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Old 12-05-2011, 09:57 PM   #1
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Insulation idea

While sitting in the bathtub pondering the pending shell-off restoration on our baby, I was thinking about all the threads on insulation, what to use, hmmmm. Reflexix (sp?) is not so available up in the frozen north across the St.Lawrence River, also pricey. I am not very keen on fiberglass-while cheaper-it does not deal with water (leaks) so well and neither does Roxul, it tends to matt up into a mushy slimy mess. Spray-on polyurethane is not a smart option to me. OK, here is my idea, why not use polyester batting? I mean the heavier gauge type used in the seat pads of outdoor furniture (not the foam and not the squishy quilt batting), it is quite robust, if my seat pads are any indication. It is also; impervious to water, doesn't hold water, extremely light, doesn't mold or mildew, and doesn't off-gas VOC's. It also would not anneal itself to your skins or compress into a mass at the bottom as fiberglass does. You would still have to provide air channels at the outer skin, but you could use neoprene gasket for that, easy!
Any comments, thoughts, or ideas? Experts, please weigh in. Has anyone tried this, or will I be charting a new course in a galaxy far, far away?
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:21 PM   #2
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check out the thread about making a tall trailer(I think "shell off transformation").
They mention something like HFC 1500 It is a ceramic type paint that is about R-19 for a layer about 10mils thick.
Amazing.
If you have the inner skin off I would certainly give that serious consideration.
Al
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:31 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
check out the thread about making a tall trailer(I think "shell off transformation").
They mention something like HFC 1500 It is a ceramic type paint that is about R-19 for a layer about 10mils thick.
Amazing.
If you have the inner skin off I would certainly give that serious consideration.
Al
I think this is the thread you're talking about:

Shell off headroom epiphany
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:28 AM   #4
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I don't think polyester batting would have any real R value. So although it might be light weight and very easy to put in place I do not think it would work for your insulation needs. also if you have ever left outside cushions in the rain you would realize that the filling in these cushions do get very wet and hold the moisture until it drains away and then it still requires time to dry thoroughly. The paint on ceramic with a R-19 rating would be a real bonus weight wize and maybe would eliminate a need for other forms of in wall insulation. Well worth checking out the cost to paint the inner sides of the exterior skins and eliminating the need for fiberglass in between the inner and outer skins. Ed
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Old 12-06-2011, 06:56 AM   #5
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you would have all the issues as you would with fiberglass. I think it would hold water even worse due to it's density. Reflectix, Podex, Rollflex, any of those are the way to go. You can always get on one of those shopping busses and take a trip over to the States to stock up.
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Old 12-06-2011, 08:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
They mention something like HFC 1500 It is a ceramic type paint that is about R-19 for a layer about 10mils thick.
Amazing.
Can you supply a link to this type of covering. My search found nothing.

When it comes to insulation a coating would be the way to go as it offers COMPLETE coverage. The problem with most insulation are the voids, gaps, and seams. Any of these will almost completely eliminate the value of the material in that area.

One of the biggest faults with the construction of an Airstream is the fact that the inner and outer skins are connected with aluminum, a great thermal conduit. If when reinstalling the inner skin you could install a thermal brake on the face of the frames you would gain a lot. If yo question this just look at how the snow melts off the trailer while the heater is on inside.
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Old 12-07-2011, 05:30 PM   #7
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Thanks, guys

Firstly, HowieE looooove the mailbox, BigEd, is that quote from the Tom Waits song "Burma Shave"? Thought I would ask first before digging out the album and checking the lyrics. I am a Tom Waits addict as well as an Aluminati.
Now back to topic...
I had already studiously read through the threads suggested (yes, I was previously one of the 'lurkers') and they are great ideas, much info to consider. Perhaps using neoprene strips as a thermal break at the ribs would be a good idea, sill gasket would work as long as you really socked the rivets down well for that great 'monocoque' feel. Although I would be concerned about anything that could wear out if the rivets loosened, hmmm. As far as insulation goes, the type of polyester batting I have in my cushions does not hold water at all, it drains right out and you can feel it heating up the tushie when you sit on it in the winter. It is about an inch and a half thick and a lot more robust than regular batting, doesn't compress much but is still nice to sit on. I would think it has quite good R value because it is similar in density to Roxul, stiff yet full of spaces, but bounces back when you get up. Of course all this is just conjecture at this point since I can't start work on my baby yet but I like to keep a mental shopping list and am frequently in fabric stores that also cater to commercial clients so they have more options and unusual items.
Thanks again,
Leonie
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Old 12-07-2011, 05:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
Can you supply a link to this type of covering. My search found nothing.

When it comes to insulation a coating would be the way to go as it offers COMPLETE coverage. The problem with most insulation are the voids, gaps, and seams. Any of these will almost completely eliminate the value of the material in that area.

One of the biggest faults with the construction of an Airstream is the fact that the inner and outer skins are connected with aluminum, a great thermal conduit. If when reinstalling the inner skin you could install a thermal brake on the face of the frames you would gain a lot. If yo question this just look at how the snow melts off the trailer while the heater is on inside.

It is what I used - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...4UlGi_eIwplzAQ
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:17 PM   #9
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As for your comment on prices, I looked heavily into that during my renovation because I was not so concerned with achieving a whole lot of effective R-value. I live in Southern California, the trailer is not going more than 500 miles on trips for the next few years, and our winter camping is to deserts with 30 to 50 degree ranges that we are used to doing in tents---so anything is an upgrade.

