Disc Brake Lag, Pressure vs. Time

[GCinSC2]

Disc Brake Lag and EOH System PSI vs. Time

I have read on two forums that trailers with disc brakes are almost universally accused of having objectionable disc brake lag or a noticeable delay in trailer brake actuation vs. the tow vehicle. I don’t share that observation but I can easily understand where that comment can come from. I really think it comes from an unmaintained trailer or incorrectly setup rig.

I still consider myself a newbie and my observations are based on one trailer only, but I think I have done a lot of work on my trailer brakes, by my unofficial count; I have bled them about 10 times in about 3 years. Several actuator issues, the AS ActiBrake recall, BTW “passed” inspection but I replaced with Carlisle, Carlisle failure, re-installed old ActiBrake, ActiBrake failed, Carlisle repaired and re-installed, longer brake hoses, reconfiguration of longer brake hoses and in the middle of all of this, new Dexter axles, more brake bleeding, disc brake calipers dragging and overheating, repairing calipers etc. You get the idea and the better half has patiently sat in the seat and operated the controller for bleeding.

My rig is a 2007 Classic Ltd. 30’ slide out. Dexter 5,000 Lb axles, Carlisle actuator and a MaxBrake controller.

I primarily addressed two issues as I did all of this work that I want to focus on.

1. Short brake hoses and the resulting kinking. This has been presented several times with several solutions. I feel that I had a single hot brake from a kink early in my experiences.
2. How do you know when the trailer brakes are completely bled? This is a very important issue and directly relates to brake lag.

When AS built this trailer they used a flexible brake hose with inverted flare female and male ends. They routed the lines in from behind the calipers, came over the top of the caliper and rather sharply “curved” the hose into the calipers. See Hose Routing 1. This also requires a 3/8” female to a male M10 bubble coupling as the Dexter calipers are female M10 bubble. What this caused IMHO was a system that COULD trap air in the inboard caliper casting while it is trying to push fluid down to the outboard caliper housing for bleeding purposes.

I reconfigured the flexible hose to come in from underneath, then transition to a steel line curving back into the caliper, see Hose Routing 2. These pic’s are just mockup shots of the components. I also fabricated a short steel bracket to support the line. See Brake Hose to Line for my installed and running version. The single biggest advantage that I feel that this offered is the ability to loosen the nut on the steel line where it enters the caliper and use this as a bleeding point. This allows independent inboard and outboard caliper bleeding. I think if you tried to do this with the rubber hose, you risk a twist in the hose that you really didn’t want. I also truly believe that the mere flow of fluid out of a bleed screw is NOT a guarantee that the entire systems nooks and crannies are bled and AIR free. Air will hide in the physical high points in a system like this, getting an air bubble to go down and out, not as easy as it seems.

If I was starting over on this hose routing, I’d seriously look at coming in from the front and running the line/hose down the trailing arm somehow just like the rear brake hose would be routed on a motorcycle rear wheel brake, as opposed to coming in from behind like the AS.

In your passenger car or TV, your leg applies ONE stroke to the brake master cylinder, pressure is created and braking occurs. IF you had an air bubble in your car or TV brakes, the observation could be that you have to pump the pedal to create braking of that you have to push the pedal farther than normal to build pressure. But with Electric Over Hydraulic (EOH) you start the command for braking with an electric signal from the controller and a pump starts pumping and tries to create pressure. The difference is that the pump will compress the air bubbles in the EOH system and as soon as the air bubble is compressed, hydraulic pressure starts to build. And it is the creation of hydraulic pressure in the system that starts the braking process. This pressure will not exist until the caliper pistons are touching the brake pads and the pads are physically being compressed against the brake rotors. And the delay in the creation of hydraulic pressure compared to the drivers request for braking that I believe is the big source of disc brake lag.

How do you know when the brakes are bled?

I consider myself fairly handy and creative on mechanical issues, and still learning. So to answer this question I turned to a 1,000 PSI gage. I had to make an adaptor from ¼” MPT to M10 bubble. A small block of steel and what is known as a M10 banjo bolt to attach it to the caliper. Then the proof comes from two sources. First the relaxed, confident feel of my braking while towing and second this video.

