2005 30' Land Yacht 30 SL
Castro Valley
, California
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene
Sounds like a great idea though the reviews say it is not too accurate. Maybe a better one will come out.
Gene
A little inaccuracy is no big problem if I'm only going for about half full, and I'm shopping today to see if I can buy the meter. I think about the "sprint when the sensor goes red" and then tripping, and sitting on the gorund as the overflow starts to wash over the top on to my head.
I'm using the Sewer Solution and backwashing with that as well, will just add meters to the inputs for peace of mind.
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Cliff & Andrea,
two snowshoe cats, have not been camping yet
OK guys, last chance for version 1 as I am ordering boards in the next couple days, could today, but will defer until Monday to get your feedback. A "better mousetrap" for tank monitoirng and control is going to alpha site (hand built final design) shortly. The unit measures "pressure" similar to your microcpulse stuff, but on steriods. The sensor and electronics are totally isolated from tank fluids and environment and should resolve all your reliability problems. System measures can be calibrated in percent (very easy) or custom calibrated with a flow meter to achieve 0.1 gallon accuracies (and better if needed) but this is far more accurate then you need.
I need some information as I may be able to automate your flush needs. To calibrate the unit it contains an input used to monitor a flow meter during calibration, as well as an output that controls a "sprinkler water valve" that is used to automatically turn on and off water through a garden hose during calibration. AFTER calibration, if done, the input and output are available for "other stuff". I debated using it for "automatic water tank filling" where you would connect up water line, hit button, it would fill clear water tank and shut off. I didn't do it as I was told not necessary. If configured, this output can be activated with the configurable "high" or "low" level alarms. These alarms change screen colors for each tank, can optionally beep at you, but this output "could" possibly be used for what you are talking aboutl.
Right now this output is configurable to "turn on" either above a high level alarm or "turn on" below a low level alarm. I could "add" a feature where this output could be activated by "pushing a button" and then deactivated by a high or low level trip point. If we can clarify the need, I will clearly have the desired functionality added before final product release.
Ya, I know, you don't see vendors being so open about pending products, but I kind of like to get stuff right the first time. I will be offering an "upgrade service" so "new functionality can be added to your unit" by returning for update and/or service, but again, would prefer to improve the customer experience whereever I can.
Please help me understand your desires and I will provide a specific operational description here for your confirmation and approval. Unit does communicate with other modules, so functionality could be added there, but his one may work in the standard unit.
Would the following meet your needs?
1) You connect a water valve (sprinker valve) to the black water tank flush fitting, either temporarily or permanently if you like.
2) Plug in water valve. You would have to run a wire from tank gauge to water valve location. This could again be temporary or permanent, your choice.
3) Connect hose to water vavle.
4) Go to tank gauge and select "Black Flush" or something like that.
5) Press "Start" and system will turn on water valve and add water until it reaches "high level alarm point". You can set this for any level you would like.
6) When high level alarm point is reached, water turns off, and unit beeps at you a couple of times so you can put down your beer and go complete your job.
I could make it so you could do this for "any tank" fill. Of course I would stop filling if say you selected "Black Flush" and all of a sudden when the valve turned on that the "Clear Water" starting rising!
Would this work for you, or again, is this totally glitz and not needed? Your comments are appreciated.
I am unsure of whether you are discussing the monitoring system for all tanks, or a measuring system for backflushing the black and grey tanks.
I appreciate that you want feedback to build better products even though I have trouble understanding what you are saying, so I'll try to respond.
First, keep it simple. I have plenty of electronic stuff that has gazillions of options that I don't care about and will never use, but do not want to pay for (sort of like cable or satellite TV—lots of garbage channels I have to pay for that I never watch). All that cool stuff that is useless to most people may be fine for the technophile, but most people are not.
