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12-16-2017, 12:38 PM
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#1
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Moderator
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground
, Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,253
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Need advice before I wreck my plumbing
This summer the shelf in the bathroom cabinet on the Caravel fell apart on a trip. While considering how I would replace it, I realized that with it out of the way, I suddenly have access to the huge space under the sink. The cabinet door is only 12" x 13", but that would be big enough to slip a small grey tank in there.
A friend previously put a grey tank in this location on his Caravel. It is a good location because the pipes from the kitchen and bathroom sink converge there anyway. The shower is not a concern for us. Attached is a picture of the plumbing inside the bathroom cabinet. The actual pipe that goes up to the vent is on the other side of the wall, in the closet.
I've also posted two sketches, one of the existing drain system, one with proposed changes. My questions:
1) Is there is a reason for the bathroom sink to currently have such a long drop between the sink and the trap?
2) Is there any problem with diverting the water to a tank, and then adding a small valve to drain the tank?
3) Any advice on doing this? Will I be able to find pipe fittings that will match the old pipe that's in there? Is it a standard size?
4) I've found a place online that sells tanks in a variety of sizes. http://www.plasticwatertanks.com/c/r...tanks-for-sale so if I proceed I will need to figure out what sort of fittings I will want on the tank.
Any advice? Fire away!
__________________
Stephanie
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12-16-2017, 01:00 PM
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#2
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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Weight is the only thing I can think of, as the farther from the axles the greater the force exerted.
Would you install a bicycle rack on the rear of the TT? (Polar moment of inertia; not just frame strength).
It’s that sort of problem.
I’m not saying it’s wrong to do so. But I’d have thought AS would have to addressed this once grey tanks were made mandatory for 1972. What was the change?
And of how much benefit will it be?
What are the consequences of s full grey tank cracked and flowing into trailer?
.
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12-16-2017, 01:12 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
1991 25' Excella
2011 19' Flying Cloud
Santa Ynez
, California
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,185
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As to questions...
No. 1 No, there is no reason to have a long tail piece(drop) from the sink, when I plumb a house I keep this as short as possible for two reasons, 1 being it frees up space under sink cabinet and the other being the drain is quieter when water does not fall so far into the P trap.
No. 2 I see no reason why not.
No. 3 The pipe used is regular ABS plastic in 1-1/2" and 2"
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
Will Rogers
Alan
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12-16-2017, 03:09 PM
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#4
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Moderator
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground
, Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover
Weight is the only thing I can think of, as the farther from the axles the greater the force exerted.
Would you install a bicycle rack on the rear of the TT? (Polar moment of inertia; not just frame strength).
It’s that sort of problem.
I’m not saying it’s wrong to do so. But I’d have thought AS would have to addressed this once grey tanks were made mandatory for 1972. What was the change?
And of how much benefit will it be?
What are the consequences of s full grey tank cracked and flowing into trailer?
.
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I have considered the extra weight back there, but I don't intend to travel with it full, same as the black tank. We always empty it as soon as possible at the end of our trip. After all, the 12 gallon black tank is back there in the other corner of the bathroom, a 7 gallon grey tank on the sink side shouldn't make much difference.
I think it would be a big benefit, right now we can't do much other than wash our hands between stops. I think a 7 gallon tank would hold enough for a weekend. And some campgrounds don't like blueboys and demand you be fully contained, so this would get us around that problem.
Basically I was looking at upgrading and considered, how much am I going to pay to upgrade to a different trailer, or just keep the trailer I already love and add the few things it is missing? Grey water storage is definitely one of them.
__________________
Stephanie
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12-16-2017, 03:26 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
1988 25' Excella
1987 32' Excella
Knoxville
, Tennessee
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,101
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Sounds like a good plan to me. I would not want to have a trailer without a gray tank at all.
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12-16-2017, 03:29 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
1991 25' Excella
2011 19' Flying Cloud
Santa Ynez
, California
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,185
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^^Agree^^
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
Will Rogers
Alan
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12-16-2017, 05:55 PM
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#7
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
I have considered the extra weight back there, but I don't intend to travel with it full, same as the black tank. We always empty it as soon as possible at the end of our trip. After all, the 12 gallon black tank is back there in the other corner of the bathroom, a 7 gallon grey tank on the sink side shouldn't make much difference.
