International Front Separation 2019 27 foot FB

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by InvertdEagle

I'm guessing that you're after some of these sorts of drawings/data? Shows the shell frame structure (and the "fix" for end separation). If so, I got them from the Airstream website - 2022 Classic Parts book. Find the model year trailer...download the parts manual...and you should find what you're after.

Thanks; is that the front or rear view? I would think the front view with frame attachment to A frame would be great, if you have that? Without the compartment up front and with?

[GOUSC]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Thanks; is that the front or rear view? I would think the front view with frame attachment to A frame would be great, if you have that? Without the compartment up front and with?

I can't help with the construction of the front area in the rear bedroom models, maybe Hermes has pictures of his repair. However, I've attached a picture of what mine looked like before the repair. I did not include this picture in my post #145.

The only difference I noted in the classic parts diagram was the small curved piece they added to the bottom of each side. I'm assuming they must have bolted this to the vertical bracket and thru the C-channel (have no idea if that would have been screwed in or thru bolted beyond the C-Channel).

In my attachment and the Classic parts list, I see a horizontal piece going across the top of the front storage compartment. The Classic parts list looks like the vertical ribs extending down to the open space of the front compartment are attached to this horizontal rib. I can't tell in my picture if they are attached or not as originally constructed. I would think they would be but can't tell due to the angle of the picture.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by GOUSC

I can't help with the construction of the front area in the rear bedroom models, maybe Hermes has pictures of his repair. However, I've attached a picture of what mine looked like before the repair. I did not include this picture in my post #145.

The only difference I noted in the classic parts diagram was the small curved piece they added to the bottom of each side. I'm assuming they must have bolted this to the vertical bracket and thru the C-channel (have no idea if that would have been screwed in or thru bolted beyond the C-Channel).

In my attachment and the Classic parts list, I see a horizontal piece going across the top of the front storage compartment. The Classic parts list looks like the vertical ribs extending down to the open space of the front compartment are attached to this horizontal rib. I can't tell in my picture if they are attached or not as originally constructed. I would think they would be but can't tell due to the angle of the picture.

Hmmmm; not sure what to make of the picture; is that upside down, or am I just looking at it wrong?

[fran&frank]

GOUSC your picture appears to be from the inside looking toward the front compartment door and is upside down, correct? Seeing a picture of this is really helpful but I'm confused now. I thought one of the problems that had to be fixed was the vertical rib on either side of the compartment door did not extend to the floor, yet your picture seems to show them going to the floor?--Frank

[Ray Eklund]

Click on the photograph and Drag it off onto your computer desktop.

Once on your computer, click on the photo. You may be able to enlarge the photo as well. Trust me... if I can do it... you can.

I still cannot figure out how to take Macro photos using a Canon sophisticated camera... way too complicated for a Neanderthal. Still new in the original carton and I watch those explaining how to do it on websites. They explain it as if I already know how to do it.

I take my photos with a digital Nikon that has to be more than 10 years old. Maybe older. Easy to use. Anything else... way too many options.

Click on any photograph. It will then, if your computer cooperates... appear on your computer. Then you can ROTATE the photo. Maybe enlarge the photo, as well

You can probably drag any of mine off and enlarge them, as well. Let's see how this worked....

[GOUSC]

Originally Posted by fran&frank

GOUSC your picture appears to be from the inside looking toward the front compartment door and is upside down, correct? Seeing a picture of this is really helpful but I'm confused now. I thought one of the problems that had to be fixed was the vertical rib on either side of the compartment door did not extend to the floor, yet your picture seems to show them going to the floor?--Frank

That is correct. Pic taken from the inside and is upside down, (was not upside down originally when I attached it). To eliminate your confusion. My Globetrotter originally had the fix by JC to extend the vertical ribs you mentioned. However; my outer shell began to tear like the OP’s did so I took it to a 3rd party repair shop to shore up the front end as the JC fix did not hold in my situation. See post #145.

I’m guessing my picture doesn’t address Gypsydad’s question as this is a picture after the JC fix, not as originally constructed in 2018. However, it does show at least one area where the 2022 Classic is different than my fix in 2019. IMO, the problem with the 2022 Classic diagram is that it does not show how, or where, the shell is attached to the frame so it really doesn’t give the entire picture.

[Ray Eklund]

Nobody noticed or commented on the Factory Install Wood to reinforce my front storage compartment. This was on the "Interior Skin".

Has anyone else found WOOD attached in this area? Obviously cheaper than an aluminum strip using those dimensions. This is where the Queen Sized Mattress is supported.

Maybe this could be improved, as well?

I added strength to the lower inside to secure the front. We will test that in 2022.