If the former, after a while most of us seem to figure out what is in the tanks regardless of the inaccuracy of the OEM system. Any aftermarket monitor would have to be easy to install and cheap to buy; I have no interest in removing the belly pan to install new sensors. If you can use a pressure sensor (you wrote about pressure) installed in an easy place to reach (hard in an RV) with wireless and batteries that last for a very long time, that might be a seller. Otherwise the market would be RV companies when they build them.
If the latter, which I think is what you are actually asking, all I would want was a gauge that measured how much water goes in the tank for backflushing and is accurate (and of course, cheap). All that was needed would be a paddle in the line and something like an odometer for a non-electronic solution, but maybe an electronic model would be cost effective and simple too. It would have garden hose fittings. I don't need a gauge for filling the fresh water tank since when it fills, it overflows.
CrawfordGene: This is a aftermarket product, hopefully becomes OEM through time as it corrects the reliability problems with existing tank level monitors. If I used the existing sensors, where connector failures are common, I wouldn't fix the problem.
Initially only those whom need to "replace a system" or are so disatisfied with sensor faults and such would likely buy the system.
The system referenced follows KISS principle. All levels and battery voltage on one screen. Push on/off button it displays levels. If you don't press on/off again, it turns off after period of time. Pretty simple.
Difference is this aftermarket product is it is not just a dedicated stand alone product. It contains capabilities you would never see unless you need to diagnose a problem, should it ever occur. Some people just take it in to get fixed, as they have the money to do so, others do it themselves to save money, thus we provide "hidden screens" for those individuals. We are trying to reduce "cost of ownership" for those whom prefer to spend their money elsewhere.
Someone in this thread (TBRich) watches their tank level during a flush, adds water to black water tank, then "sprints" to turn off the water when high level so it does not overflow. Just thought I would make it so they don't have to sprint to turn off water before it overflows into their trailer or comes out the overflow. In effect, push a button and avoid the run. I figure camping, and camping clean up, should be as pleasant as possible thus the questions about adding this feature to our soon to be released product.
This system is "competitive" and since it is not "just a tank gauge", which the existing market is familiar with, we are always looking to add "pleasant features" that might sway the buy decision for those buing a unit. We obvioulsy would also like to reduce warranty costs of companies like Airstream by switching to our system. In effect, a better mousetrap.
Rather than putting a flow meter (paddle) in line with water our system uses a flow meter to "calibrate" each tank where we effectively build a "lookup table" of tank volume versus pressure. This would be done by us, or trailer manufacturer once, for each tank shape for their trailer models and would be contained within the unit. Then when we measure the level rising, we use this "lookup table" and display the "volume". In effect we eliminate the need for an "expensive flow meter" by using the capabilities of the tank gauge. So I think that would meet your "cheap" criteria.
Our system, unlike those on the market today, has "level alarms". Rather than just telling you level, the system can be optionally configured to "change the tank volume for each tank to red, yellow, green and so on" and can "beep" if configured to do so, indicating exceeding or dropping below a preset level. That funcitonality exists today in our unit.
We also have an existing output, which is currently used to turn on a water valve, and turn off a water value, during manufacturer or do it yourselfer calibration. Once calibrated, that output is available for "other stuff". Since the water value we use to turn water on and off during tank calibration is one used for water sprinker systems, it cost about $15 at your local building center. Thus, for customers willing to run a wire from "our tank gauge output" to the tank flush location, they could buy a water valve at their local building center and automate their flush process, without buying a flow meter and such. For your info, the cheapest flow meter (outputs a pulse and needs electronics like ours to monitor it) cost just over $100. Then you need to add a monitor/counter for a minimum of about another $100, and then you still have to pull some wires to get power there. So if someone is willing to pull the wires, if I add this option it would save you $200. All I have to do is "label an existing spare button" on my product, add the control firmware for the respective screen, and the addtional product feature exists.
By the way, we can do this because our tank monitor has a color graphic screen, like a lower end cell phone, thus we can add functionality via firmware changes and not add hardware, and manufactured cost. The system has an integrated CAN network, and thus can "talk to other products" where this display device can be used to control and monitor "other stuff" in the trailer, thus saving more money. For those whom can afford it, they could even place another display unit at the service location and "avoid the walk" inside the trailer, a benefit of networking.