I think it would be a big benefit, right now we can't do much other than wash our hands between stops. I think a 7 gallon tank would hold enough for a weekend. And some campgrounds don't like blueboys and demand you be fully contained, so this would get us around that problem.
Basically I was looking at upgrading and considered, how much am I going to pay to upgrade to a different trailer, or just keep the trailer I already love and add the few things it is missing? Grey water storage is definitely one of them.
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Sounds like you’ve considered it all. I don’t know enough to offer any opinion about composting toilets, and I assumed you’d already explored that.
Good luck!
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12-16-2017, 06:32 PM
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#8
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Rivet Master
1986 34' Limited
1975 27' Overlander
1969 21' Globetrotter
Conifer
, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,289
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Don't tell anyone, but I know a fellow Airstreamer who has a grey water tank with a 3/4" valve on the tank drain line. He looks for "dirty highways" and cracks open the valve and lets the gray water (wash water) drip away cleaning the road on his way to the next destination. 10 gallons an hour is not a high flow rate.
You do have to decide how you will dump the above floor gray tank. Straight down dump valves and connections are hard to connect to under the trailer. Our 69 Globetrotter has an above floor12 gallon black tank and a straight down dump valve with the gray water draining into the manifold before the dump valve. It is a poor design in my view. It has been scraped of the back of the trailer more than once.
7 gallons of water would weigh over 50 pounds. It's best not to stress your frame with that much additional weight in the back. Mostly empty tanks is the best way to tow. I like a little water in the black tank to keep it wet.
You might consider Inca Plastics in California as a tank supplier. I have purchased four plastic tanks from them with no problems. Just download their catalog and go shopping for the tank that will fit your space and drain requirements. Then give them a call with your order.
http://www.incaplastics.com/
David
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12-16-2017, 08:22 PM
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#9
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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Don’t tell anyone? Just tell them to Google “squirrel hole”. Ha!
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12-16-2017, 09:13 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
1962 22' Safari
2016 30' Classic
Southeast
, Michigan
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,986
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Regarding question 1, plumbing code requires the p-trap exit into a horizontal pipe that has a vent pipe going to the roof. It is my belief that the trap was put low to allow the horizontal pipe from the p-trap to connect properly with the vent pipe going to the roof.
If you change the piping to put the p-trap higher, keep in mind that it will still need to go into a horizontal pipe for some distance according to code and decide if you will still be able to connect it to the vent pipe without dipping lower. Otherwise, I believe code will allow you to add an air admittance valve after the p-trap if you can no longer connect to the vent pipe at the level of the p-trap exit.
I do not believe your proposed diagram meets these code requirements.
__________________
Joe
Wally Byam Caravan Club International Historian
Vintage Airstream Club Historian
WBCCI/VAC #702 & #6768
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12-16-2017, 09:20 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
1991 25' Excella
2011 19' Flying Cloud
Santa Ynez
, California
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66Overlander
Regarding question 1, plumbing code requires the p-trap exit into a horizontal pipe that has a vent pipe. It is my belief that the trap was put low to allow the horizontal pipe from the p-trap to connect properly with the vent pipe going to the roof.
If you change the piping to put the p-trap higher, keep in mind that it will still need to go into a horizontal pipe for some distance according to code and decide if you will still be able to connect it to the vent pipe. Otherwise, I believe code will allow you to add an air admittance valve after the p-trap if you can no longer connect to the vent pipe.
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Wye comment on something you know knowthing about?
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
Will Rogers
Alan
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12-16-2017, 09:37 PM
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#12
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Rivet Master
1991 25' Excella
2011 19' Flying Cloud
Santa Ynez
, California
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,185
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And to add this is a travel trailer. And were did you read they would raise the trap level above the vent ?
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
Will Rogers
Alan
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12-16-2017, 09:40 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
1962 22' Safari
2016 30' Classic
Southeast
, Michigan
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,986
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AlinCal,
I looked at the proposed diagram that shows the pipe dropping after the trap before connecting to the vent pipe.
And why imply I know nothing about what I am saying in your previous post? That is not very nice.
