Replace all 4 hubs on 2018 27 FB Flying Cloud

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Page 16 for the Dexter pamphlet link shows terms.


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[howell57]

What brand replacement brakes would you recommened?
TKX

[switz]

Our 2015 23D International Serenity made in September 2014 had 10" drum non-auto adjust brakes. I had traveled from Colonial in New Jersey to A&P Trailer Works in Paradise, TX via CanAm in London, Ontario, Canada to due conversion work, a distance of around 2,000 miles. I suggested we check the bearings. One set was scored from lack of grease and the others we're nearly as bad. We replaced the off-shore bearings and races with made in the USA Timken bearing sets installed onto the new auto-adjust backing plates we upgraded to at the same time.

In Spring of 2021, we returned to A&P for new 3,800 pound axles with 12" dual puck Dexter disk brakes and a welded on to the axle 3" lift plate. Once again we inspected the new axles. We replaced the off shore bearings with USA made Timken bearings . Dexter barely was thinking about grease there was so little in the original bearing sets we threw away.

Last fall there was conversation about Dexter doing away with their never-lube bearings. So the local shop charged about $450 each for the supposedly last ones for the 5,000 pound axles on our 2014 31' Classic. We had converted to Kodiak disk brakes in the spring of 2014 that had worked okay.

We plan to upgrade the Classic axles in the spring of 2022 to dual puck 12" Dexter disc brakes and a 3" lift kit. We might upgrade the axle 5,000 pound weight ratings as the trailer sits at 9,200 pounds camping ready. The front axle currently supports around 4,076 pounds and he rear axle is supporting 3,083 pounds.

In my Airstream experience so far, the disc brakes require less maintenance and one can readily see the operative parts as contrasted to drum brakes.

Probably best to replace all four drum brakes at the same time so the brake system is reset to like new condition.

[Gene]

At this point, maybe converting to disc brakes would not be much more expensive than rebuilding the drum brakes.

Am I correct that most if not all of the brake problems people have are since Airstream went to Lippert parts? It seems that brakes used to last a lot longer.

If not damaged too much, drums/hubs can be machined, but my impression is this one is toast. Same with disc brake rotors—there is a limit to what you can remove and I think drums have very little room for machining.

Hub sometimes means drum and sometimes means the assembly at the end of the axle. Another case of confusing terminology.

Cars and trucks have had long lasting bearings for generations. Not sure why RV's can't unless it is cost cutting. Half a million RV's per year is a large market. RV manufacturers have been cutting costs for years and the result it lower and lower quality.

[jnm30327]

Originally Posted by switz

We plan to upgrade the Classic axles in the spring of 2022 to dual puck 12" Dexter disc brakes and a 3" lift kit. We might upgrade the axle 5,000 pound weight ratings as the trailer sits at 9,200 pounds camping ready.

1. Would it be OK to install disc brakes without the 3” lift kit? I mean is there some reason the 2 changes go together?

2. What hub are you going to use? Can I keep Never Lube bearings?

3. Does this change require new axles?

Thanks!

[GCinSC2]

Lift kit can be installed w/o changing anything in brakes. Converting to discs does not require a lift kit.

But you’re working in same area so it’s a companion project.

If you have Dexter #11 axle with drum Nev-R-Lube bearings, yes you can strip all of the drum brake off and install discs. I have a pic at home of what it looks like.

Gary

[jnm30327]

I gather from this thread that disc brakes are more rugged and more easily fixed than drum brakes. Can someone explain why this is so? Why are they more rugged and why easier to maintain?

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by jnm30327

Sorry for the lack of response but was trying to understand better the information I have. There have been developments. I am attaching pictures. I made a visit to see for myself.

1. Hub/drum and brake assembly/pads are the names I will use. I am attaching a Dexter description of how brakes work.

2. Only wheels removed were on right side. Front and rear. I have not seen the left side.

3. Rear brake assembly has almost non-existent pads and severely damaged. Rear drum is scored.

4. Front brake assembly has what looks like new pads, but scoring on drum and magnet. You can feel the scoring by wiping a finger across the drum face.

5. It may be that the front assembly was not engaging as pads look like new. If so, then more strain on rear unit.

6. Advice is that whatever you do to one side, you have to do to the other.

7. Advice is to replace all 4 brake assemblies and hubs.

8. It is cheaper to replace entire brake assembly than attempt to replace pads due to more labor needed.

9. Brake assemblies to be Lippert. Hubs to be Dexter.

10. Dexter Hubs are on backorder with delivery date of January although a date so far away may mean they really don't know when hubs will be available.

11. Would it make sense to try to smooth out drums and reuse since replacement may mean a long delay?

Severely damaged rear brake assembly

Attachment 403815

Attachment 403816

Scored drum

Attachment 403817

Score magnet

Attachment 403818

New Lippert Brake assembly

Attachment 403819

Rear brake assembly and scored drum

Attachment 403820

Interesting Dexter pamphlet on how brakes work.

Attachment 403822

More scored drum

Attachment 403823

From where are they on B/O?
Have you checked here?
You just need to measure the drum diameter and width.

