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05-10-2015, 02:16 PM
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#41
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4 Rivet Member
2015 25' Flying Cloud
GILBERT
, Arizona
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 377
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AS should move or add another fire extinguisher in the back and if you are on the road for a long time put one in your car, if there is a fire while driving you will not be able to get the one out of the trailer, and most important make sure all people know how to use it and are not afraid to do it.
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05-10-2015, 03:43 PM
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#42
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Sioux Falls
, South Dakota
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dames7
AS should move or add another fire extinguisher in the back and if you are on the road for a long time put one in your car, if there is a fire while driving you will not be able to get the one out of the trailer, and most important make sure all people know how to use it and are not afraid to do it.
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I'd suggest that each OWNER add fire extinguishers as needed. We have one fire extinguisher directly behind the driver's seat and one at the door of our motor home. We don't have one in the bedroom or in the Jeep. I've thought about one in the bedroom, but at this point we're thinking that just getting out will use all the time we have. I may put one in the Jeep so that if we have to bail out of the bedroom there will be one available away from the fire. Have to think about that one.
__________________
David Lininger, kb0zke
AIR 54240
Heartland mpg 181 (sold)
1993 Foretravel U300 (sold)
2022 Grand Design Reflection 315RLTS
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05-11-2015, 11:07 AM
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#43
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3 Rivet Member
2003 30' Classic
Centerville
, Ohio
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 133
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Seem to be a lot of pro-opinions on hacking your way out. That is, frankly totally impractical. If you have to hack your way out, you will be found deceased, trying to hack your way out. Fire grows much to rapidly (assuming there is enough fire for you to need to hack away). You need early detection (smoke detector) and quick exit.
Also, fire extinguishers have very limited application. The reason there is an extinguisher in your trailer is so you can extinguish a small kitchen stove top fire. That is about the only reason. Maybe a small electrical fire that you witnessed. But the majority of fires beyond that are going to be unwitnessed. At that point exit is the only safe option. And the idea that with extra extinguishers you will fight your way out, is also not very realistic at all.
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05-11-2015, 12:38 PM
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#44
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Figment of My Imagination
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over
, More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dames7
AS should move or add another fire extinguisher in the back and if you are on the road for a long time put one in your car, if there is a fire while driving you will not be able to get the one out of the trailer.
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When I was still working for a living, every Government vehicle was required to have a fire extinguisher on-board. Problem is, said extinguisher could be anywhere in the vehicle. Which is why we had a Government-owned SUV go up in flames a few years ago. The occupants were performing a levee inspection shortly after the grass on the levee was mowed. The cut grass accumulated on the vehicle's catalytic converter and caught fire. Everyone got out of the vehicle safely, but the fire extinguisher in back was inaccessible because the fire spread so quickly. The only extinguisher available was one from another vehicle, and by the time that one was brought to bear, it wasn't enough to put out the fire.
In a tow vehicle, any extinguisher should be within easy reach of the driver, because the driver may be the only person in the vehicle and the idea is to grab the extinguisher on the way out the door. Having to open another door to grab the extinguisher, or worse, reach into a fire to do grab the extinguisher, is not the best idea in the world.
The stock location for an extinguisher in an Airstream is right beside the main exit, which is exactly where it should be. Again, the idea is to grab the extinguisher on the way out. Always plan on fighting a fire from the outside in, never from the inside out.
If you want to add another extinguisher to your Airstream, the same principle applies— mount the second extinguisher where you can grab it on the way out through an emergency exit, or someone reaching in the exit from outside can grab it without having to step inside.
__________________
I thought getting old would take longer!
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05-14-2015, 01:15 PM
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#45
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Rivet Master
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin)
, Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,950
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In all of our client/pax-briefings, the use of the hand-held extinguisher is described as a tool "to clear a pathway for escape".... not as a fire-fighting tool...or "extinguisher". (Mis-named?)
I believe that might be a good description of any "extinguisher" inside the AS or nearby the bed, as it might provide addt'l time for the escape.
When a vehicle of ANY sort is on "Fire"... it is best to remember that ..NOW,... it belongs to the insurance company. Get out...and let them have it.