Hyd Test - YouTube

It is a simple 5 second shot of the PSI gage ramping up. Unfortunately we do have one variable in this, how much of a request for braking did my better half initiate from the MaxBrake slider control? Sorry. But using video editing software I was able to view a timeline from the audio track showing the audible start of the pump soundtrack vs. the response on the gage.
From the start of the audio it was only about 0.5 second to 200 PSI. and it peaked at about 700 PSI.

In my driving observations, I can report a smooth coordinated TV and EOH braking. No scary brake lag, no brake surges. I like my brakes.

What would I look for on your trailer with EOH?

Hose routing. Contact to frame shows as a rubbed spot on the hose, hose twisted and any kink or evidence of a kink at the caliper fitting.

Actuator wiring connections. A frequent topic on all brake electrical circuits, don’t forget the 7 pin.

Controller, just curious, are you sure it is EOH compatible? Not all are.

Excessive rotor runout. If the rotor has warped and is actually pushing the pistons in farther into their caliper bores than normal, it will take a bit more time to get the pistons to go back out and start the clamping process. Time = lag.

Periodic inspections, with the wheel off if at all possible, check the condition of the PISTON DUST SEALS. Each Dexter caliper has 4 pistons and 4 seals. Any tears, cuts or cracks can allow moisture to get in and start corrosion between the steel pistons and cast iron caliper housings. See Corrosion picture. This corrosion can IMHO and experience can absolutely cause sticky pistons creating dragging brakes and the question from the toll taker on the only toll road in SC, Are your wheels supposed to be smoking? Yup, it happened to us. The brakes (1 axle only) were smoking. And I had to hydraulically disconnect an entire axle set of brakes to prevent complete brake destruction. Invest in an infrared non contact digital thermometer; you will not be disappointed in how many different diagnostic things it can help with.

Brake Pad to Caliper Corrosion. The pads must not be stuck on the calipers. Cleaning the caliper pad mount surface with a stiff wire brush and removing any rust scale, then a light film of brake caliper grease on the pad to caliper mounting ears.

Brake Fluid Flushing. Recommended to flush out fluid that might be moisture contaminated to prevent future corrosion. Piston to caliper corrosion can cause brake drag, overheating and failure. We never did hear a final from HAP3 on his catastrophic hose failure

We obviously need dependable powerful brakes. The trailer came with the EOH and I just wanted it to be as good as possible, hence many of the DOT 3 bleeding sessions. I really think I didn’t come up with a secret fix; I just didn’t give up until I was satisfied with the brakes. And we rely on hydraulic disc brakes for just about every modern passenger car and light truck braking system. They are proven performers with uncountable road miles of service.

Please use caution and common sense; these are your brakes we are discussing. I made my own decisions, and only offer my opinions and actions.

Regards,

Gary

Both of these threads also have significant disc brake observations and owner input. I wish HAP3 would have advised on his outcome in the total brake failure.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f439...lag-80150.html
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f439...sic-80867.html

[slowmover]

Outstanding work, Gary!!

Bookmarked.

Look forward to doing a more careful second reading, and more reading around on the subject (past the links provided).

Thanks for starting this thread on going through the system piece-by-piece (with testing)!

.

[dznf0g]

Good job Gary. I concur with your findings although I haven't yet completed my line mods to make bleeding easier and more complete. I do believe the actuator, the controller and air in the system lead to delayed application. I have bled the system (I did get at least one large bubble out...it's hard to tell on the inboard caliper with factory lines), moved to a DirecLink controller. I have now reduced the lag to what you would expect by your video, and it is really imperceptible except in a panic stop.

[boondockdad]

Outstanding post. Thanks, Gary.

Excellent advice on dust seal inspection. BTW, seating those boots was much easier with a section of 2" PVC pipe, and a mallet

[GCinSC2]

Rednax,
dznf0g
Boondockdad,

Thank you all for the kind comments.

I think a large portion of my efforts was from planetary mis-alignment.

I don't think we can relax on dust seal inspection and with that also look for an uneven wear of friction material, inboard vs. outboard. If you see uneven wear, that could be pad drag from external corrosion pad to caliper or steel piston to cast iron caliper housing wear. The steel piston to cast iron corrosion IMHO is the potential real problem. The picture of the caliper and (exposed for dis assembly) pistons was only in service a VERY short time and then very serious brake drag occoured, the toll booth statement above. One major part of preventing the corrosion is the dust boot and I'm adding that I will never pressure wash my brakes, ever. Never did it, ain't gonna.

