'77 Sovereign 31' Restoration

[dbj216]

Hi Kristof: Well RV toilets have been around a long time. People say Thetford makes a good one. They are gravity flush with rinse. Yes, they must be mounted over the black water tank. The black tank must be vented to allow water in, and allow water to drain out. Your Sovereign had a vented black water tank when new. A new RV toilet is in the $250 range or less.

I've installed four toilets in 4 different Airstream projects. I'm not a believer that ceramic bowls are need in an RV. I do insist on a "down pipe" between the bowl and floor. One Thetford model (Aqua Magic V) makes the lower half of the toilet a black water tank extension. Other Thetford models have a down pipe.

I've never had order issues with our Airstream toilets and black water systems. I do use a macerator pump to drain the waste water from my Airstream as I find the Airstream sewer discharge port sometimes lower than the campground connection. Dirty water won't flow uphill.

So I installed a new black tank, toilet flange, and soon a new toilet in my rear bath Overlander in their original positions. I'm sure it will work just fine.

David

[Kristof]

Hey David:

Your work on the welding side looks fantastic. Wish I were so neat and so skilled.

I am not unfamiliar to RV toilets just trying to find the best end state. i like your comments WRT plastic versus ceramic, agree. I looked at the Aqua magic V - are you saying that is an advantage?

[Kristof]

Max and I are going camping. See you in 4 weeks or so.

[dbj216]

Camping? We have 4" of Colorado powder and still snowing. Airstreams are staying in the garage for me.

I have purchased two Thetford Bravura (sp) toilets. I didn't like the Aqua Magic as they don't have a "down pipe". I purchased one Dometic 310 plastic bowl and didn't like that one as well. It's built like a frying pan, not a pot in my view. And it had a silly plastic pipe thread for water connection. A standard toilet flex hose wouldn't fit right.

David

[youngpeck]

Kris, you have asked me about birch interior and I am happy to reply here.

We have done a total shell-off rebuild. Still finishing up cabinet work. Our old interior skins were pretty beat up and we decided to re-use them and put 1/8" birch plywood (bought at a specialty hardwood dealer) over the old skins. I believe the aluminum skins add significantly to the structural value. The plywood would not do this by itself.

The plywood adds a small insulating factor. While the walls were open we put in two layers of prodex foil-faced insulation, the first kept off the outer skin by using 1/4" blocks of insulation, the second separated from the first by another set of 1" blocks. We did a complete re-wire (both 110- and 12-volt, using boat cable, by the way) and put all wiring between the layers of prodex. We also put a layer of thin (1/8") foam insulation on all the ribs and this has helped keep the heat transfer down significantly at all ribs.

About half way through the application of the birch I decided to start using 5/32" blind rivets (aluminum, which I had to special order through Fastenal), and I wish I had used them on all the birch as well as all the aluminum inner skins. They have significantly greater holding power than 1/8" rivets. Their heads are a slightly larger diameter and so hold the birch better. The 1/8" birch can be a little "crumbly" as you drill holes for the rivets. What to do at the seams? I will be covering them with some thin strips of the same birch, but will have to be careful about the bumps of existing rivets. I discovered copper 1/8" rivets at Hanson Rivet & Supply Co. in California. (They have brass mandrels so as to counteract any galvanic corrosion.) I used these on my end caps. The 1/8" ply is so thin that I won't need to trim out the seams there. I'll be using them on the trim pieces over the seam areas of the birch. Hopefully no more aluminum pop rivets showing!

We picked up a used Isotherm Cruise 200 fridge on Ebay (that's a story best saved for another time) and it works great. We were very happy not to have to cut a vent hole in the newly-installed sub-floor.

All rough framing and some trim was done in redwood. Water-resistant and light-weight. I also used various aluminum extrusions (bar, channel, and angle) here and there for strength, connections, and some framing.

[dbj216]

Wow youngpeck, you did the "full monte" restoration. Maybe some day I will take the opportunity. You are right, the interior skins do add some structural integrity to the body. You are wise to keep them, and clever to cover them with think birch. I bet it looks great.

Have a good trip Kristof...