[PB_NB]

I have a piece of wood there are well. I have gone around and beefed up the bed framing as it was pretty soft. Not too sure that the choice of wood over aluminum matters in the case of supporting the plywood for the bed. It does provide a simple means of fastening the screws that hold the plywood in position.

[pjshier]

Twins are the same on the outside walls. I haven't dug into the night stand to see if the front wall has a similar stick of wood attached to the interior skin to support the rear of the night stand.

[cg270et]

Would the use of an Airsafe hitch reduce the stress on the frame and prevent the separation issues? We are scheduled to pick up our 2022 Flying Cloud 27 FBT and reading through all the great information on the forums I have some reservations about taking delivery.

[SSquared]

Originally Posted by cg270et

Would the use of an Airsafe hitch reduce the stress on the frame and prevent the separation issues? We are scheduled to pick up our 2022 Flying Cloud 27 FBT and reading through all the great information on the forums I have some reservations about taking delivery.

I think an Airsafe or similar would help. My trailer had the dimples show up at the corners of the front compartment, after a day of especially bad highways. (this was when the trailer was eight years old with 45000 miles on it).

My concern with Airsafe is the weight of the thing. Their "Class 5" model, which would suffice for some larger Airstreams, weighs 55 pounds. Next size up weighs 69 pounds. Then you bolt a WD bracket and your WD hitch head to it.

[Ray Eklund]

Originally Posted by SSquared

I think an Airsafe or similar would help. My trailer had the dimples show up at the corners of the front compartment, after a day of especially bad highways. (this was when the trailer was eight years old with 45000 miles on it).

*******
Chances are you would have suffered the 'dimples' no matter. This is due to Airstream, they were fully aware of the problem... and with the 'new reinforced FB front ends' this indicates Airstream knew.

Those who use their FB model less frequently may not have the dimples. They are relieved it has not been them... but further use may produce the same results in the future.

If Airstream believed it was:

- Too heavy a Tow Vehicle, they would have advised to avoid those to owners.
- Tires are overinflated... they would have advised to avoid psi over X.
- The Hitch is too aggressive for Weight Distribution and listed which to avoid.
- Too much weight under the Bed and End Tables... and give a weight max.
- Avoiding Service Stations with water routing causing Dips with WD.
- Do not depend on Sway Control Hitches with Weight Distribution warnings.
- Rear loading of FB models causes too much Dexter Torsion stress to frame.
- Towing during temperatures below 25 degrees F.
- Hot days created excess aluminum skin expansion, causing stress to FB.
- Don't travel with a full fresh water tank.
- Put Propane Tanks into the Tow Vehicle.
- Convert to lighter Lithium Batteries.
- Do not have one or two Air Conditioning Units stressing frame.
- Avoid roads that are not level, flat or go uphill or downhill.
- Do not overload the Dometic Refer or Pantry with food or can goods.
- The mattress is too heavy with two people using it at the same time.

This is a example how to shift blame to the owner. Not the design or lack of reinforcement to the front frame or aluminum shell. You should not use your trailer improperly. Too much use will cause damage to your trailer. Too little use is just as damaging. On and on and on.... anything I miss?

(My Equalizer Hitch has NO Weight Distribution needed. They swing out freely.)
(My F350 did no damage to the front end of my 2016 25 foot Safari Rear Bed.)
(I use the same roads and travel and load where spaces were made to store items.)

... And it is MY Fault? Yep...

After 14 years of Airstream ownership... this was the first time it was my POOR Judgement in towing, hitch, tires, road choices... on an on.

Airstream JC should notify and ask each and every Original Owner of a FB model with these indents and FIX IT, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY and MAKE RESTITUTION to those who will live with the indents.

Mine is under warranty until August 2022. I should not have to BEG Airstream to do what is right. My dealer said my claim was denied. Why? Give me the list of what I did with this model, that I did not do any different with the previous two.

Some owners had the repair at JC... and now have indents again...? Really. What has your experience been if this is true?

[GettinAway]

I feel your frustration. I really wish AS would step up and do the right thing. I personally discount a lot of the current quality threads, but not this one. It’s clear to me that AS knows, and has known about this issue for a long time, but is just sticking their head in the sand.

[djbar]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

*******
... Some owners had the repair at JC... and now have indents again...? Really. What has your experience been if this is true?

Ray - My experience: Our 2019 FC25fbt developed dimples at lower corners of hatch opening but nothing else after about 7000mi. Had the reinforcement repair done on our at JC last summer; fully covered by warranty without a question. Since then, have put only another 1700mi on her but no evidence of recurrence yet. Fingers crossed; using little to no WD (F250 w/ PPP).

