Tankless and price to operate for propane!!!

[silversled]

Hello-

Why do the Airstream designers discount the fact that when utilizing a tankless water heater, the Airstream owner pays for hot water, especially when you are located at a high end campground charging $ 90-100+ a night? Can someone help me understand “why” they think this is appropriate? I am tired to paying for propane for hot water when I pay for electricity at a campground. Assistance needed… (yes, new tankless water heater)

[Tim A.]

A propane flame is nearly instantly hot. Electric current requirements to achieve that are quite high. For at least household tankless water heaters, 220-240V are usually necessary. Not standard in a trailer.

Tim

[richard5933]

In my opinion the tankless water heaters are not suited for RV trailer living under most circumstances.

As you stated, they consume propane even when you're plugged in - a negative. And when you're not plugged in and dry camping somewhere they consume more water since higher flow is necessary to trigger the heater, thus consuming more water - a negative if you're dry camping.

The only advantage I see is for people who need lots of hot water and are always at a campground, but then they'll of course need lots of propane.

[Bill M.]

"In my opinion the tankless water heaters are not suited for RV trailer living under most circumstances."

First..I totally agree with Richard on the above statement.

Second:

Yes, it takes a huge amount of current to heat water fast at 110 volts. Very heavy wiring and lots of current draw. The 50 amp trailers may be able to do that and still run everything else. My older trailers will not.

So it makes total sense to me to heat water with propane to reduce the electrical load in the trailer. With electric only you could not heat water dry camping..

I have a tanked LP/electric WH and do not plug in the electric even the camping with "free electricity". I just do not need the extra electrical load in my 30 amp trailer. I use about a 30 lb tank of propane a month for cooking, heating, and hot water. I consider the 27 bucks for that a bargain compared to "free" electricity.

[jeffb831]

Are you really concerned about spend $1 on propane when you are spending $100 to camp? Seems pretty much like a rounding error to me.

Also, the propane issue isn't related to tankless or tanked water heaters. Many RV hot water heaters are propane only, regardless of design, to support usage when off-grid where propane is the only option. Have a dual source is possible but it adds complexity, weight, and cost that many don't need.

[Life is a Highway]

That stock tankless is horrible for performance and is a waste of water and propane.

We replaced ours with a Truma unit. And while it performs flawlessly I was upset that Airstream took away the tried and true 6 Gallon unit and made us have to pay for a better replacement.

[Dingo Girl]

Are you really concerned about spend $1 on propane when you are spending $100 to camp? Seems pretty much like a rounding error to me.

I thought the same thing.

[richard5933]

Some people, including us, can only afford to spend the $100/night for camping because we worry about spending the extra $1 on propane.

It's not just the expense of the propane to consider - there is also the hassle of getting the tanks refilled which can be a lot for some if they're staying long term in one spot, camp in areas without easy access to refill points, are not familiar with the process, etc.

[PaulinVA]

Please expand on the conversation. I turn on my tankless water heater only when I need hot water so I’m not heating a tank in anticipation of demand. The recirculating pump also decreases the cold water supplied. I’ve had both types and the tankless seems to be better performing and less maintenance.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by PaulinVA

Please expand on the conversation. I turn on my tankless water heater only when I need hot water so I’m not heating a tank in anticipation of demand. The recirculating pump also decreases the cold water supplied. I’ve had both types and the tankless seems to be better performing and less maintenance.

From everything I've read, the required flow on the tankless is high enough that it is necessary to use much more water for a shower if you want hot water. With a traditional hot water heater the water is just as hot no matter how slow you drip it out of the shower head, but on the tankless the burners won't kick on unless the required flow rate is met. For people dry camping/boondocking this means running through a tank of water more quickly.

It's also possible to leave a traditional hot water heater turned off till it's needed. In the summer months it will stay warm enough for hand washing and dishes for quite a while and only needs to be turned on 20-30 minutes prior to a shower.

[kb0zke]

Ten years full-timing here.