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05-14-2015, 02:20 PM
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#46
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Figment of My Imagination
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over
, More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite
In all of our client/pax-briefings, the use of the hand-held extinguisher is described as a tool "to clear a pathway for escape".... not as a fire-fighting tool...or "extinguisher". (Mis-named?)
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I beg to differ. My Airstream Interstate has four exits— two front doors, one side door, and the rear doors. If I can't get to ANY of them without using an extinguisher to clear a pathway, that means I'm already toast! Or already toasted— and my life insurance policy will be paying off along with my RV insurance. At least they'll save the cost of a cremation…
Why would anyone try to clear a path with an extinguisher unless they're completely surrounded by fire and have no other way out? That's why Airstreams— and homes and offices— have emergency exits, so if one exit is blocked hopefully another isn't. And why they have smoke detectors with very loud alarms, so you can wake up and get out before you're completely surrounded by fire.
In my Airstream, the fire extinguisher is for fighting fires small enough to be put out with it, after I have escaped and called 911— assuming I'm in a location that has cell phone coverage. And if the fire is too big to be put out with my extinguisher, at least I've already summoned assistance and used my extinguisher— which I have been trained to use— to slow the spread of the fire as much as I could until help arrives.
If my insurance company WANTS me to let the fire burn and pay off for a total loss, that's up to them; they don't even show up until long after the fire is over anyway. But I personally want to save as much as I can during a fire, as long as I can do so safely.
On Edit— I guess you're referring to aircraft since you said "clients/pax" but to me the same reasoning applies— there are so many emergency exits on a commercial aircraft that if you need an extinguisher to clear a pathway to one, you're completely surrounded by fire and it's already too late.
__________________
I thought getting old would take longer!
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05-14-2015, 02:33 PM
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#47
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Rivet Master
2013 25' Flying Cloud
2008 30' Classic
On The Road To Wherever We End Up
, Traveling the USA
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 552
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Apologies in advance if this has been addressed...is the AS bike rack on the rear a problem for rear hatch evacuation?...especially if bikes are on it?
__________________
Jeanne and John, and always with us...Jake
2008 30' Classic Ltd Rear twin, 2014 Ford Super Duty
WBCCI 3100, unit 12, TAC USA-1, Escapees 129379
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05-15-2015, 07:24 AM
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#48
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Rivet Master
2006 23' Safari SE
Biloxi
, Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 8,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEagle6
Apologies in advance if this has been addressed...is the AS bike rack on the rear a problem for rear hatch evacuation?...especially if bikes are on it?
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See post #26.
__________________
MICHAEL
Do you know what a learning experience is? A learning experience is one of those things that says "You know that thing that you just did? Don't do that."
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05-15-2015, 07:49 AM
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#49
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Rivet Master
2013 25' Flying Cloud
2008 30' Classic
On The Road To Wherever We End Up
, Traveling the USA
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 552
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Thanks, glad it was mentioned earlier...
__________________
Jeanne and John, and always with us...Jake
2008 30' Classic Ltd Rear twin, 2014 Ford Super Duty
WBCCI 3100, unit 12, TAC USA-1, Escapees 129379
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05-15-2015, 09:02 AM
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#50
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Rivet Master
1989 34.5' Airstream 345
Ebro
, Fla Panhandle
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,212
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^^ yes thanks for mentioning the problem of bikes on the rack, this had not occurred to me and is a factor with my Holliwood rack also.
I have climbed in thru a side window to retrieve keys. This would be possible but not easy to get out of.
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05-15-2015, 11:27 AM
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#51
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Rivet Master
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin)
, Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,950
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Protagonist... in my line of work people are more important than things.
And if you want to have a partially burned, smoke/water damaged vehicle,.... then go ahead and concern yourself with what the insurance corporation would prefer you to do. (IF you actually consulted with them, I'd be willing to bet dollars-to-donuts they'd agree with me... Get away from it. Let the professional fire fighters deal with it.)
YMMV..but I hope it's clear I'm talking about a raging structural fire of a vehicle/RV which has fuel and propane tanks etc....not a simple stove-top flareup. If it requires you to EXIT... then stay out of it. (Airstreams are not much different than airplane fuselages, or perhaps that was forgotten.)