David

[Kristof]

Hey Folks,

A note to say that I visited the ALDE USA folks in Vancouver WA on the way back from our camping trip the past few weeks to SOCAL and points in between. I spent some time talking with them, visiting the workshop, talking designs and learned many, many things that will help my project. First I noted that ALDE has steamed with AS and they have packages pre-built that you can get and install with all the parts in one neat design that fits your style and length of trailer. I picked up the latest catalogue, talked about the new 3020 system, learned a lot about how the systems are installed, in floor heating and asked lot's of questions about the systems and how they worked. In the next few weeks i will be posting my design and engineering layout for the ALDE 3020 and am looking forward to moving towards this type of heating and hot water system.

[dbj216]

That will be quite interesting. We have hot water heat in our home. I have a friend with the combination of hot water heat also heating the water for his home.

David

[Kristof]

Impromptu session out at Lucy today. Went with my sister Holly and my talented brother-in-law Jim along with the usual cast of Lucy fans - Max, Manfred, Millie and new fan Daisy the golden Doodle. Jim got right into taking cabinets and valise' off walls, Holly sat down and created a system to mark the inner skin before we took it off and Max waded into the last major piece to be removed - the bathroom. We had a great day and achieved a lot. Noted the rusty screw tops and rotted floor in the rear - typical but it looks like a bit more work may be in order when we get the floor off.

[Kristof]

Hey folks amazing two day weekend at Lucy77. Do not forget to click follow on her page to get updates automatically.

This weekend was amazing because we had all the tools we needed, we had planned each day and when it came time for the yucky stuff we had all the right clothes and gear.

So what did we do? Well we got to the point where we could finish removing the last of the walls and pipes etc. The bathroom is now gone! Sort of at the same time we mapped out and prepped the inside panels to come down - we had researched just how yucky this can be and so the preparation was ensuring we would not get glassed to death or get too polluted with all the biology in the walls. We discovered that the floor is only a half inch plywood and is absolutely gone in some places. This was not unexpected as we have read about so many other reno's that the floor issues we have a pretty typical for this year of AS. Hopefully before July we will have the hull stripped inside and then we can start the rebuilding process next fall with the window and door seals, removing AC and vents, re-installing new vents and fans and looking at seals and rivets for leaks etc. If we get to the stage where we are ready to do the floor by next spring, we will be right on track.

Enjoy some detailed snaps.

[dbj216]

I'm quite surprised you found 1/2" plywood for the subfloor. My former 66 25' had 5/8", my 75 27' has 3/4", and our 86 34' has 3/4" OSB. I wouldn't think 1/2" plywood would give the strength needed for a 31' Airstream. It's a moot point as you are probably replacing it anyway.

Thanks for the photos. Your 77 is sure built different than my 75. Yours is a mid bath (good), but the tanks and plumbing sure look different. You are embarking on a long journey renovating this vintage Sovereign.

David

[Kristof]

Hey everyone today we were out for a full work day at Lucy. Not a lot of pictures today as we removed the last two major items in the trailer (toilet and hot water heater) and then made a real mess starting to take down the long inner skin panels that run continuous for about 20 feet or so along the length of the trailer We started on the roof (a long two foot wide panel) that is held up by two long strips of aluminum rail. The panels in the bathroom were doubled up so the bathroom panels came off first, then the panel along the ceiling on the door side. You need two people or more for that one! Also the cutout around the door has rivets inside the inner door frame and are hard to get out. Lot's of mouse leftovers so masks, hats and protective eyewear were a must. Also a good long shower afterwards.

Important notes: While the hot water heater appears to slide out, there is an inordinate amount of sealant on teh inner side which make that impossible. Bend the corners of the screw panels in and push the hot water into the trailer. Otherwise you are fighting the sealant the whole time. The toilet pops forward off the toilet seal quite easily. Wish I had known that.

Questions: Can anyone tell me if all the inner skin is the same thickness and grade of aluminum all around? My observation so far is that the long panels are thicker and heavier than the smaller ones nearer to the floor. This is may be a design or it may be just a construction/production issue. Not that important as I intend to put them all back the way they were and I managed to save them all.

Also, does anyone know how to make the pocket doors that are used in a few places around the trailer (like under the bed) for storage from the outside? In the redesign of the interior those will have to be moved and sized differently.