Yes you can grind/smooth the magnet plate. I usually do it at every brake inspection, helps extend the magnet life.
Granted the plates were not that rough.
They are removable and and a machine shop could re-surface them and do the drums at the same time.

Disclaimer...an old school bucklenuster here, repair until you no longer can.
Not..OMG that needs replacement.🥴
Problem is we live in a throwaway society and not much can be serviced now.
"Mechanics" have been replaced by interweb assisted parts changers.

Bob
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Originally Posted by jnm30327

I gather from this thread that disc brakes are more rugged and more easily fixed than drum brakes. Can someone explain why this is so? Why are they more rugged and why easier to maintain?

They are not more rugged and do not necessarily last longer.
Depending on how they are set set typically Disc brakes are easier to service. (Change out pads and machine rotors)

There is a litany of reasons to have disc brakes with just a little down side -

Disc brakes have these advantages over drum brakes
The will stop faster
They are by design, self adjusting to the wear of friction material
They have more stopping power for the same pressure
They are far less prone to brake fading (They shed heat faster)
They have less moving parts
They are less negatively impacted by water

Drum brakes have these advantages over disc brakes
They cost less - which is why they are still found in low cost applications
They are self energizing - which is why big trucks still use them
They are easier to include a parking brake
They do not need ABS to prevent lock up because they are less prone to lock up

One other thing that would be unique for a travel trailer situation with disc brakes, that is actuation. Electrically actuated drum brakes have been available for a very long time. Actuating disc brakes is more difficult and expensive. One alternative is surge activation. However that has issues too.

A company like AirStream has another issue when selecting brakes. They don't make them!!! To some degree AirStream has to take what the axle vendor offers for axles. AirStream is in the business of selling an entire product. When sourcing axles it is big deal for them to have a rubber torsion axle source. (They used to own one but that is a different story) Not so much of the brake type as long as the brakes stop the designed load. Dexter is the current vendor. Dexter does offer disc brakes. However that is at higher cost. AirStream has offered disc brakes as an option a number of decades ago. It did not go well because technology was behind the curve.

The cost deal is a big thing. And is made worse by the low unit volume of the RV industry. In an effort to get a product to the market place at an acceptable market price some compromises have to be made. In the arena of brakes (which are not seen on the virtual show room) the lower cost and still does the job choice is made. Many so the seller makes more sales of units.

Until the demand and willingness to pay more money is increased, drum brakes will be the standard

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[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Gene

At this point, maybe converting to disc brakes would not be much more expensive than rebuilding the drum brakes.

Am I correct that most if not all of the brake problems people have are since Airstream went to Lippert parts? It seems that brakes used to last a lot longer.

........

Hi

I do not know of any AS coming stock with Lippert parts on it. The axles assemblies come from Dexter. Dexter brake assemblies are what goes in them. Each time they have been serviced Dexter parts have gone in ours. Lippert seems to be the "better alternative".

Dexter has been around for a long time. Based on what my local service guy tells me, they have had issues pretty much forever and ever. They show up on a lot of RV's and light trucks. He's happy they do ... more work for him ...

Bob

[Gene]

My experience with Lippert (LCI) was not good and I am not alone. Apparently people have trouble with Dexter too. Thanks for the clarity on parts' suppliers. I wonder if Dexter has cheapened their parts in the past decade.

If you raise the trailer, it will perform differently. Low to the ground seems to improve stability and gas mileage, but makes it harder to tow on rough roads and camp in boondocking country. I like stability.

Brake actuater may be a term not understood by the OP. You need more force than your foot to apply brakes. In a car that is provided by hydraulic brakes and usually "power brakes". A car has a "brake booster" that uses engine vacuum to provide enough force to apply the brakes. That force is distributed through hydraulic lines.

Because a trailer is a separate vehicle, how the power gets to the trailer is the issue. 18 wheelers have air lines from the tractor (i.e, truck) to the trailer. You could devise a hydraulic system from the tow vehicle to the trailer, but the ABS system would get very confused. It is easier to transport electricity to the trailer to operate the brakes.

Electric brakes on a trailer use electrically operated magnets to move the shoes. So the activator is the magnet and the power is produced by electricity. On a trailer, disc brakes are the simple part; it is the actuater that is the problem. It is expensive and years ago people complained of problems with them. I have never looked inside an actuator, but I assume electricity is used to power something (like a master cylinder in a car) that pressurizes hydraulic lines to the brakes. I hope the problems have been resolved and prices have come down. Disc brakes are much easier to service. You do not have to pull a drum to check the brakes, but can probably feel the rotors for scoring through the wheel and if you know where to look usually can see the pads to see how worn they are. One reason drum brakes don't get serviced is because you have a lot more to do to check them. The self adjusting system on discs is simple and less likely to failure.

