Airstream factory tour... Impressions...

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by dave10a

Should mention that aircraft use Cherry rivets that cost nearly $1.00 each and are very strong. Airstream uses aluminum or aluminum alloy rivets that are not as strong. Therefore they will pop from routine stress and one should obtain a supply of rivets and tools for routine maintenance.

It depends on whether we are talking of the exterior shell rivets (the "buck rivets") or the interior shell rivets (the "pop rivets").

From Air forums, except for a front end separation situation in a RB model (FB models have other issues with front end separation), there are very few buck rivets that fail (they can be replaced with an Olympic rivet, which can be shaved and polished with a Dremel to look just like the head of a buck rivet).

As for the interior pop rivets, when I was in JC in 2019 they recommended (and sold me) aluminum rivets with a stainless steel mandrel. It's what they are now installing on the production line. With the stainless steel mandrel, there are fewer rivets popping out and having installed a few, you notice that they fasten tighter than the original all aluminum rivets.

Here is their part number: 330155 RIVET-.125" ALUM W/SS MANDREL, and they were 0.17 each at the time.

[John Ware]

Foobar, your post is why I bought my first AS. I looked at SOBs and I figured I wouldn't have much of a trailer left after a trip from the Gulf coast to the west coast and back. When I traded it in for a fancier one, my insurance lady asked me what was so special about an AS and I told her to simply go look at one and compare it to the same size SOB.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by 2013810

I tend to dismiss Airstream's "pride" here as a bit of marketing fluff. Factory automation would absolutely increase production quality and consistency. To your point, there are more than a few places in my new Airstream where it's clear that certain parts were "made to fit" - and it doesn't look great.

This is correct. We have found these places in and on our AS. Have also found places where there wasn’t enough “material” to fit and “unfinished” work as well.

Knew this would likely be the case, not addressed at PDI and had to go back to the dealer for weeks to address these issues. Some are still not fixed and will fix them on my own with ordered parts, etc.

AS has been great on warranty issues, CS calls, etc. However, it is easier, quicker and likely cheaper for parts vs. gas to the dealer and back for the small stuff.

[skyguyscott]

It is a sad reflection on the RV industry in general that airstream trailers, as they are made today, are among the best built mass-marketed trailers on the road today.

It is also true that they could be built so much better.

Just imagine how much better the trailers would be if they followed the Toyota production system or six sigma or integrated more automation into the assembly and adopted industry best practices.

[AKNate]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

It is a sad reflection on the RV industry in general that airstream trailers, as they are made today, are among the best built mass-marketed trailers on the road today.

It is also true that they could be built so much better.

Just imagine how much better the trailers would be if they followed the Toyota production system or six sigma or integrated more automation into the assembly and adopted industry best practices.

I agree. While Airstream could make some massive improvements in their manufacturing quality, they actually are one of the best trailers out there, all things considered. I still wish they would make those improvements.

[2013810]

Originally Posted by aknate

i agree. While airstream could make some massive improvements in their manufacturing quality, they actually are one of the best trailers out there, all things considered. I still wish they would make those improvements.

100%

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

It is a sad reflection on the RV industry in general that airstream trailers, as they are made today, are among the best built mass-marketed trailers on the road today.

It is also true that they could be built so much better.

Just imagine how much better the trailers would be if they followed the Toyota production system or six sigma or integrated more automation into the assembly and adopted industry best practices.

Sorry I had to chuckle on Six Sigma....those guys are run ragged on the line....in the summer as HOT as it is there...you think they are going to worry about deviation? Not a chance.....it's build as fast as they can and get to the time clock......and done.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it used and implemented....but these are assembly workers with a decent rate above minimum wage to build "stuff"...they don't specialize i.e. plumbing one day, ACs the next, electrical the next....and so on.....so that would a very tough training and execution expectation to maintain those target limits.

I hope to be proved wrong going forward.

[Ephraim]

Originally Posted by kittmaster

Sorry I had to chuckle on Six Sigma....those guys are run ragged on the line....in the summer as HOT as it is there...you think they are going to worry about deviation? Not a chance.....it's build as fast as they can and get to the time clock......and done.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it used and implemented....but these are assembly workers with a decent rate above minimum wage to build "stuff"...they don't specialize i.e. plumbing one day, ACs the next, electrical the next....and so on.....so that would a very tough training and execution expectation to maintain those target limits.

I hope to be proved wrong going forward.