Our 1993 Foretravel MH came with a propane and engine heat hot water. When it died I replaced it with a propane/electric/engine heat model. That was great. We had hot water whenever we wanted it. The engine heat only worked when the Detroit was running, of course, but when we arrived at the campground we had a tank of hot water. I could decide whether to use gas or electric to heat the water while parked.


We sold the Foretravel and bought a 2022 Grand Design Reflection 315 RLTS, which had a tankless on-demand hot water heater. I mention the specific trailer in case you want to look up the floorplan. The bathroom was very compact, with the hot water heater located literally between the shower and the bathroom sink. We got hot water in those two places fairly quickly. The kitchen sink was 10-12 feet away, and it took quite a while to get hot water. When boondocking I only washed dishes once a day because of the wasted water.


Now we have an Airstream with a tankless hot water heater. The unit is located close to the bathroom sink, with the shower across the hall and the sink farther away. I can't get water hot enough to wash dishes, so I heat water using the microwave and an electric kettle.


Both the Airstream and Grand Design had similar control units, although they are two different brands. Both set at 124*F. The next time the mobile mechanic is around I'm going to ask him about switching to a tank hot water heater.

[swat2]

I installed a Shower Miser with our factory Girard tankless water heater and it very effectively conserves water and propane use in our '22 GT 27 FBT. We mostly boondock and easily get 4-5 nights out of a 37 gal. tank of fresh water without feeling to deprived... two hot showers per day, washing dishes for three meals each day, flushing toilet and washing hands as needed. We turn on the Shower Miser in recirculation mode to heat water in the line prior to dish washing, and it's hot by the time we rinse. I typically wipe the dishes with a paper towel prior to washing and catch the rinse water in a plastic tub in the kitchen sink. When the tub is half full or so, I usually pour it into the black tank thru the toilet. This helps conserve gray tank capacity and ensures plenty of flow when dumping black tank, which fills much slower than the gray tank.

[JeffKim]

This thread puzzles me. The OP is complaining about the tankless water heater and paying for propane, I haven't heard that it uses more propane than a tank, does it? It's not burning propane until there's water flow, that's the whole point. There's some waste heat I suppose if the water stays in the lines, but that's true of a tank too.

The tankless water heater is here to stay, so I guess find a way to live with it or spend $1,800 on the Truma. It seems the hate is dependent on the floor plan, with our 25' FB the hot water heater isn't too far from the bathroom, shower, and kitchen sink, so we don't have many complaints. I will probably put in a water recirculator for the shower eventually, but I don't see it as an $1,800 problem. I'll buy more Victron toys first.

[JeffKim]

Originally Posted by kb0zke

I can't get water hot enough to wash dishes, so I heat water using the microwave and an electric kettle.

We have no trouble but then we have a 25'. I'm wondering how this is a function of the type of water heater? The on-demand can't keep up? Or the water cools by the time it gets to the sink?

[daleyocum]

Originally Posted by JeffKim

This thread puzzles me. The OP is complaining about the tankless water heater and paying for propane, I haven't heard that it uses more propane than a tank, does it? It's not burning propane until there's water flow, that's the whole point. There's some waste heat I suppose if the water stays in the lines, but that's true of a tank too.

The tankless water heater is here to stay, so I guess find a way to live with it or spend $1,800 on the Truma. It seems the hate is dependent on the floor plan, with our 25' FB the hot water heater isn't too far from the bathroom, shower, and kitchen sink, so we don't have many complaints. I will probably put in a water recirculator for the shower eventually, but I don't see it as an $1,800 problem. I'll buy more Victron toys first.

I think the OP is comparing it to a traditional 6gal water heater which typically have the choice of propane or electric heating with electric being "free" at full service campgrounds.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by JeffKim

This thread puzzles me. The OP is complaining about the tankless water heater and paying for propane, I haven't heard that it uses more propane than a tank, does it? It's not burning propane until there's water flow, that's the whole point. There's some waste heat I suppose if the water stays in the lines, but that's true of a tank too.