[Ray Eklund]

Originally Posted by djbar

Ray - My experience: Our 2019 FC25fbt developed dimples at lower corners of hatch opening but nothing else after about 7000mi. Had the reinforcement repair done on our at JC last summer; fully covered by warranty without a question. Since then, have put only another 1700mi on her but no evidence of recurrence yet. Fingers crossed; using little to no WD (F250 w/ PPP).

******

I bought the F350 4x4 Diesel new off the lot. Never needed any warranty work. I change the Oil filter, Fuel Filters and Air Filters. With 71,000 miles I like this truck as much as all of our Land Cruisers and Tundras. Surprised with the F350, but feel confident it will run for 125,000 miles and time to check out what is available at that time... maybe 185,000 miles if no options.

The 2019 27 foot Internaitonal is 100% operational. Everything is upgraded hardware. Reinforced walls. Know how to Flush Fresh Water system. We know how to maintain the Black Water Tank and no chemicals needed. I have sealed the fender wells from water and dust intrusion.

The Dometic Refer outside compartment is shiny and looks unused. I have sealed the side with insulation on the exterior walls, and secured the dust incoming within the interior below the Refer. We will see how that works out. I am tired of Sucking Dust... and so is my wife. I think we finally have 90%+ taken care of. We did the same with the 25 footer. We are both handy. She is smart. I have handy hands.

Have never used the two AC units.

Then... I am treating my Airstream like a disposable beer can?

Thor: "Thor is a hammer-wielding god associated with lightning, thunder, storms, sacred groves and trees, strength, the protection of mankind, hallowing, and fertility."

I like the Fertility part.

Thor has become Wuss: "Fail to do or complete something as a result of fear or lack of confidence."

I am not Wussie or a Wuss. I am an Airstream Owner getting the short end of their warranty and not knowing the problems with previous FB models.

My cost to go to Jackson Center is about $2000 out of pocket, round trip and time. My time would be ten days, wear on my F350 and Trailer. If Ford expected me to go to the manufacturer to have an alternator replaced... I would have bought a Tundra with the 5.7L engine and a second one, parked and used for local trips for replacing the first.

I am Old. I have an attitude. I know how to dig 'half a hole and complete a finished hole'. Right now, half a hole and enjoy doing it traveling in our Airstream. I do not drink Jackson Center 'Cool Aide', or need a back massage coupon. Compensate me for the innate failures of the FB Models as well the others. The Serial Numbers are in JC.

I have taken time to do what I could to add support from the interior aluminum shell. My time and expense in the RV Garage. Left my trailer at my Dealer for two days. No help from my Dealer or JC. If what I did works, great.

More than my warranty provided. Zip...

[jeffmc306]

Very well said Ray. A lot of us feel the same way. We bought our 27’ GT with the expectation of a quality product from Airstream. Yes, I anticipated there to be a punch list of minor problems which there were. That did not include what turned out to be a significant design failure that required a trip to JC for repairs.

Now, JC has implemented an “improved” fix in production. If this were an auto manufacturer they would be forced to do a recall for anyone who had the “band-aid” repair done or reimburse those who did it on their own like GOUSC. Heck, Toyota replaced frames on rusty Tacomas. The whole frame!

What will this do to the future resale value of our FB trailers? If it negatively impacts it, there will be a very angry group of AS owners. Not a good look for a premium brand.

I’m old too albeit younger than you I think, and at some point we’ll no longer be able to tow a trailer. When that day comes I hope there’s someone still interested in a FB trailer.

I hope Airstream steps up to the plate and reaches out to us FB owners and makes things right. There, I said it. Now get off my lawn!

[PB_NB]

I think a recall would not happen. This seems to be customer driven. If you have this problem, you start the process and see where it goes. Everyone seems to be on their own to deal with this either through their trusted dealer or directly with Airstream. As Ray has experienced, the issue is still not completely accepted as a defect. Not too sure why when others have appointments to get this fixed, and Airstream has started to modify the FB’s that are coming out of the factory.

It sure does appear that the bottom line is driving this rather than client satisfaction or pride in your products. Certainly doing the right thing is a lost concept in today’s reality. This does appear to be a short term strategy. Maybe our memories will not be good in a few years and we will forget that this actually happened!

[Ray Eklund]

From my spending time looking this over, my conclusion is this may be the worst to expect.

Dimples, creases, flex... whatever this would be called is the FIRST SIGN.

The next part is the Split within the Dimple is the SECOND SIGN.

The Stress is reduced with the split, secure area to prevent water intrusion is the LAST STEP.