I hope this clarifies my questons. If not I would be more than happy to answer any ohter questions. If there is "other stuff" you want us to monitor, please let me know. By the way, we will be offering a fimrware update service, at a VERY reasonable cost, to update your unit to add "future features" so you don't have to "buy a new one" as we add features, like the one being described here, thus saving you more money and not obsoleting your product purchases.
As the factory service team stated at last years Alumapaluzza - use it or lose it. I let my tank fill up because you want a substantial amount of water to flush out the contents.
Just out of curiosity what do you lose?
In 28 years of using a black water tank I have never used any form of chemical or flushing device. When it comes time to dump I drain the black water tank, which has been closed off during the stay, I drain it and then while holding the drain hose, at the connect, up just above the tank level I open the gray water tank valve and count to 10. Drop the hose and close the gray water valve. This charge of water back flushes the tank far more than any city water hose system could. Let it drain and close the black water valve.
Periodically I will travel with a full tank and drain at the house or the next campgroung. The travel time really emulsifies everything.
Call me cheap, not green or just out of sync but having started in a plumbing shop and worked all my life in building maintenance I learned early on that "S++t flows down hill" and that is all there is to it. Additives and or perfuming it has no effect on anything. That plastic tank will be there and work just fine long after we are all gone.
__________________ WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6 2004 Excursion 4x4 1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles
I tried my black tank flush for the first time on my 2008 Classic 25fb and it flooded the hallway between the shower and bathroom. The area forward of the water pump underneath the shower is wet. What went wrong. I'm taking wads of paper towels and a light to see what happened. Did leaving the dump handle closed while filling the tank do this?
Yes, leaving the dump handle closed can cause this.
How long did the water run into the tank? It will take several minutes to fill it, depending on water pressure and how full it was, and then might blow a seal. Did you get dirty brown water? If the pipe from the exterior was disconnected from the tank or separated near the filler, you'd only get clear water and right away. If you blew a seal after filling the tank, it would first have to fill the tank and you might get dirty water.
Some people never use the sewer flusher and wouldn't know if the pipe from the exterior was separated, never connected, a seal dried out or failed from too much pressure.
I think a backflush system like the Flush King does a better job of cleaning the tank, but if you let it go too long, water will rise up the vent pipe and come down the side of the trailer—don't ask how I know. It could test the toilet seals (ours were fine).
If you never use the sewer flusher again, seems like you'd still have to find out what is wrong. If the seal at the top of the tank has failed, dirty water and odors can escape into the belly pan. If the pipe has failed elsewhere, you may not get water from the tank, but you may get odors. It is more likely the problem is well above the tank, or you would have never seen any water until it leaked out of the belly pan.
I hope you find the filler pipe—I suspect it might be behind the shower and very hard to fix. You can open the black tank valve and run water into the flusher again while watching inside to see where the water is coming from and determine if it should be fixed. It might not be worth the trouble. Good luck.
Gene
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Gene
The Airstream is sold; a 2016 Nash 24M replaced it.
I found the issue. The siphon valve broke at the output connection. I disconnected the black water flush valve and from the wardrobe access door I was able to find the hose. I have a small compartment behind a curved door on my Classic. The hose runs along the floor then makes a 90 deg turn upwards. The siphon valve is screw on that. Another hard hose from the black tank has a 90deg fitting that screws on the other side of the siphon valve. The tow hoses with the siphon valve stand upright between the AS wall and the shower wall. Im not sure if it was my actions that broke it or just the constant banging around of the valve behind the shower. Looks like an easy fix. When I had the water running I could hear it filling the tank, so it didn't break right away. I'll try to find it online, Lakeview RV Supply model 1000, 125psi, 118F 1/2"
I think I'll do that. I guess just any 1/2" elbow from Home Depot/Lowes plumbing will do. I just want to avoid another flooding. I've removed the soaked insulation and will replace it with new insulation. I've mopped up as much of the water in under the wardrobe access and left the door open to allow air to circulate in the compartment. I might as well take my shop vac and use it to clean up all the construction debris also.