[dbj216]

According to the "history of aluminum at Airstream" found on these Forums, the exterior of your trailer is H3004-H18 Brite panels .032 thick. There is no mention of the aluminum grade for interior sheetings. You can take your micrometer and measure one of the panels you remove and see the thickness. I bet it is also .032 thick, but maybe more common 5052 material. Don't measure over the laminated on vinyl of course.

New and used cargo door assemblies are available at Airstream Supply and other places. Salvage yards may have one too. Relocating a cargo door is a big project.

Yep, your making a big mess. Ain't it fun?

Good luck with your project.

David

http://airstreamsupply.com/New-Airst...partment_Doors

[Kristof]

Surprise - Surprise we had a great day at Lucy. This was a big day for us we have been studying "how to buck rivet" since January and today was the day we got to attempt our first effort. So what did we learn? Well we learned that with two people coordination is important. We learned that it was not as hard as we thought it was going to be - with the proper tools. And we learned that we have a lot to learn! For us the best lesson was if you have taken the hull down past the inner skin - it is so much better for the whole procedure than if you try and do repairs from the outside through the whole inner skin layers. The way the trailer is built is from the outer to the inner and you can see that process from the inside - the white VULCRUM POLY all on the inner rivets and joints. We took advantage of that as we can rivet away from the outside and then seal from the inside with no issues. In fact I noticed that there are not water leaks on the major seals at all - just near the floor on poor seamanship at the lower levels and window drains. Happy day for us as we are now Buck Riveters!

Note that we used a local supplier of aluminum sheet metal. It was .032 and was coated with plastic on one side- It seems a little "green" compared to the original and much lighter - and we are hoping it will "shine up and deepen" over time.

We are also hoping for some commentary on our effort - good or bad.

[dbj216]

You've earned the "buck riveting" Airstream merit badge. Good for you. It is by far the strongest rivet to use on exterior work of the trailer. It's kinda noisy so protect your hearing or you will end up like me.

David

[Kristof]

Hey folks back at this weekend. Max had to head into the interior off island to help her brother move a dragon (more on that later). I removed the fridge access door and experimented with aluminum polish and technique. I was hoping the local supply of aluminum sheet would shine up - turns out it does not, Looks pretty funny with the shiny rivets and the dull aluminum. So now I have this big hole in Lucy for a week while I wait for some aircraft aluminum 2024-T3 .032 Alclad to be delivered from Aircraft Spruce Canada. What a lucky find! The quality is excellent and it is cheaper than anywhere else I could find - including the local stuff. I will let you all know next weekend how my hole rebuilding goes.

The other thing I was hoping to get are some decent glands for the 7 pin trailer wire. There is a large hole up front that was jury rigged to allow us to tow the trailer legally to get it to Victoria. I Found some really nice stainless steel glands on Amazon and am hoping this will fit the bill.

Not much else other than thinking a few things through and sorting/separating all the wire we removed for potential re-use. That will take some time. Hoping to get all of the potential holes rebuilt and sealed in the next few weeks and then start on the fantastic fans. Removing the AC and the old TV antennae will be the last thing this fall before the rain. I hope to get some windows out and the rubber stripping replaced by Xmas.

In the early spring next year we need to remove the belly pan and start relocating tanks and re-enforcing the frame in certain areas where I am sure it is weak. Summer is nearly over and it feels like we did a lot. Nice clean interior shell just waiting for some TLC.

Pictures next weekend when Max gets back with her phone . . .. .

[dbj216]

I put a thin sheet of stainless steel as a decorative panel in my son's new fridge. Dometic wants a pretty penny for a plastic panel, so I decided to do stainless instead. Your idea of using Alclad is good. You can use the fridge "mirror" to insure your shirt is tucked in before you step out the door.

I plan on closing off the 7 pin connector in the front of the trailer and rerouting it down the A frame and into the spare tire well. My 86 Limited is this way, and my former 66 Trade Wind is this way. I don't know why Airstream make a second 7 pin connector. Just more to go wrong in my view.

David

[Kristof]

Hey Folks we were out Yesterday and Today taking out door panels, small doors and container ports, practicing some aluminum shining and prepping the holes we had left over for for new covers. Really we were waiting for the Aluminum to arrive which should be tomorrow.