If Airstream Dealer's discount the FB models due to the Indents... then we need to be taken care of. JC FIX or JC make restitution of the difference. They knew. We did not... or at least not when purchasing, having options.

I needed to cut out 3/8 of an inch of aluminum on the lower inside area under the bed access area. The aluminum was rippled and riveted... while it was rippled. This did not happen during use. The area was narrower than the aluminum panel, thus the rippling.

The piece I removed, I bent it back a bit once, returned it to flat... and it broke apart. It is very brittle when moving. Too much movement, it splits. That is on my street side dimple. I sealed it with aluminum foil with adhesive from Lowes. Should prevent water from getting in between. If the area is still actively moving... the foil will split. I will be looking at that this coming camping season.

This is not apparent from the exterior skin. But just the lower three inches, and possibly a couple more inches below the silver one inch 'wrap'. Even it shows screws backing out into it on my curb side above the battery box.

I obviously did not do that either... towing. It was factory work and ALL may have this on the inside skin, at the bottom of the storage compartment to the floor and secured to the... floor? Looked real sloppy. There was also a lot of black aluminum dust and shavings in between the inner and outer skins. Just housekeeping materials...

I do not expect any further dimples, but at some time the non split side may in the future.

For me, the cost to go to JC and Back, out of pocket I figure $2,000 and time and wear and tear. A guy who tows trailers to Dealers probably gets $1 to $2 a mile for up to 25 foot. Getting into 27 to 33 footers... more.

There are members who are reading these Threads but avoid any comments. They make thousands of posts... but stay away from making statements that may be taken as negative. But sure can put SUGAR on everything else.

Without extended the partial frame members running up and down... we will see. I also fault the single rivet on the upper end of each split. Somehow THIS COULD BE A PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Enough said. I just do not want some to believe this is the beginning of something worse... it may not be. But, Jackson Center says NOTHING. To do so would admit Guilt. Obviously they have attorney's looking into this and given advice to... say nothing. Make no comments. Do nothing if possible... but already too late. We know.

[GOUSC]

Quote:"Enough said. I just do not want some to believe this is the beginning of something worse... it may not be. But, Jackson Center says NOTHING. To do so would admit Guilt. Obviously they have attorney's looking into this and given advice to... say nothing. Make no comments. Do nothing if possible... but already too late. We know."

FYI Ray - just wanted to let you know I didn't hear anything back from my letter sent 12/13/21 at Post #205. When I contacted Mr. McNeely a couple of years ago I heard back by phone within 2-3 days. It appears you are correct in that they don't plan on commenting about this particular issue in the near future.

Happy New Year to you and I hope you have many great adventures in 2022.

[Ray Eklund]

We have going through Arizona and have Service Stations we frequent. They are regular stops as the distances from A to B to C work out.

Williams, Arizona is one example. The Service Station is to the North of I-40 and you exit to the North. Truckers go straight ahead. It must be a Maverick Station as they have the best price for fuel, clean restrooms, often fresh water access outside, dog park... etc. I did not go through my Fueling Log to get the station brand name... but Maverick is most likely.

The road goes up hill at a 30 degree angle or so. Truckers go straight to a different area which would take them to a flatter turn to the Diesel Pumps.

Vehicles and those towing trailers make the Left Turn to the South into the pump area. It is maybe a 40 degree angle from the main road, onto the wide area to get to the pumps. (It may be less if I checked it, but there is a grade to turn onto.)

IT IS THE ROCKING TO THE LEFT AND RIGHT AS YOU GO UP INTO THE STATION PUMP AREA from the main road the 18 wheelers are also using and keep going. They would find it impossible to access the pumps to the left...

ONCE THERE, THE SLOPE IS JUST ENOUGH TO DRAIN WATER FROM A RAIN. Not an issue.

I suspect the Rocking Left to Right at an angle puts pressure onto the Equalizer Bars on the L Bracket attached to the Frame. A twisting action. My bars may be easy to swing in and out... but you get the / 's this could be a common source or torque.

Not the up and down... but side to side. Any comments? There are lots of these kinds of entries out west due to lack of flat areas. That is taken up by homes and town. What is left is on the edges of town, which may be hills or on the side of a steeper grade.

Left to Right Torque. Equalizer would definitely have that. Just imagine it. I did this morning getting up to walk the Heelers around the back yard. Even YOUR Driveway could do this.

Now I will shut up, move on and have next year to actually check this idea out. I will make sure now that I cut the angle coming in straighter so both axles go up about the same time. No more left to right rocking... If anyone else can visualize this... I am going to be more strategic on my entires to those large stations with a steeper angles of entry.

The End?