The tankless water heater is here to stay, so I guess find a way to live with it or spend $1,800 on the Truma. It seems the hate is dependent on the floor plan, with our 25' FB the hot water heater isn't too far from the bathroom, shower, and kitchen sink, so we don't have many complaints. I will probably put in a water recirculator for the shower eventually, but I don't see it as an $1,800 problem. I'll buy more Victron toys first.

The original point was comparing the tankless (propane only) water heater against a traditional propane/electric water heater, with the complaint being that when plugged in at a campground the electric is already bought and paid for so why pay extra for using propane.

Important to note that many of us have a traditional water heater which is also propane only, so heating water on electric is not an option for everyone with a 6-gal water heater.

And no, I don't accept that the current situation with tankless as the only option is 'here to stay'. Airstream, like other manufacturers still have to listen to customers buying habits, and if enough people complain (and there are other options available) things could go in a different direction. One of these could be Airstream installing the recirculating system in the factory, especially for the new models aimed at the boondocking segment of the community.

[thiel]

At every Airstream dealer we should station a volunteer who can roll their eyes when the salesperson starts talking about the tankless water heater and the electric awning.

[JeffKim]

Originally Posted by daleyocum

I think the OP is comparing it to a traditional 6gal water heater which typically have the choice of propane or electric heating with electric being "free" at full service campgrounds.

Ah! Thanks for the clarification. I am enlightened.

[JeffKim]

Originally Posted by richard5933

The original point was comparing the tankless (propane only) water heater against a traditional propane/electric water heater, with the complaint being that when plugged in at a campground the electric is already bought and paid for so why pay extra for using propane.

Important to note that many of us have a traditional water heater which is also propane only, so heating water on electric is not an option for everyone with a 6-gal water heater.

And no, I don't accept that the current situation with tankless as the only option is 'here to stay'. Airstream, like other manufacturers still have to listen to customers buying habits, and if enough people complain (and there are other options available) things could go in a different direction. One of these could be Airstream installing the recirculating system in the factory, especially for the new models aimed at the boondocking segment of the community.

Thanks for the clarification.

I think the recirculating system is standard in the Trade Wind and the 2025 Globetrotter.

[sfranklin]

It's an RV, you are always going to have some trade offs. For some it's the 12v compressor fridge, for others it's the POS Girrard and in this case LP water heater in general. Even the dual 120v/LP units had limitations.

Every time I find I get a bit antsy about something about the Airstream that pulls my chain, I have to keep in perspective that it's an RV, not a house and I may use the RV for at best 25-30 days a season while still working full-time. Yes there are some genuine issues that need to be solved, but how much more money to throw at it?

I needed a new roof a few years back, architectural high end shingles were about $11k installed, including removal of the old roof, ice shielding, etc. I wanted a Tesla solar roof as I didn't want the big panels parked on top. Having taken the then rebate into account 3 years go, the cost of the asphalt roof and the cost of the solar shingles, i figured at $200/mo util bill I could pay for all my electricity usage for nearly 26 years. My point, it's an RV, and in most cases a depreciating asset. How much are you gonna throw at the problem, and btw, never get into a decent hail storm because the trailer will be totaled in a New York second, and the insurance companies could care less what expensive water heater you installed.

If this trailer ever became my residence, I would prob have a different take. To me spending $100/night on a campsite, or around that amount seems to be very close to the norms in a lot of places for nice places with full hookups.

I loved the thing that was said that saving $1 affords them to stay in $100/night campgrounds....if you really want to get into costs....

Fuel (Hundreds to thousands per trip)
Campsite ($30-$100/night)
Maint/repair ($250 estimate)
Acquisition costs for TV and trailer ($190k new trailer and new truck)
Insurance ($1k/yr)
Supplies (water, LP, etc) ($250, estimate)

If you have to try to save $1 or $10 in LP to afford $100/night after having spent any or all of the above, fugal just doesn't seem to cover it.