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05-15-2015, 04:00 PM
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#52
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Figment of My Imagination
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over
, More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite
YMMV..but I hope it's clear I'm talking about a raging structural fire of a vehicle/RV which has fuel and propane tanks etc....not a simple stove-top flareup.
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I understand. And I don't think we disagree in any particulars except by accident.
The common-sense thing is, as soon as ANY alarm goes off— whether it's the CO detector, the LPG detector, or the smoke detector, GET OUT. Then worry about the fire. That's why I keep saying that the extinguishers belong at the exits, so you can grab one on the way out, and after you're out and you've called 911, decide whether to work your way back in to fight the fire from the outside or wait for the professionals. Anyone who lets himself/herself get trapped by a fire in their Airstream to the point that an extinguisher is required as the only means of getting to an exit ("to clear a pathway for escape" as you said) is ignoring their alarms.
The LPG detector will go off before the concentration of propane in the air reaches the lower explosive limit. The CO detector will go off before the concentration of carbon monoxide gas interferes with your breathing. The smoke detector will go off while the fire is still small enough that flames won't block every possible exit path before you can get out.
__________________
I thought getting old would take longer!
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05-15-2015, 08:32 PM
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#53
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Rivet Master
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin)
, Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,950
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Those cheap, chineese made detectors cannot be counted on to provide sufficient alarm to guarantee an escape path.
No one will "let" themselves be trapped.
The little extinguishers in TT's are too small capacity to fight a serious fire. They should be viewed as a helpful escape tool. IMO.
I think it's easy to imagine heroic salvage of a valuable asset such as a TT, but I don't think anyone can guarantee the scenario you imagine will be the fact. If you can tell me the size and/or circumstances of the fire you will have....then I can predict the outcome of your efforts with those little extinguishers and cheap detectors. If you cannot tell me those things... then I believe it's prudent to consider it an escape-problem-certainty.... and THEN a fire-fighting effort possibility.
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05-15-2015, 08:56 PM
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#54
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Figment of My Imagination
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over
, More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite
Those cheap, chineese made detectors cannot be counted on to provide sufficient alarm to guarantee an escape path.
No one will "let" themselves be trapped.
The little extinguishers in TT's are too small capacity to fight a serious fire. They should be viewed as a helpful escape tool. IMO.
I think it's easy to imagine heroic salvage of a valuable asset such as a TT, but I don't think anyone can guarantee the scenario you imagine will be the fact. If you can tell me the size and/or circumstances of the fire you will have....then I can predict the outcome of your efforts with those little extinguishers and cheap detectors. If you cannot tell me those things... then I believe it's prudent to consider it an escape-problem-certainty.... and THEN a fire-fighting effort possibility.
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I'll never agree with you on this, because I'm not going to count on all of my detectors to fail exactly when I need them most and then count on my extinguisher to save me. But I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I've said all I can say to support my case, and repetition will not help, because I'm also sure you'll never come around to my point of view either.
__________________
I thought getting old would take longer!
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05-15-2015, 09:39 PM
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#55
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Rivet Master
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin)
, Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,950
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I'm sorry you do not wish to consider alternatives. But I respect your choice.
As a professional simulator instructor , Fire-escape/Evacuation is one of the subjects I recurrently train and teach.
Emergency Procedures Simulators - Aircare FACTS® Training - AirCare
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05-15-2015, 10:08 PM
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#56
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Rivet Master
2007 22' International CCD
Corona
, California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,180
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As an individual that has had Navy firefighting training and was involved in a REAL fire in a commercial building, getting people OUT is the first priority.
Then, and only then do you consider trying to fight the fire with the resources and trained folk you may have on hand. We got a small electrical fire out after the building was evacuated only because we had trained responders, all ex-military, a lot of big dry chemical fire extinguishers, and a lot of luck.
The fire department went to the wrong street, and finally arrived as we were starting mop-up.
I can tell you that dry chemical extinguisher powder tastes terrible, and makes you spit up foul-tasting yellow crap for days. But it can put out one hellova fire used correctly!
Without many extinguishers, we would have watched the building burn from outside.
