Disc brakes.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Safety is the order of the day for disc brakes.

Safety "SHOULD ALWAYS" be at the top of everyones list whether at home or away and as well at work or play.

Never have heard of "TOO MUCH SAFETY".

Andy

[Jim & Susan]

Never have heard of "TOO MUCH SAFETY".

Andy

I agree with you on the brakes, but you've obviously never been in the military. LOL!

Jim

[Tarheel]

I worked on nuke subs, talk about safety redundancy, but we (Norfolk) never lost one because of a mechanical problem. When my life and that of my family is on the line I want to be as safe as I know how to be or can afford to be.

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by Tarheel

I worked on nuke subs, talk about safety redundancy, but we (Norfolk) never lost one because of a mechanical problem. When my life and that of my family is on the line I want to be as safe as I know how to be or can afford to be.

Couldn't agree more. I have great respect for the military, especially those serving today. I'm talking about the silliness of simple things like cutting the grass wearing: strap on steel toes for you boots, shin guards, gender specific groin area protection, breathing mask, log sleeves, ballistic sun glasses and a crash helmet. That's overkill, kinda like OSHA and the EPA run amok.

Jim

[Inland RV Center, In]

Jim and Susan.

I was in the Air Force when the jets first came on the scene.

I did electronic research in the field of Audiology as well as other fields.

Agreed, most military equipment is designed and built by the "low bidder." Safety is not as much of a concern or issue as much as performance.

This is especially true, if that equipement failed and harmed just a few people, as we all know that the military considers a persons life as "expendable."

But, when that harm could happen to hundreds of thousands, it becomes a different story.

On a Nuke sub, you live, eat and breathe safety, or "ELSE".

But, most of my work was in a laboratory, other than riding jump seat in many different aircraft to take sound level measurements, both in jets and reciprocation engine type aircraft, as well as on the ground.

Greatest thing we taught was the danger of loud noises or sounds, and how to protect your ears from it.

Our younger generation today, will certainly be buyng many hearing aids, when they reach 40 years old, if that long.

Andy

[jcanavera]

Silvertwinkie posted this picture on his web site. He took this while at Jackson Center while visiting the factory. I'm just curious about the postion of the brake line. Don't you think that this is subject to damage when a tire blows? I figure that's all you need a blown tire and a ruptured brake line.

Jack

[Inland RV Center, In]

Jack.

We strive to place as much of the hydraulic lines that we can on the back side of the axle mounting plate, minimizing the exposure should a tire blow, as well as from rocks.

We agree that the Airstream installation (pictured here) exposes itself to damage from a blow out and rocks. But, they may feel that is very unlikely to happen.

Again the issue becomes what degree of safety is acceptable. The higher degree of assurance in this case, is definitely more expensive, as there is more work involved hiding as much of the steel lines as possible.

Andy

[TomW]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

..Again the issue becomes what degree of safety is acceptable. The higher degree of assurance in this case, is definitely more expensive, as there is more work ...

I'm honestly a little surprised to see you attach a price tag to safety, Andy. Not that I don't agree, but every car/truck that I own/have owned has never been designed with hydraulic lines exposed like Jack's example.

At face value, it appears Airstream did not design the routing, but merely incorporated a kit.

No attack intended. Someone please delete this post if it appears that way.

Tom

[Inland RV Center, In]

TomW

We are saying the same thing.

I merely suggested that with a little more effort, and expense, the lines pictured could have been installed in a manner that could better minimize the risk of damage.

I have not attached a price tag to that design. Airstream has, for whatever reason or reasons that they may have.

We choose the more expensive way. In fact, for one of our customers, we encased all the steel lines in copper tubing, per his request.

We do feel however, that the steel lines can take a fair amount of punishment, and still survive. But a blowout could, possibly, fracture a line.

Andy

[TomW]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

...We do feel however, that the steel lines can take a fair amount of punishment, and still survive. But a blowout could, possibly, fracture a line...Airstream has {established a price tag}, for whatever reason or reasons that they may have...

Fair enough.

But did I notice a not-so-hearty flexline near the aft tire in the line-of-fire?

BTW, I know you have no control on what they design.

Tom
p.s.



You da man!