A bit off topic, but I thought it might be worthwhile to the discussion of quality management: Just because a program exists doesn't mean it works well. two examples - I worked as an engineer for Martin Marietta (now Lockheed Martin) back in the early 90's. Back then, the buzzword was "Total Quality Management" or TQM.

1) The Company spent Millions implementing this across the board. They basically shutdown operations and sent every single employee to a week long seminar on how it worked. Day one of of the seminar, they emphasized how American management got fixated on slogans, mascots, and mission statements. The message was to forget all of that and just do the job correctly. three weeks later, the company decided that they needed a slogan and just for good measure a mascot. The mascot was a firefly and the slogan was "I've got fire in the belly for TQM".

2) As part of TQM, the company formed teams with one person representing each department that worked on a particular part of a project. We were to analyze the process and determine ways to increase efficiency. Management determined that whatever the team saved the company in costs, they would give 10% of those savings to be split among the team members as a reward. My team was focused on magnetics (toroidal chokes, transformers, and coils). We had 20 members on the team. After three months of intensive work "outside" of normal work hours we were the first team to finish. We streamlined the process and saved the company > $10,000,000/year on the process. It took the company all of about two days to change their 10% policy and we each got a Honey Baked ham as a thank you. (I don't even eat pork).

The whole TQM initiative, while on the books for years, fell apart within just a couple of months and didn't matter a bit. Business as usual.

[Ndcctrucks]

I smile when people proclaim Airstreams are built like aircraft.

While the general appearance and shape were inspired by such aircraft as bombers, Airstreams were never built like planes, neither in design nor in construction, especially by the standards of eighty years ago, let alone today.

But, some people will hold onto their fantasies no matter the facts.

[Ndcctrucks]

Originally Posted by Hermes

From Air forums, except for a front end separation situation in a RB model (FB models have other issues with front end separation), there are very few buck rivets that fail (they can be replaced with an Olympic rivet, which can be shaved and polished with a Dremel to look just like the head of a buck rivet).

As for the interior pop rivets, when I was in JC in 2019 they recommended (and sold me) aluminum rivets with a stainless steel mandrel. It's what they are now installing on the production line. With the stainless steel mandrel, there are fewer rivets popping out and having installed a few, you notice that they fasten tighter than the original all aluminum ones.

EXACTLY: Better-quality rivets for the interior, after the fact. Lost interior rivets is not a new condition; using all-aluminum rivets should never have happened and should have been discontinued years ago. Even still, people are reporting lost interior rivets on near-new trailers today.

I had to replace two buck rivets between my two galley windows on the road side when I bought the trailer 18 months ago (2004 22’ International CCD). Plus about 30 interior rivets.

[kbmwrs]

Totally agree that AS manufacturing could be done better. Robotics and such would be a much better standard of build but.....
That works monetarily for high production of one product....ie, 23' footer. AS builds many styles all at one time (not the best either). Such robotics would have frames stacked up outside waiting on further build. And the cost of such would mean ROI would increase the AS price even more.
Each time a new management style is introduced they try to build a better mouse trap. Some do and some proclaim...."I invented the wheel" and we all sigh....like the TQM example.

[MSL]

I couldn't agree more with the comments; Airstream bragging about "handmade" is a joke ... it means no two trailers are alike and repairs are difficult. Henry Ford got away from this 100 years ago; it's true he had very few models and stipulated "any color you want, as long as it's black". I was at Airstream a month ago for my 2nd and last warranty visit and I had the opportunity to do a factory tour, but I decided against it ... didn't want to frustrate myself observing them bragging about their antiquated methods. Airstream needs to get into the 21st century with their manufacturing methods, but they won't until they're forced to, much as the US auto industry was forced to improve their quality some decades ago.

There are ways to develop equipment to build sub-assemblies that are common to all models or make the equipment easily adaptable. I'm an engineer and was responsible for manufacturing for medical devices. Years ago, my engineering manager and I took seminars of 5S and continuous improvement, and we looked at each other and said, "this is basically what we've been doing right along without the formality"; just good engineering, something Airstream doesn't have.

This all goes back to what I wrote in another post, Airstreams aren't engineered, they just thrown together the way a clever guy might build a go cart in his backyard.

[kittmaster]

Originally Posted by MSL

.......This all goes back to what I wrote in another post, Airstreams aren't engineered, they just thrown together the way a clever guy might build a go cart in his backyard.

I've said this since our journey with AS began. I love my AS, no doubt...warts and all.

