Upgraded to Michelin LTX? No Warranty.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

To be clear, Michelin "used" to also offer a 15" LT rated tire, that many of installed on our AS's. Not sure if it was 2014 or 15, when they stopped offering in 15". (Any help appreciated here on the year.) I installed the LTX 15" MS/2s on my 2014 25' FC, arguing with the installer that the "rating" would support the weight; he arguing, that they now are P rated tires...but he begrudgingly said, yes and installed them. I noticed a big difference over the previous 2008 AS 25' Safari I had the Michelins installed on prior to the 2014 model...(following me still??) I noticed the P rated newer Michelins, although they may have been "ok" with supporting the weight per the tire chart, they felt mushy and I am certain the trailer faded or seemed to wander a bit more then the earlier LT rated Michelins I had been using. Reading the Forum, if I was so fixated on Michelins, I should have upgraded to 16" Sendals, and gotten the Michelins LT rated to be safe. Well, now I have the 28' and swapped out the GYM's with the LT rated GY Endurance and I am happy...no issues. Running at 50-55PSI for my weight, happy with the ride, and performance so far. Moral for me is, if you want the Michelins and don't have 15" wheels, do the right thing and upgrade your wheels to 16" so you can at least get an LT rated Michelin...or go with the GYE's newer Endurance model at 15". (Whew!)

My mistake above...I am running GY Endurance ST rated; not LT....

[switz]

The factory used this SenDel wheel for the 16" Michelins they installed:

T03-66655T

The technical specs are here:

http://sendelwheel.com/wheels/t03sm.html

We also used the SenDel five lug 15" T03-56545T wheel on the stock 10" brake drums of our 2015 23D International Serenity when upgraded from 14" to 15" tires and wheels. We installed Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires and carry 44 psi in them.

The captioned webpage above is below. Note that the five lug 15" SenDel wheel could reuse the center hubs from the 14" wheels. The 16" SenDel wheels could reuse the center hub from the stock 15" wheels on our Classic.

[jcanavera]

Most likely then Airstream will have to make a tire change on their Classic's when their supply of Defender's end. The logical replacement in their model line that carries the same price point is the Agilis. However the markings on these tires are somewhat different. Here is a caution for tire buyers with the Euro rated tires considering changing to an LT rated tire. https://www.ustires.org/sites/defaul...B_49_USTMA.pdf

The LT rated AGILIS with the LT moniker requires 90 psi to meet the same weight carrying rating as the Defender LT's. That will exceed the inflation rating to the 6 bolt pattern T03 Sendel wheels.

https://www.michelintruck.com/refere...tion-tables/#/

To get the heavier rating at lower PSI, it seems that you might have to move to the Euro Metric models. I noticed that Discount tire does list the Euro versions of this tire and the LT version. But they don't seem to clarify the load rating other than to display C8 for the Euro and E for the LT.

This really is a buyer beware that you need to consider that wheel inflation pressure limit and purchase the correct Agilis tire for your application.

Jack

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by jcanavera

Most likely then Airstream will have to make a tire change on their Classic's when their supply of Defender's end. The logical replacement in their model line that carries the same price point is the Agilis. However the markings on these tires are somewhat different. Here is a caution for tire buyers with the Euro rated tires considering changing to an LT rated tire. https://www.ustires.org/sites/defaul...B_49_USTMA.pdf

The LT rated AGILIS with the LT moniker requires 90 psi to meet the same weight carrying rating as the Defender LT's. That will exceed the inflation rating to the 6 bolt pattern T03 Sendel wheels.

https://www.michelintruck.com/refere...tion-tables/#/

To get the heavier rating at lower PSI, it seems that you might have to move to the Euro Metric models. I noticed that Discount tire does list the Euro versions of this tire and the LT version. But they don't seem to clarify the load rating other than to display C8 for the Euro and E for the LT.

This really is a buyer beware that you need to consider that wheel inflation pressure limit and purchase the correct Agilis tire for your application.

Jack

Allow me to clarify:

First, this isn't as big a deal as Jack is making it out to be. For practical purposes, the difference between LT and C type tires is miniscule - provided you line up as best you can the difference in the way the 2 systems delineate load carrying capacity and rating pressure.