__________________
Joe
Wally Byam Caravan Club International Historian
Vintage Airstream Club Historian
WBCCI/VAC #702 & #6768
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12-16-2017, 09:42 PM
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#14
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Moderator
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground
, Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66Overlander
Regarding question 1, plumbing code requires the p-trap exit into a horizontal pipe that has a vent pipe going to the roof. It is my belief that the trap was put low to allow the horizontal pipe from the p-trap to connect properly with the vent pipe going to the roof.
If you change the piping to put the p-trap higher, keep in mind that it will still need to go into a horizontal pipe for some distance according to code and decide if you will still be able to connect it to the vent pipe without dipping lower. Otherwise, I believe code will allow you to add an air admittance valve after the p-trap if you can no longer connect to the vent pipe at the level of the p-trap exit.
I do not believe your proposed diagram meets these code requirements.
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Interesting, I'll see what I can find out about that. I figured there must be some reason for how they built it.
__________________
Stephanie
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12-16-2017, 09:46 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
1962 22' Safari
2016 30' Classic
Southeast
, Michigan
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
Interesting, I'll see what I can find out about that. I figured there must be some reason for how they built it.
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I wondered the same thing on my 1962 Safari that also has a low bathroom sink trap. A little research of plumbing codes eventually lead me to the answer.
__________________
Joe
Wally Byam Caravan Club International Historian
Vintage Airstream Club Historian
WBCCI/VAC #702 & #6768
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12-17-2017, 10:44 AM
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#16
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Rivet Master
2017 16' Sport
N/A
, N/A
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
This summer the shelf in the bathroom cabinet on the Caravel fell apart on a trip. While considering how I would replace it, I realized that with it out of the way, I suddenly have access to the huge space under the sink. The cabinet door is only 12" x 13", but that would be big enough to slip a small grey tank in there.
A friend previously put a grey tank in this location on his Caravel. It is a good location because the pipes from the kitchen and bathroom sink converge there anyway. The shower is not a concern for us. Attached is a picture of the plumbing inside the bathroom cabinet. The actual pipe that goes up to the vent is on the other side of the wall, in the closet.
I've also posted two sketches, one of the existing drain system, one with proposed changes. My questions:
1) Is there is a reason for the bathroom sink to currently have such a long drop between the sink and the trap?
2) Is there any problem with diverting the water to a tank, and then adding a small valve to drain the tank?
3) Any advice on doing this? Will I be able to find pipe fittings that will match the old pipe that's in there? Is it a standard size?
4) I've found a place online that sells tanks in a variety of sizes. http://www.plasticwatertanks.com/c/r...tanks-for-sale so if I proceed I will need to figure out what sort of fittings I will want on the tank.
Any advice? Fire away!
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Maybe this is a solution, Run the plastic tubing directly from your sink to the outside, add a container outside for the gray water. You can then dispose of it through your other black / gray system. If this doesn't work for you, you can always complete a system as you proposed. Just a thought.
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12-17-2017, 11:56 AM
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#17
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Rivet Master
2016 30' Classic
Hinckley
, Ohio
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 907
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Need advice before I wreck my plumbing
The sink drain drops down and connects to the shower base then exits. You forgot about the shower.
__________________
My budget won't stop me from buying something online that I don't need, but the threat of getting promotional
emails every day for the rest of my life just might!
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12-17-2017, 02:37 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central
, Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,919
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Just below the floor, install a dump valve. Just above the floor install a T into the existing drain line. Run the new leg of the T into the bottom of your new gray tank. Tie the top of the tank into the vent. No modifications to the existing system and the tank fills from the bottom upward.
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12-17-2017, 02:50 PM
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#19
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Moderator
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground
, Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV
Just below the floor, install a dump valve. Just above the floor install a T into the existing drain line. Run the new leg of the T into the bottom of your new gray tank. Tie the top of the tank into the vent. No modifications to the existing system and the tank fills from the bottom upward.
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I had not thought about doing it that way, but that actually seems like a pretty simple way to implement it without messing with the rest of it.
__________________
Stephanie
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12-18-2017, 05:31 PM
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#20
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central
, Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
I had not thought about doing it that way, but that actually seems like a pretty simple way to implement it without messing with the rest of it.
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Make sure the new dump valve is before the shower drain ties into the system. Otherwise the gray tank fills at the same rate as the shower pan (yuck)
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