[jcanavera]

I guess I have heard enough stories about the damage that occurs when a steel belted tire starts falling apart under speed. Damaged wheel wells, damage sewer outlets seem to be a common thread. I would guarantee you that if that was my trailer, I would be doing a little extra work to fashion up some protection for those lines. That routing as shown in the picture really isn't acceptable in my eyes.

Jack

[joatmon]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

...In fact, for one of our customers, we encased all the steel lines in copper tubing, per his request.

Copper is much milder than steel.

[markdoane]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

. . . . In fact, for one of our customers, we encased all the steel lines in copper tubing, per his request.

They won't last very long if they get wet. Can you say "galvanic corrosion".

[74Argosy24MH]

Originally Posted by TomW

But did I notice a not-so-hearty flexline near the aft tire in the line-of-fire?

There needs to be a flex line because of the motion of the axle end.

Airstream probably assumes in the case of a tire failure it will take the flex line out way before the steel tube so the position is not that important. And there is no way to get away from a flex line with the way the axles are built.

John

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by 74Argosy24MH

There needs to be a flex line because of the motion of the axle end.

Airstream probably assumes in the case of a tire failure it will take the flex line out way before the steel tube John

Well to sum it all up no matter which way you look, if the tire blows and shreds, you stand a pretty good chance of losing the brakes. Hmmm....heads you lose, tails you lose.

Jack

[Inland RV Center, In]

Jack.

Not necessarily so.

The flex line is near the center of the wheel. If a tire blows, considering centrifical forces, the shreaded rubber will sling away from the center, not towards it.

However, I agree, goofy things can happen.

Andy

[Silvertwinkie]

Having seen this, I am sure the engineering folks thought of it and deemed it safe. I'm in no position to agree or disagree, it is what it is...for now.

I can only say that being an avid car enthusiast as well, you don't see many, if any car builders put significant sections of the brake lines on the outside sections of the frame. The majorty of the lines are placed on the inside of the frame with only 4 flex hoses or as some upgrade to, stainless steel braided hoses descretely connected to each wheel from the secured line areas.

Now I understand the complexity of doing this on an Airstream with an enclosed underside and other possible logistical roadblocks from the wheels to the brake fluid tank area that cars don't ususally have to overcome. However, even with that complexity, as Jack and Andy pointed out, the risk is not zero, nor do I feel the risk is close to zero that in a blowout situation or something else that the exposed brake line might not be in a good position. Say the inside sidewall of the tire blows, tears some rubber off the tire at 55mph and it slaps around and around in the wheel well housing until it breaks off. Anyone here want to play the laws of probability to see if in fact they loose full braking ability if the line gets damaged or becomes an open line or if it happens on a hill or an awkward place?

As I said, I'm no engineer, but if I were doing this on a car of mine, I'm not sure I'd have done it the same way, but I'm no engineer, just some excessive compulsive individual.

[jcanavera]

I don't want to be paranoid or belabor the issue, but the forum is full of posts from folks who have blown a tandem axle tire and didn't even know it until someone passing by signaled them. Compound that by the fact that we have the reports of damage caused by broken steel belts, and I get this uneasy feeling.

Personally I'm sure someone at the table at Airstream raised their hand and questioned this routing decision. So the ultimate answer to this question will be what the consumer experiences as these trailers go into use. It will be interesting to watch the positioning of these lines as the production run goes on. If you eventually see movement of the lines or shielding, you will know whether the school of hard knocks graduated some more students.

Jack

[Inland RV Center, In]

Jacks got it right.

Right now, it's opinions.

We need to wait and see the results of the "test of time".

Andy

[joatmon]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

...Right now, it's opinions.

We need to wait and see the results of the "test of time".

This thread contains opinions and observations. The auto manufacturers' "test of time" period occurred long ago. They chose a different routing for hydraulic lines.

I personally am not looking forward to reading about someone who lost every single wheel brake they had just because one tire blew apart. Unfortunately, that is where this current setup is headed.

Electric brakes have a good chance of working on the remaining wheels if one tire blows out & takes that wheel's wiring with it.

By Federal law for trucks/autos, a failure on either the front axle or the rear axle shall not leave the vehicle without the use of the remaining axle. No redundancy in Airstream's installation from what I have read.

A properly installed add-on kit from InlandRV appears to be safer than Airstream's current factory installation.

Just another opinion from the Internet.