I did do piston seal and dust boot replacement along with cleanup and in my last 3 outings since the revisions, no issues to report. I even made up a caliper service "test bench" for dis assembly and even some bench testing up to about 400psi using a pickup truck pedal assembly and its clutch master cylinder. I'm sorta certified crazy, I know. Under pressure testing this rig was able to deflect a bolted steel angle iron even with additional C clamps to press against.

One thing that you might want to put in your carry tool box if you are a DIY'er a 3/16" brake line plug. IF you had a bad caliper, you can disconnect the flex hose from the T or elbow and plug the fitting, disabling that single caliper and retaining the remaining calipers. I had to do it in camp after the toll booth observation.

Preventing long term corrosion is another matter, PM me if you would like those .02$.

Thanks,

Gary

[dznf0g]

Today I found all four of my brake hoses cracked and bulging. Gary (GCinSC2) was most kind with his time on the phone and text, etc. in helping me with part numbers and sources to get the AS ready for a trip next weekend. THANKS!!!!

I am not looking forward to the bleeding process. Not only is there no bleeder on the inboard caliper half, but you can't get the caliper mounting bolts out without splitting the halves as the crossover line is in the way!!!!! That means completely draining the calipers and starting with empty calipers.

That also means the "flipping over of the caliper" method of purging air from the inboard side won't work, as you need to mount the caliper to run the pump......can't mount it and dismount it with the crossover line installed!!!!

I'd like to horsewhip the engineer who thought this one up.

[GCinSC2]

Rich,

Horse whipping might be a start. The only plus is once you get it right, its quite a braking system.

Best news is you found this issue prior to setting out.


Glad I had some old part number info laying around.

Good luck,

Gary

[dznf0g]

Yeah, Gary, the system works really well with a Tuson controller, and most recently I ran to the Keys and back with the new version of the GM ITBC that is compatible with E over H systems. All I can say is "wow!" I had to use them hard twice from people pulling out in front of me. Smooth hard braking without lockup of the trailer. I was impressed. Just hope I feel confident I get all the air out of the system with this repair.

[boondockdad]

Yup, Gary is the man when it comes to this E/H brake system...

Do you have a good (reasonably priced) source for the Dexter parts?
or
Are there less expensive aftermarket replacements... particularly for rotors?

[dznf0g]

Gary provided me an Advance Auto part number for 2" longer hoses. The existing caliper adapter fits to the hose. The part number is BHA86594. They are hoses for really old AMC, Ford, Lincoln models and will probably have to be ordered.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by boondockdad

Yup, Gary is the man when it comes to this E/H brake system...

Do you have a good (reasonably priced) source for the Dexter parts?
or
Are there less expensive aftermarket replacements... particularly for rotors?

I am afraid, for the hard parts, we are stuck with Dexter only pieces. I know of no crossover for rotors, pads nor calipers.....and the pads are outrageous!

[KJRitchie]

Rich, were the hoses you need to replace parts from the brake hose recall? I had this performed in 2013 when I purchased m 2008 from the Airstream dealer. They also replaced the Actibrake with a Dexter unit.

Kelvin

[dznf0g]

No, my old hoses were original. I'd rather do my own work, especially with the finicky bleeding process. My bad for not getting on it before the hoses got to the point of near failure.

[KJRitchie]

Maybe you've detailed the bleeding process in another thread but could you include it in this thread? Reading about the issues with these hydraulic brakes I'm wishing I had the electric brakes.

Can Airstream, Jackson Center, do brake work? In a couple of years we plan to do some extensive travelling. I may take our Airstream to Jackson Center to have them inspect the brakes and flush them.

Kelvin

[boondockdad]

Did you use a bleed pump?
Last rebuild, I had my son pull the breakaway plug to pressurize/bleed.
Discovered, those little things don't like being dis/connected repeatedly... it melted. (maybe a bad switch?)

I know what you're saying about servicing yourself.
I won't have J/C touch my A/S, after the last few "service" experiences down there....

[SteveH]

I too have gone thru all the gyrations with the brakes that Gary has, save the pressure gage and the addition of the steel line at the calipers. By the way, just my opinion here, but I would not use the steel line, and there is a reason that in all brake installations, rubber lines are run to the caliper/wheel cylinders, and that is metal fatigue may eventually brake the steel line.

