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Old 02-23-2009, 06:46 PM   #1
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Proposed Waste Water Layout

Hi,
I have drawn a diagram of my waste water layout for my 60 Tradewind and was hoping for some feed back. My specific questions/worries:

Can I vent only the tanks and not each fixture (like the diagram shows) (and if I should vent each fixture and don't, what will be the consequence)?

Can the Black and Gray Tank vents join together (like the diagram shows)?

And lastly, are there any issues/problems anyone sees with this layout.
Thanks for your help.
MarkR
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:08 PM   #2
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I might connect the kitchen sink drain to the vent as well to keep water in that trap. I think it might otherwise be drawn into the wash water tank. Our '65 Caravel has such a vent.

What does your physics teacher say? Anyone?
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:56 PM   #3
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How many vents do you currently have in the coach? Mine has 3. Two in the rear for the shower and sink and one for the kitchen amidships. I like your plan for the new gray tank.
I would connect the kitchen sink drain to the tank vent and eliminate the extra fitting on the gray tank under the floor.
I would also add a vent to the common bath sink and shower drain with a stack coming up the curbside wall. This would eliminate possible gurgling in the bathroom fixtures when the kitchen sink is emptied. It would also provide a backup if one vent became plugged.

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Old 02-23-2009, 08:19 PM   #4
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I agree. If there is no vent for the bathroom sink, that trap may empty as well.

The traps should keep water in them in order to prevent odor from coming back from the tanks.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:01 PM   #5
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Mark,

Keep in mind that in a house you can have a drain line up to six feet without a vent. I'd be concerned with your kitchen drain line. I'd look at adding a vent to the kitchen drain line. It should connect with a sanitary T so it will mix air before the six foot mark.

I like Tom's idea of adding a vent to the shower side, except I'd connect the vent to the bathroom sink line, since it is the longest?

What type of tanks are you using? How are you attaching the gray tank to the belly of the trailer? I'm getting ready to do the same. Both my tanks are mounting below the floor.

Nice drawing by the way, mine are totally illegible- like my handwriting.
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:52 AM   #6
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I'm with Ryan, nice drawing! How did you do it?
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Old 02-24-2009, 09:33 AM   #7
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Yeah, no kidding, that is a fantastic drawing!

I like the suggestions above, and one other suggestion I would make is that where your black and gray vent lines "y" together on the street side, make that union fairly high up on the wall, so that the gases as well as the drain water don't mix below sink level. It's probably not likely this will happen, but better safe than sorry.

By the way, I think it's fine to tie those two vent lines together, that is the original configuration on my trailer and many others.

Ryan--

My new gray tank is mounted under the floor and has a flange or lip that extends out at the top, and slides comfortably into the c-channel portion of one main frame rail, and the c-channel portion of one x-member. Then I have a removeable support that bolts in from below that supports the lip of the other long side of the tank, with a stop welded on at one end to box the tank in completely. I made it removeable in case I ever need to pull the gray tank to service it, or the floor above it. You can see pictures of this on my blog linked below if you're interested, sometime around mid-December is when I received the trailer back from my frame welder. Just to note, it DOES hang below the belly-pan by several inches. I decided I liked the bigger size I could achieve with this setup.

I'm watching your project with great interest, you guys are blazing fast, keep it up!

-Marcus
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:58 PM   #8
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Currently or previously I should say, I only had one vent, it was attached directly to the very small black tank - and after taking off the interior panel I found that it had long since rotted away so the venting was taking place in the walls. There was no gray tank and those lines didn't have any venting.

So it sounds like my theory that having the tanks vented ("unclosed") would be sufficient to prevent the traps from "siphoning thru" is not valid. I just thought that the reason traps would otherwise run dry was because they're normally in a closed system. The real reason (probably obvious) I wanted to only vent the tanks is I'm lazy - I didn't want to take more interior panels off . . . just trying to keep the worms in the can so to speak.

I bought my gray tank from ppl (and it wasn't shown on their website). I'll attach the measurement diagram they gave me. It's going to be installed just like Marcus describes above, and Ryan, I'm going to guess your 59 frame is basically the same. The tank does hang lower than the belly pan but if you keep it close to the axle it shouldn't cause problems AND you can hardly see it (that's my opinion anyway). I'll attach a detail section thru the tank/frame.

I really appreciate the comments/help/advice.
Thanks, MarkR
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Old 02-24-2009, 06:17 PM   #9
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I added a single holding tank to my last trailer (a '59 18 footer). It was mounted fully below the frame and was approx. 9" from the ground. I never had any problems with clearance. The black tank I am getting ready to mount (this weekend I hope) will be 5-6" below the frame, so 10-11' ground clearance.

My gray tank will mount in a similar way to Mark's gray tank. The image on the right is really helpful for me to see. My big concern is the C channel is made of steel that was 1/16" 50 years ago and is a bit thinner now. Will that bottom lip of the C hold half of a 30 gallon tank? That's 120 lb. +/- bumping down the road. What are you going to do on the thin side to keep the tank in there? I am struggling with trying desperately to not over engineer the mount. When I'm not sure if it's enough, I like to throw a bunch of heavy steel at it. Then I weld the s**t out of it. I'd like to get to the 'less is more' state before the tanks come in the mail.