For example: The max pressure for a Euro 225/75R16C 121/120 is 575 kPa (~83 psi), where the LT225/75R16 LR E is 80 psi.

Officially the Euro system (delineated by the letter "C" immediately after the numbers) is supposed to use only the Load Index (eg. 121/120), but some retailers will "translate" this (I say "translate" because it isn't an exact conversion) into Load Range (eg. LR E) or the old Ply Rating system (eg. 10PR), while the LT metric system (delineated by the letters "LT" before the numbers) is officially supposed to be in Load Ranges with the Load Index as a bit of help in the conversion.

In reality, the tires are practically the same regardless of which system they are described in. Put a different way, the load carrying capacities and rating pressures are quite fuzzy and the net effect is that the tire itself will be built the same in both systems.

What about the wheel? Officially the government does not require max pressures and max loads to be stamped on the wheel. That's because wheels have never been a problem. Some wheels will have those items stamped, but like the tires it isn't as clear cut as it may appear.

Regarding the USTMA bulletin: This is more about Euro vans that come with C type tires and the potential for replacing those with LT type tires - rather than the other way around.

Update: Did a little more digging and even Michelin screwed this up. They list their LT225/75R16 LR E Agilis Cross Climate as having a max load of 2680# at 90 psi, which is NOT what their own table says (or what the Tire and Rim Yearbook says). Further, the table switches the single and dual loads. I have emailed them to point this out.

[switz]

Their table for my Truck Agilis LT265/70R17 E tire shows load of 2,910 at 80 psi. Right beside that number it states 3,195 pounds at 80psi. Which is correct?

For the Agilis LT 225/75R16 E tire, the table shows 2,470 pounds at 80psi and beside it shows 2,680 pounds at 90 psi. My target pressure was for a 2,500 pound load rating at 75 psi in the current tire. My heaviest loaded tire on the classic is 2,062 pounds per my scales so the new tire would still work.

I talked with Michelin yesterday at their support number and the rep was caught out with the table discrepancies and could not explain what a Load E tire now means in the Michelin tire world.

Fortunately, the XPS RIB is still 2,680 pounds at 80 psi.

[jcanavera]

Obviously there is a lack of clarity at this point and for me it’s a moot point since I bought new Defenders so all is well. With time I think this will all settle down as the Defender supply is extinguished and what we find out what Airstream settles on. In the mean time it will be another 6 years or so before I have to cross this bridge. Thanks for the follow up Capri! I know this will all get straightened out,

Jack

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by jcanavera

……. I know this will all get straightened out,

Jack

Don't be too sure of that. I just got a response from Michelin and the rep there said there was nothing wrong with the load tables published on their website. They completely overlooked the contradiction.

My experience is that the folks who man both the email and phones aren't very technical and would have trouble recognizing such a problem. I suspect it will take many DIFFERENT people pointing to the same issue for those folks to forward the problem to whoever maintains what is posted on their website. Only then will it get resolved.

My prediction is that it may be several years before that happens.

[switz]

I exchanged emails with Rick Papelin of SenDel wheels yesterday. The T03-66655 series wheels in either SM or BM finish are tested to 100 psi for approval but are engraved to support 94 psi. Thus my 82 psi for a 2,500 pound load rating using the Agilis 225/75R16E tires would work. The big question will be if the higher air pressure beats the stuffings out of the trailer. I currently run 75 psi as it is quicker than getting 73 psi that was spot on the load with the 2014 Michelins.

His wording is below:

"The T03 16” 6 lug and T03 16” 8 lug are the same mold. The 8 lug is tested and rated to 3580 lbs. @ 94 psi as that is the industry standard for E rated tires. The industry spec on the 16” 6 lug is 3200 lbs. @ 80 psi. So the mold is engraved to say 6/3200 8/3580 MAX psi 94 psi because of the industry spec. The controlled lab test inflated the tires to 100 psi to establish the approval for SAE J1204."

The chap continued, "also note that my T03 has been copied by several factories. My wheel would have the SD or Sendel name engraved on the back."

[Tireman9]

Does anyone actually have an Agilis 225/75R16? Can you post a picture of both the size ( "C" or "E" ) and what it says for Inflation and max load as molded on the tire? Federal regulations specify that those are the numbers that are supposed to be correct. DOT does not reference web pages.