I have bled the brakes so many times I've lost count. Actually made a test cable with a 7 pin socket and a push button switch so I can bleed them by myself without the inevitable shouting match with my DW.

My Actibrake also tested good at an "Airstream Certified Service Center", (quotations because I don't believe it), and then less than a year later, the Actibrake failed. Replaced it with a Dexter actuator, and in less than six months it failed in the on mode. Dexter did give me a replacement and it has been working well so far.

The last thing I did to the system was add a 2lb pressure residual valve just after the actuator, and after our latest trip to Nova Scotia and back, I do believe it has helped reduce the delay.

However, the Dexter techs actually told me I would never get all of the delay out of the system. I agree with Kelvin, wish I had electrics.

[dznf0g]

Yes JC does brake work. We talk a lot about the shortcomings of the disc system, but they really aren't any more repair/maintenance demanding than any electrics I have had in the past. My Actibrake wasn't in the recall population and is original (jinx). There is no adjusting, and I have never had to replace pads, nor any other components than the hoses mentioned above. I did work with Dexter on field testing some anti-rattle clips for the pads (which I believe are on all production units). The performance of discs, IMO and experience, is far superior to the drum setups.


As for bleeding, it would be great if one made up a controller with long leads so you could slowly ramp up pressure. I haven't spent any time with this. I simply pull the pin for the breakaway switch. Full apply pressure does aerate the fluid more than a slight application with a controller. The Actibrake, with the pin pulled will run for 20 seconds or so and shut off, holding full line pressure. This repeats about every 30 seconds.

1) Start with bleeding the outer caliper through the bleeder, just like any automotive application. Continue until clear new fluid comes out into your clear bleeding hose. Close the bleeder when no more large bubbles appear in the stream.

2) while system is under full pressure, barely crack the line fitting on the inboard caliper half so that it is a bit above a weep and not loose. Watch and listen carefully. You will see small bubbles in the "puddle" around the fitting. You will hear the pop and snap of air escaping through the fitting threads. In addition, the fluid that runs down the caliper into your catch pan will appear foggy, or cloudy, as it is full of tiny aeration bubbles. Tighten the line fitting when you see clear drips coming off the caliper and lack of cloudy fluid in the pan where fresh fluid is dripping and you hear/see no more aerated fluid at the loose fitting.

3) repeat steps 1 and 2 for the rest of the calipers.

4) Replace the breakaway pin and let the system rest for 10 minutes while all stratified aeration comes to the top of all caliper halves and coalesces into a single larger bubble.

5) Repeat all steps 3 more times.

6) as a final bleed, start with loosening the line fitting about 3/4 - 1 turn BEFORE pulling the breakaway pin. HOPEFULLY, this will purge most or all of the inboard caliper air without aerating it too much under actuator pressure. Tighten the line fitting and repeat with other 3 calipers.

7) Finally bleed all outboard caliper halves and ensure that clear, new fluid is in your bleed cup or pan.

This process took a bit over a quart of new fluid for me, but, as noted above, I had new hoses and empty(ish) calipers after my hose replacement.

[dznf0g]

BTW, When I finished, my crystal ball said I had all the air out. Then I got out my "8 ball" and it said "maybe". We'll see when I take the AS out Monday.

[Alphonse]

This thread exemplifies the value of this forum! Thanks Gray for all your hard work in getting it started and almost three years later still catalyzing more great discussion and info building into the thread. Thanks to all.

[GCinSC2]

Briefly.

I have a combination steel loop and traditional brake hose. All standard brake line components. You must have a length of rubber hose to allow for axle movement. The steel line is supported by a steel bracket I added and the line is secured by a rubber lined clamp.

I don't have any leads on substitute Dexter parts.

I tried to cover the bleeding .02$ in the pressure vs time thread. I assure you that this caliper design can and easily creates an air trap on the inboard caliper.

The Dexter dust piston seal should be carefully monitored for condition. Any cuts or tears can allow water in and a steel piston in a cast iron caliper will easily rust.

I did install Dexter caliper seals and new dust boots in one of my axle sets. Working just fine.

At work so just wanted to hit a high point or two.

We have the most powerful brakes, give them some inspections and enjoy the trip.

Got more reading to do when I get home.

Rich, good luck on the trip.

Gary