Have you thought about dump valves, etc.?
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Old 02-24-2009, 06:23 PM   #10
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Marcus,

I saw the photos of the tank supports on your blog. Nice work! Pictures really are worth a thousand words. I've had something similar in mind, only with more bolts. The black tank on it's way has no mounting flanges, so I'll have to supply something to cradle it from below.
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:07 PM   #11
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Great diagrams and advice from all! Here is our gray tank installation, very similar to yours in a 62' Flying Cloud

http://www.airforums.com/forums/blog...tallation-144/

http://www.airforums.com/forums/blog...on-update-166/

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Old 02-24-2009, 08:01 PM   #12
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Mark

You can check my thread http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...ent-38289.html pages 13-16, installed 2 grays and 1 black.
Will start posting to thread in March, this has been a very bad record breaking Michigan winter.

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Old 02-24-2009, 11:57 PM   #13
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Hi Mark,
I was just about ready to start a new thread on venting questions when I ran accross yours. Actually I think your original thoughts are correct. Our trailer came w/ no tanks, but everything was vented via a single 1 1/2 inch pipe that terminated under a streamlined roof cap. I think I'm going to stick w/ this method, but add black & gray tnks, of course.
Your Dwg. shows a raised shower pan. I'm just wondering if that will cause any headroom issues. Ours had a mid bath with the shower outbd. There's just no way it would have been comfortable for me. So we're going to great effort to swap positions w/ the toilet. P-trap will probably hang below belly an inch or so w/ a protective cover.
Just some thoughts - good luck w/ your project.
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:40 AM   #14
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Old Nuke -- Good to hear from you! Sounds like everyone here is adding the same stuff.I like the bathroom setup in your trailer, having everything in the middle like that.
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:04 AM   #15
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MarkR-- More fantastic drawings, I wish I could draw like that, outstanding work. Sounds like you've got a handle on it now, and thanks for starting this very timely thread, as I am about a week away from getting to the drain/venting plumbing on mine. My tank was also from PPL and looks quite similar to yours, I think mine is model H664.

Toastie-- I can't wait for you to get back to work on your trailer. I love watching your progress.

Ryan-- First I'll say my gray tank mounting idea is completlely ripped off from Frank aka 62Overlander, if you haven't checked out his Annalumanum blog you should. And I'd say mine is definitely "over-engineered" but that's okay. I'm adding some weight in some areas, but I'll be subtracting it in others, like when I toss my giant broke-down furnace next year. If you checked through my blog, you'll see that I replaced the rear three frame x-members with new steel c-channel, and the x-member that supports the new gray tank happens to be one of the new ones. This was fortuitous for two reasons, the first of which is that it's stronger than the old x-member that was there. But the second reason is that the old x-members has a very shallow lip and, as you say, it's 46-year-old steel that was thinning in some areas. The new one is a full c-channel, just like the main frame rail, and has plenty of "lip" to support the tank flange. And the other long-wise support is the removeable one of course. There is no support at all on the back edge (no tank flange there anyway), but the two supports for the long sides should be plenty adequate.

So, due to the frame x-member replacements I performed, I didn't really face the same issue that you're talking about. Potential solutions for your issue would be to weld in a new steel x-member made of c-channel, or to weld a new lower "lip" onto an existing x-member, in order to support the new gray tank.

I also don't plan to drive great distances with a full gray tank. Ideally I'll be able to dump it somewhere nearby when I exit a campsite. But, I believe my supports are engineered to withstand a long pull if need be.

Great thread, very informative.

-Marcus
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:35 AM   #16
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I was an art major in college, and my technical drawings aren't as nice as that. Very nice work.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:05 AM   #17
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MarkR,
Both my '06 and '87 have only one vent pipe protruding from the roof. And both of my trailers have anti-siphon devices in the drain pluming. So you may be able to get by with one vent pipe as long as you use one of these anti-siphon devices in your drain runs.

I got this pictures



From this web site

Vent Pro - RV Parts, RV Supplies & RV Accessories for 5th Wheels, ToyHaulers, Campers

But I will post better pictures of one of the anti-siphon devices that is installed in one of my trailers when I get home from work tonight.

Hopefully you didn't cut that second hole in the roof yet
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Old 02-25-2009, 04:23 PM   #18
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As promised, here are some pictures of the anti-siphon device in our '87. There is one under the kitchn sink and one under the sink in the head. There is nothing remarkable about the installation other than they probably need to be above the "P" trap. Let us know what you decide.

PS - Nice technical drawing too.
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:43 PM   #19
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Marcus,

Nice to hear there is a significant amount of steel supporting both sides of your tank. My tanks are due to come in on Friday, so the head scratching begins Friday night... I plan on building up the frames with angle iron welded to the main part of the frame.

DIETZ645,

I've thought of using a device like this to vent the black tank. I was advised not to by a reputable RV shop in town because 'stuff' could get in the valve and block it open. What is the distance between the top of the tank and valve? Were those installed by the factory? I could hide one of those in a cabinet and no one would ever know...
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r&kweber View Post
DIETZ645,

I've thought of using a device like this to vent the black tank. I was advised not to by a reputable RV shop in town because 'stuff' could get in the valve and block it open. What is the distance between the top of the tank and valve? Were those installed by the factory? I could hide one of those in a cabinet and no one would ever know...
R&KWeber,
Those anti-siphon devices are on both our '06 and '87 and they came that way from the factory. But both the lines that they are on drain into the gray tank. I don't think the black tank would need an anti-siphon device becuase there are no "P" traps in the plumbing leading to the black tank. The only thing that drains to the black tank is the throne and that is a straight shot. I will have to look and see where our black tank plumbs into the vent pipe (somewhere in the closet I am sure). The devices are about 2-3 feet above the floor and the tanks are under the floor in both my coaches. I think the important thing is to have them higher than the "P" trap. In the kitchen pictures you can see the elevation above the traps.
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