This post is twofold: First I want to share some insight into some essentials I found at reasonable prices and make you aware of the cost of some of these things. Second we will share some photos of the holes we are making.

The first photo are some aluminum 1/8 inch rivets. These replace all of the rivets inside the trailer on the inner skin and many of the rivets used to hold fast the weather strips and the panel strips on the outside. They are rust proof aluminum head with steel shanks and are popular sized rivets that fit all hand and air riveters, foreign and domestic
The box contains 250-pc. of each size: 1/8" x 1/4", 1/8" x 5/16", 1/8" x 3/8", 1/8" x 5/8" and costs $60 CAD on Amazon.ca.



The second photo is a STANLEY MR77C Swivel Head rivet gun, highly rated and with many positive reviews. Sets rivets at right angle or straight-on, with a simple twist of rivet head and has rugged die-cast metal construction.
Extra nose pieces and wrench are conveniently stored in handle. This will handle 1/8-Inch , 3/32-Inch , 5/32-Inch and 3/16-Inch diameter Steel and Aluminum Rivets. It cost $32 CAD on Amazon.ca.



If you are doing outside work and cutting Aluminum sheet, you need the third photo. It is an absolutely amazing shear which attaches to your impact drill (which you have with you anyways . . ). Cuts even and without burr - I am very impressed by this product. It is a DEWALT DWASHRIR Impact Ready Shears Attachment. Able to cut up to 18GA material it has a 360-Degree swivel head for maneuverability and connects via standard 1/4-Inch hex shank. Compatible with most 18V-20V impact driver and drills it costs $75 on Amazon.ca.



The fourth photo is something I wish I had found earlier. I usually buy a 7 pin receptacle and wire directly to it. This however is easier to wire up and keeps all of your wires organised and out of the way. It is a 7-Way Trailer Plug Cord with Wiring Junction Box - and cost me $50 CAD on Amazon.ca.



(By the way on the island it is much smarter to use Amazon as the mainland box stores are much bigger with greater options and inventory)

The fifth photo are electrical connectors of various types and gauges. An absolute must the best place for this type of material is my favorite store - Princess Auto.



The sixth to eighth photos are of my riveting box. The first photo has the rivet removal took which I got to round head buck rivets. The interior rivets have a hole that the drill bit sets into so I use just a regular steel drill bit inside the trailer. But on the outside this tool Rocks! You can get it at Vintage Trailer Supply or at the Airstream parts website. It cost around $30 CAD and is very well used. The Cleco fasteners are a must for holding the panels properly which you and your partner rivet away. The buck head for the riveter, air rivet gun and rivets all come as a package from Vintage Trailer. You can find all of that stuff other places but it is just as reasonably priced and much easier to order from VT. I had to wait as some of the pieces were not available but I was not in a hurry and we got the kit inside of 2 weeks.







The last product I would like to talk about is the Poly Euro-thane sealant we found at a local store that matches the AS original. The photo is of the finished product after it is dry - it totally matches the original as far as I can see. We buy this for $7.50 CAD a tube at the local Lowe's store and we apply it on the inside of the trailer skin int he same fashion as the AS techs did on the other joints and rivet heads.




The remaining photos are from today's work. We had a short but productive time and it is nice to see effect. The photos of the tally plates are my polishing effort on the letters. We plan to paint them this coming weekend.

Question of the day: Does anyone know how to shine up the tail light aluminum which is burnished and dirty?

[Kristof]

Today was for sure one of the most productive days we have ever had at Lucy. I had a great plan to finish some work off and had done all of the preparation - Aluminum cuts, paints bought, brushes of all sizes and lot's of polyurethane sealant. We riveted in 5 holes in the exterior from removed doors and equipment, sealed them up and painted one coat on all of the logos and exterior letters and signage. Cannot but offer a big round of applause for my sister and her husband who came out and became one large part of the buck rivetting team LUCY77!

Check out some pictures of our work. Note the generous use of sealant by my sister - LUCY77 will never leak again!

[Jeremy9107]

Enjoying the progress. Thanks for suggestion of that shear for the impact drill. Looks to save a lot of time.

Regarding the nine skins. I have a '70 model and found all f. One to be same thickness. Even the ones that looked to have been replaced at later date.