Next task is to try to check the water pump filter and clean it if necessary. I removed the access panel under the fridge to check for any flooding and found the filter buried under venting, wires, water pipes. Why do they have to put it way back in there?
They've been installing the pump that way for decades and no amount of complaints to Airstream seem to make any difference to them.
Glad to see you found the culprit. That looks like vinyl tubing. It can be hard to split thicker vinyl, but that looks pretty thin. It may have been weakened when it was pushed onto the elbow and as time went on, the break just got bigger. But, is that a compression fitting off to the left?—the wrong sized tubing, or wrong tubing, can be cut by a compression fitting too. If you can find an elbow with a barbed male fitting, they are really good at preventing leaks and should not damage the tubing (if everything is the right size).
I think you have a couple of options besides replacing the elbow—plug the elbow and don't use the sewer washer again or replace the vinyl tubing with something more durable.
I've never tried to remove the interior of the wardrobe and I'm glad to hear it must have come out pretty easily. Ours has a area toward the back that is built up like a bench for little, very little, people. I guess you can remove that for access.
Gene
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Gene
The Airstream is sold; a 2016 Nash 24M replaced it.
Here is my elbow. It was impossible to find a single piece male 1/2" elbow so the Home Depot gal showed me a PVC elbow with female 1/2" and then took me to the sprinkler section for two male extensions. I used a little plumbers tape and screwed in the male fittings and then installed it on the black flush line. I did'nt have a water hook up so I connected a hose from the exterior hose fitting and ran it into the black flush fitting, turned on the water pump and verified no leaks. Then I pushed the hoses under the wardrobe frame and the elbow is now behind the shower.
I bought a 2 1/2 gal shop vac for the Airstream and vacuumed out all the debris. Everything felt dry. I also purchased a small bag of 2" pink insulation and stuffed it along the aluminum wall inside. Hopefully this will be the end of this.
Good to hear, Kelvin. Because there may be a path of odors out this connection, use a screw-in plug for it, not the push-in plug furnished with my Flying Cloud. And of course never hook this up to a campground water spigot without a a back-flow preventer on it, and carry one with you just in case.
Do not use a hose you use for potable water with it, but that's the same as before putting in the elbow. And after using this NoFuss Flush system, immediately disconnect the hose.
A back flow is possible when the dump valve is closed, and say, the toilet valve stuck open or a bathroom faucet (this drains into the black tank in most newer trailers) was left open during the night. In that case it would probably overflow the bath sink and . . . yuk, before attempting to come out the exterior flush connector.
Good to hear, Kelvin. Because there may be a path of odors out this connection, use a screw-in plug for it, not the push-in plug furnished with my Flying Cloud. And of course never hook this up to a campground water spigot without a a back-flow preventer on it, and carry one with you just in case.
doug k
Lots to consider for this simple system. I had to look those up but found an examples on line. The first photo of the Camco there is no way to hook it up to the black tank flush connector on the AS. The third one won't work either. What I need is Female on one side and male on the other with that being the direction of flow. The hose end is male at the trailer and female at the city water faucet. I checked the some other RV forums and found this suggestion you can buy a Lowes, see the 2nd photo. They also suggest using a water cutoff valve also so you can turn the water off at the trailer. The black fitting is found in the irrigation section.
I'll have to try to find a screw in plug. I have the same type you do that is pressure fit.
Does the bathroom sink really flow into the black tank? The grey is so close why would they do that?
I'm pretty sure that the only discharge into the black tank is the throne. All others are directed to the grey. At least that's what I've been led to believe. Unless the plumbing system is modified. Then, of course, anything goes.
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Roger in NJ
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