There are other reasons besides volume that make cars and trucks more advanced. One is government regulation that requires more safety. Trailers have much weaker regulation. The other is there are few reviews viable for RV's. Consumer Reports and other such review magazines have had an impact for cars and trucks, but they don't review the myriad RV brands. There is a book that can be bought with reviews, but I suspect few people buy it. There was an internet review site some years ago, but it languished (last I saw on it, Airstreams did not fare well on reliability). There has been very little pressure on RV manufactures for improvements and it shows.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Gene

My experience with Lippert (LCI) was not good and I am not alone. Apparently people have trouble with Dexter too. Thanks for the clarity on parts' suppliers. I wonder if Dexter has cheapened their parts in the past decade......

.

Hi

My local mechanic has been working on trucks and trailers for several decades. He has not seen any significant overall change in Dexter reliability. His phrase was " they are what they are and what they always have been ....".

Bob

[switz]

By now the casting of the drum brake castings are probably being cast in China on automated lines. The metalurgy has been honed to the cheapest level possible. The Texas distributir says they put the thinnest film of grease possible into the bearings. That statement was reinforced by the bearings pn one wheel being scored on 2,000 miles on the first tip and hardly any trace on the ither three wheels.

I do not trust their off shore Never-Lube bearings. USA made Timken bearings with regular service for us on both trailers going forward.

[ROBERT CROSS]

^
👍

Nothing is for never...especially working mechanicals.

Although the makers have arbitrarily defined the term to match whatever parameters THEY feel to be never...."let's go for 100k, that's a good number, that should slip by."🥴

Bob
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[GCinSC2]

Originally Posted by switz

By now the casting of the drum brake castings are probably being cast in China on automated lines.

Just a point of interest, has anyone looked on a Dexter drum or disc brake rotor and seen the cast in WF?

It's Waupaca Foundry, plant 1 is in Waupaca, WI https://www.waupacafoundry.com/history they go back to the late 1800's.

These are from my collection a Dexter drum from a 2016? unit and rotor from a 2010 I highlighted the WF in the castings. This caught my eye cause I toured the Tell City foundry about 20 yrs ago.

Gary

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

Just a point of interest, has anyone looked on a Dexter drum or disc brake rotor and seen the cast in WF?

It's Waupaca Foundry, plant 1 is in Waupaca, WI https://www.waupacafoundry.com/history they go back to the late 1800's.

These are from my collection a Dexter drum from a 2016? unit and rotor from a 2010 I highlighted the WF in the castings. This caught my eye cause I toured the Tell City foundry about 20 yrs ago.

Gary

Thank's GARY good to know. 👍

Bob
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[Action]

Perfect!!!

Regarding grease in wheel bearings .....
The automotive industry went to sealed for life wheel bearings in the 1990s for cars and light 4X2 trucks. It was phased in as wheel hub designs were updated.

Most of the time the hubs and wheel bearings will last for decades and many hundreds of thousands of miles. And the amount of grease inside the hub around the bearings is far far less than hand packing. Typically hand packing introduces some dirt, and usually there is too much grease. Plus a sealed wheel bearing is less cost to manufacture with a very long service life.

Beat up the manufacture for reducing costs. Because the manufactures do get beat up at the point of initial sale too, for a competitor that is selling for less. Few buyers will pay more than the competition.

Look at Ford Motor Company, a very major player in the automotive world. A few years back they announced that they would no longer sell essentially cars. Trucks, SUVs and crossovers would be the only vehicles manufactured to be sold in the US market. It was too difficult to sell cars in the US market because of price! The notable exception is Mustang, the single "car" that is sold by Ford in the US automotive market place. And it is because the consumer demands lower price and the competition is willing to deliver.

You can complain about cheap parts. And that is what is being demanded when the vehicle goes to market.

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[ROBERT CROSS]

^
Hundreds of thousands of miles? Got the proof?
I haven't seen it with the many I've been involved in replacing both as a tech and manager.
The operating environment can dramatically affect service life, blanket statements need not apply.



Bob
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

^
Hundreds of thousands of miles? Got the proof?
I haven't seen it with the many I've been involved in replacing both as a tech and manager.
The operating environment can dramatically affect service life, blanket statements need not apply.


Bob
����

Really? Not sure what kind of proof other than pics of odometers.

Besides the 4 daily drivers in my house hold. Two with over 200,000 miles the other two with over 100K miles and by different manufactures.

When was the last time anyone repacked their wheel bearings as maintenance on a car in the last several decades?
Have you on your non-4X4 daily driver?
The rear wheel bearings on any FWD car since the early 1990s have been sealed. Rear wheel drive is a bit old school and trucks/SUVs with RWD and no 4X4 have sealed front wheel hubs with removable disc rotors. No service bearings, replace only in the event of a failure.

This technology was embraced by many car manufactures back then and remains a standard today. Preventive maintenance has been reduced a lot from the 1970s and earlier by newer car designs and technology. Not just wheel bearing technology either.

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[GCinSC2]

2005 Dodge Ram 2500 front wheels use complete hub assemblies. I'm original owner 221K hubs are original.

2000 VW Beetle 1.9L TDI. Bought at 37K, currently 441K. Replaced hub bearings a few years ago, same R&R bearing procedure as Nev-R-Lubes mileage at R&R not sure over 200K wouldn't be far off.