What I've discovered is that what it would take for a true engineering team....they don't want to pay for. Salaries for Senior EE's are north of $150K/year......last check they were asking for the same EE for like $75K-90K.

Even adjusted for cost of living, in the middle of nowhere......they are not going to get the team of engineering professionals with those types of wages...then couple that with a utility installation team on the line, one day plumbing, one day electrical, one day tires/brakes. They need an assembly team that does ONE or TWO things and do it well and each with a back up then things would getter better because then there would be accountability. "Hey Jack...you installed this wrong....here's why...please adjust your installation method like this......."

Just for what these things cost, you'd expect to have all the I's dotted and the T's crossed.....

Don't get me wrong, I loved the factory tour...but your statement is spot on...

My DW and I have a new slogan for Airstream after the hell they put us through on our last and final warranty repair: "Airstream......Do Better!".

[JCWDCW]

Originally Posted by Colossus

I
So when I see how the OP was talking about the tour guide made the proud comment of “making it fit” I too cringed.

Rather they make it fit than just install it with gaps and misalignment. At least that is some order of quality control.

Don't hang your hat on a tour guides' comments. They don't know all the assembly practices and pick up what they can over time....using their own personal take on the description.

I've taken the same tour several times ( Not AS but King Ranch in TX) and often get differing answers from different guides.

[Colossus]

Originally Posted by kbmwrs

Totally agree that AS manufacturing could be done better. Robotics and such would be a much better standard of build but.....
That works monetarily for high production of one product....ie, 23' footer. AS builds many styles all at one time (not the best either). Such robotics would have frames stacked up outside waiting on further build. And the cost of such would mean ROI would increase the AS price even more.
Each time a new management style is introduced they try to build a better mouse trap. Some do and some proclaim...."I invented the wheel" and we all sigh....like the TQM example.

The addition of robotics wouldn’t necessarily mean raw materials or whip stacked up outside. It would simply mean they would have to manage their inventory using principles of lean manufacturing. If they have have the right suppliers and common goal agreements among other processes in place or on board to begin with. It all comes down to your supply chain. I’m not saying they can flip a switch and be there, heck I’m still wishing they had 5S / standard work! Lol … very basic tools.

[Good Papaw]

On how AS are built. Owed a ‘72 from 85-2010, a 99 Classic for the next 6 years, the a Dynamax Super C (traitor) and bought a 25’ 2019 in December. Certainly all different, the first one was top shelf, the second okay and I actually think the 19 is better than 99. That said I have spent the last few months “finishing” the thing. Wires pinched under cabinets, no heat to speak off in bedroom as there was 4-5 feet to much duct work crammed under the bed, all four corner windows leaked and the rear cabinet between bed was held down with two screws. AS was like brand new when we purchased and was barely towed. Automations, cameras and metrics will not help this. Only having people that are well trained and care.

[Colossus]

Originally Posted by JCWDCW

Rather they make it fit than just install it with gaps and misalignment. At least that is some order of quality control.

Don't hang your hat on a tour guides' comments. They don't know all the assembly practices and pick up what they can over time....using their own personal take on the description.

I've taken the same tour several times ( Not AS but King Ranch in TX) and often get differing answers from different guides.

I disagree, I’d rather they make it to spec the first time, which should fit without gaps, misalignments and extra trim. The problem with making it fit is when things break in the field, the replacement part will
come within spec and would have to be made to “fit” as well. This is where “we”the customer feel the pain.

[Espresso2go]

I fully agree that more automation would have many benefits. They brag about the labor to make a door. My door has never worked properly, required a warranty fix, and still does not fit properly. (Adjustments after 90 days are not covered by warranty.)
We would never accept that from a car maker.
I toured the old plant. I hoped the new plant would be an opportunity to innovate the process. I'm sorry to hear they missed the opportunity.
Thanks for the report!

[skyguyscott]

I have never been much impressed with RV doors in general, nor airstream doors in particular. Consider that just about any automotive door from just about any automotive make is more solid, more airtight, more soundproof, and more thermally insulated.

Why can’t the RV industry make doors as well as the automotive industry?

Automotive doors, despite being much heavier, never suffer from the misalignment or warpage that you see in RV doors.

Of course this is just one example of the vast engineering gap between the automotive and RV industries.

And don’t get me started on airstream’s insane suicide doors.

[Ephraim]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

Why can’t the RV industry make doors as well as the automotive industry?

Because the resulting RV, built to automotive standards would cost > $500,000 to $1,000,000 and every RV would require a 1 ton dually to pull it.

Not much market for that.