First and foremost, you need to detect fire, evacuate, then fight from outside. If you only have the little AS installed fire extinguisher, it ain't even capable of making a dent in a big fire. A flaming fry pan on the stove, maybe. I can put that out with a lid and speedy response
Bottom line, unless you are trained, very well equipped, and more than a little lucky, get out and let the professionals handle a fire when they get there. It's only stuff, and your life and the lives of others are worth more than stuff. AS or whatever, it's not worth killing someone or getting killed saving stuff...
I have a much bigger extinguisher in my AS, but it's there to grab on the way out, and I will NOT attempt to go back in unless someone alive is still in the trailer in need of rescue. Failing that, if it can't be put out from outside, it's gonna be totaled...but we will still be alive.
Sent from my pocket Internet using Airstream Forums
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
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05-15-2015, 10:14 PM
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#57
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Rivet Master
2007 22' International CCD
Corona
, California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,180
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I also must mention that the Navy does amazing firefighting training including real fires in simulated shipboard structures and teaches you to fight and win over huge oil fires with just water and appropriate techniques. None of which are applicable to putting out a fire inside a small trailer with inadequate equipment.
That said, the guys at firefighting school at Treasure Island have saved my butt multiple times in emergencies by making it possible to think clearly, plan and do firefighting without panicking first. Training like that will save you when it hits the fan...
If you don't have the training, don't get in the fight...
Sent from my pocket Internet using Airstream Forums
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
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05-15-2015, 10:38 PM
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#58
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Figment of My Imagination
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over
, More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,868
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Here's what I said way back in post #6, this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protagonist
The first step is fire prevention. Which comes down to basic housekeeping and common sense since most of the furniture is built in. The main things are to make sure you don't store burnables next to the furnace or stove, and that you keep your paths to the exits clear. And if you smoke, make your trailer a non-smoking trailer and step outside to light up. Residue from smoking accounts for a lot of fires.
The next step is fire detection. LPG detector, smoke detector, carbon monoxide detector. Have them, and make sure they all work.
The third step is fire evacuation. Know where every exit is in your Airstream, and how to get to that exit in the dark, crawling on the floor (just for fun, try crawling from your bed to the nearest exit— and opening it— with your eyes closed. It ain't always easy).
The fourth step is fire fighting. Make sure your fire extinguisher is next to an exit, because you always fight a fire from the outside in, so that the fire can't stop you from getting back out if you can't put it out. If you want to fight a fire, get out first, turn off the propane at the cylinders, and then come back in with an extinguisher. Never have a fire at your back.
Most RVs, Airstreams included, have small extinguishers that are okay for handling burning grease on a stove or other small fires, but aren't big enough to handle any major firefighting. If the fire is too big to be handled by a single extinguisher, let it burn, and evacuate toward the rear of the trailer so you're as far from the propane cylinders as possible. And if you have a chance, get training on how to use an extinguisher. Some fire departments offer such training, and even if they don't offer regular classes, stop by your local firehouse and ask if they'll train you. I doubt they'll refuse. Also, make sure your extinguisher is inspected regularly. Another good reason to stop by the firehouse.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite
I'm sorry you do not wish to consider alternatives. But I respect your choice.
As a professional simulator instructor , Fire-escape/Evacuation is one of the subjects I recurrently train and teach.
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Forget my more recent posts where the issue of "what a fire extinguisher is actually for" got flogged like a dead horse. Getting back to basics, what I said in post #6… Is there ANYTHING in my quoted post that you disagree with? Anything that I've got wrong? If so, then I really do want your professional opinion as to where I'm wrong.
Oh, and for clarity, when I said "evacuate toward the rear of the trailer," I mean AFTER you've gotten out by whichever unobstructed exit is closest, so that you have a whole trailer between you and the propane cylinders.
__________________
I thought getting old would take longer!
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05-16-2015, 06:15 AM
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#59
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Rivet Master
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin)
, Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,950
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I'm only responding again because you've specifically asked if I disagree with your post #6.
Answer: No. No disagreement with #6.
It was your subsequent posts (#41, #52, #54) which prompted any comments from me at all.
Protagonist Quote: "...I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I've said all I can say to support my case, and repetition will not help..."
Protagonist Quote: "Forget my more recent posts... "
They're forgotten already.
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05-18-2015, 07:09 AM
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#60
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Mantua
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,062
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A little off subject. Can I mount my extinguisher horizontally as long as I take it off and shake it once in a while? Jim
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