel would yield a theoretical maximum of (17.5v)*(4.6amps+5.4amps) = 175.6watts (vs 180w).
The above is just an example, your results will vary based on your specific panel specifications.
Furthermore, MPPT controllers have a real challenge operating with multiple panels that have more than a 0.3v output difference between them, and will constantly be searching for the sweet spot, and performance will suffer further on your expensive charge controller.
If you are going to the effort of adding panels to the roof, I’d recommend you consider replacing the factory 80w panels with higher performance panels that you can expand on down the road. I’d recommend the AM Solar SP100 (100watt) panels - these are highly efficient and you will actually yield 100w output per panel on a sunny June day, even with a flat configuration (vs. tilt). I’d recommend you consider removing the 2 80w factory panels, and replacing with 3 SP100 panels for a total of 300w power generation on the roof. Wire these in parallel using the existing junction box, MC4 connectors and 10ga factory wire. Factory wire can handle 17.7v @ 16.9amps from these 3 panels. When it’s time to move to 4,5 or more panels on the roof you can upgrade the factory wire 10ga at that time (I run 4ga with 8 panels on the roof for instance).
If you really wanted to you could wire these 3 in series which is easy to do with MC4 connectors, but stay away from any shade whatsoever if you do so our your output on the array will tank. Series may also dictate where exactly you place your panels (ie far away from the AC shroud and other roof items that can cause shading.
Personally, I had 320w with 2 panels in parallel on the roof (previous trailer) with 10ga and it worked great. 400w is another story.
Now that you have a high performance baseline array on the roof, you can re-deploy the two 80w panels you removed for additional ground cover. I would hinge these together to make your own portable suitcase, and then bolt on / reuse the factory PWM controller that came with the trailer, for true plug and play attachment (and again, not to mix and match voltages with your roof top array and MPPT.
You can connect these via the zamp connector at your battery box (after you re-wire it for your interior battery location), and leave them out for trickle charging while in storage, for instance. 100% re-use of your existing hardware, providing > 400watts of power generating between the roof and ground cover.
Lifelines work great, 120ah usable storage isn’t too shabby, and you should be able to fully restore that energy in a single (sunny) day with 400w+ of solar.
Love the Globetrotter, wish it came in a 30'
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Thanks so much for your pointers and advice.
1. Yes, I will be relocating all 3 batteries to under the front queen bed.
2. OK, will relocate the switch.
3. Thanks for the tip; I'll be sure to configure it that way.
4. I've received mixed comments on this... I'm a firm believer that more gauge is a good thing so I'll plan to upgrade the battery interconnects. What are your thoughts about the 4 ga. going to the inverter... that is the gauge AS provided in the original configuration (along with the 100Amp fuse).
5. Is there any value in having this for future when I switch to lithium and install a dc-dc converter on the TV charge line?
6. The bad news is that I've already purchased the panels. The good news is they are exactly matched to the factory Zamp panels which are in fact 90 W (18.00v, 5A). So no losses due to mismatches.
Thanks again for your thoughtful review and advice.
Cheers.
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