The cost of Reflectix purchased in 2'x50' rolls at Lowe's or online and 1/2" to 3/4" foam board for spacers was the cheapest per sq. ft. unless you use the absolute minimum R-value insulation (like R-8 or R-11) which is 3" battens and you have to tear in half anyway, reducing the R value to <5. This is even including the many rolls of foil tape and adhesive used for the install

If you want effective in a cold region, I would really consider Dark's magic ceramic.
If you want cheap, I would go Reflectix.
If you want fast install, I would go fiberglass.

However, everyone always seems to think that fiberglass is cheaper, so they are either tearing it into really small pieces or maybe prices are highly regionally-biased.
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:28 PM   #10
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The ceramic stuff is magic... Mmmm warm..
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
Can you supply a link to this type of covering. My search found nothing.

When it comes to insulation a coating would be the way to go as it offers COMPLETE coverage. The problem with most insulation are the voids, gaps, and seams. Any of these will almost completely eliminate the value of the material in that area.

One of the biggest faults with the construction of an Airstream is the fact that the inner and outer skins are connected with aluminum, a great thermal conduit. If when reinstalling the inner skin you could install a thermal brake on the face of the frames you would gain a lot. If yo question this just look at how the snow melts off the trailer while the heater is on inside.
Painting a thick layer on the face of the ribs did create quite the thermal break.
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Old 12-07-2011, 09:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flygrrl View Post
Firstly, HowieE looooove the mailbox, BigEd, is that quote from the Tom Waits song "Burma Shave"? Thought I would ask first before digging out the album and checking the lyrics. I am a Tom Waits addict as well as an Aluminati.
Now back to topic...
I had already studiously read through the threads suggested (yes, I was previously one of the 'lurkers') and they are great ideas, much info to consider. Perhaps using neoprene strips as a thermal break at the ribs would be a good idea, sill gasket would work as long as you really socked the rivets down well for that great 'monocoque' feel. Although I would be concerned about anything that could wear out if the rivets loosened, hmmm. As far as insulation goes, the type of polyester batting I have in my cushions does not hold water at all, it drains right out and you can feel it heating up the tushie when you sit on it in the winter. It is about an inch and a half thick and a lot more robust than regular batting, doesn't compress much but is still nice to sit on. I would think it has quite good R value because it is similar in density to Roxul, stiff yet full of spaces, but bounces back when you get up. Of course all this is just conjecture at this point since I can't start work on my baby yet but I like to keep a mental shopping list and am frequently in fabric stores that also cater to commercial clients so they have more options and unusual items.
Thanks again,
Leonie
Leonie, I never read or heard that before.... I just tried different verses & words until I had something that sounded like it could have been a Burma Shave sign rhyme/ad. Ed
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Old 12-12-2011, 01:15 PM   #13
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I might have missed it in this thread or Darkspeed's, but what is the cost of the ceramic paint? As how much for my 23' Flying Cloud. Thanks
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Old 12-12-2011, 02:41 PM   #14
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Darkspeed,
Did you use any other type of insulation with this application?
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danimal327
Darkspeed,
Did you use any other type of insulation with this application?
I used 10gallons @45$ per gallon on a 31' with a little left over.

I sprayed 1.75" of spray foam on top of the ceramic for added insulation.
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:20 PM   #16
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Who did you buy the ceramic insulation from? I tried getting in touch with the company that makes it but they never answered. Did you order it online? Thanks!
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:27 PM   #17
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Hsc 1500

Quote:
Originally Posted by aluminitus View Post
Who did you buy the ceramic insulation from? I tried getting in touch with the company that makes it but they never answered. Did you order it online? Thanks!
From a PM from Dark

paste starts here

This is the contact info of where I buy from

-----------------------------------
The spread rate for Super Therm is 90sq/ft/ga
The spread rate for HSC1000 is 60 sq/ft/ga

Price Super Therm $75.00/ga., HSC1000 $42.00/ga

Thanks
Dennis Watters
Superior Coatings International
805-200-8814
-----------------------------

Ask Veggibullet I showed him the coated 200w bulb last night. I don't have any left to do you a sample.


End paste

Also

Hello,

I am the Distributor for HSC-1500ģ in your area. Please provide project information, and amount required.

My contact information is set forth below. Please feel free to contact me.



Hal McElroy
National Distributor & Authorized Representative
10 Kensington Ct.
Conroe, Texas 77304
Mobile: 832.683.1123
Fax: 832.415.9448
E-mail: hmcelroy@superiorcoatingsusa.com
www.spicoatings.com
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:34 PM   #18
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I got a sample of HSC and plan to do some tests. I am skeptica,l but after last summer I am prepared to remove my interior and apply the HSC if it works.
My current insulation is the bubble foil and hard foam (not sure the brands).
I do know that if I can at least get a thermal break on the ribs, that would provide a great improvements.
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC7039 View Post
I got a sample of HSC and plan to do some tests. I am skeptica,l but after last summer I am prepared to remove my interior and apply the HSC if it works.
My current insulation is the bubble foil and hard foam (not sure the brands).
I do know that if I can at least get a thermal break on the ribs, that would provide a great improvements.
Did you put the bubble and foam in? Is it really worth the effort to remove the inside skin twice???
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC7039 View Post
I got a sample of HSC and plan to do some tests. I am skeptica,l but after last summer I am prepared to remove my interior and apply the HSC if it works.
My current insulation is the bubble foil and hard foam (not sure the brands).
I do know that if I can at least get a thermal break on the ribs, that would provide a great improvements.
Hi guys
I will like to stand for the job that DarkSpeed has done.
that ceramic insulation is crazy good! I had been in the inside of that trailer at noon with Florida full sun and is awesome.
I also placed my hand on that 200W light bulb where it has a little dot of that ceramic and you can't feel anything.
All we can say is that you can afford it you won't regret!
Regards
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