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01-06-2018, 03:11 PM
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#41
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Moderator dude
1966 26' Overlander
Phoenix
, Arizona
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KK4YZ
It sure would be nice to have real data on tire failures in towing applications. I’ve heard so much bad news about Goodyear Marathons that I formed the opinion that these tires must suffer from a high level of mfg defects. That the Marathons were produced in China doesn’t help matters at all in my mind.
Am I wasting $$ doing this? Don’t know, but at least I’ll buy myself peace of mind so I can focus on having fun instead of worrying about the tires.
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Real data .... hmmm ... that has been attempted on this website (I am sure others) more than once. The issue has too many data points to simplify the answer.
Was it a road hazard failure?
How old were the tires?
How long had the tires been used?
How fast have the tires been going in use?
What was the inflation?
What was the max load of the trailer versus the capacity of the tire?
Most of the time not all of the data is available after an event. And I am sure the two tire guys have seen thousands of tires after the event with out much of the above data to understand what happened. Any yet they are trained. Ask one of us for data as in a survey on a website like this ... and ..... well the conclusion can be like looking at mud.
As far as wasting money!? If it gives you piece of mind it isn't a waste. However the drum beat of how bad a brand or model of tire gets rather old. Without some of the data above, sure any tire can get a bad rap. And as the tire guys have stated that trailer manufacturers (not just travel trailers) install a round black tire around a rim with two considerrations. (May be 3)
Will they hold air at least until the consumer gets it & is it cheap?
Does the load capacity specs on the side wall meet the total load of the trailer?
When in doubt ask the first question again.
For the owners that have spent well North of $50K to six figures on an RV, more money on bigger wheels and tires is a small percentage of the experience. Over kill is something that may limit down time or damage and repair to the RV.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
__________________
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4 DR Breezeway 410 4V, C-6, 2.80 - Streamless.
1966 Lincoln 4 door Convertible 462 4V 1971 Ford LTD Convertible 429 4V Phoenix ~ Yeah it's hot however it's a dry heat!
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01-07-2018, 06:38 PM
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#42
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Rivet Master
1969 25' Tradewind
Shasta Lake
, California
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,040
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Ok I'll jump in with my experience with ST tires .
While this is about Airstream trailers , ST tires are on all brands of trailers and have the same rate of failures across the board .
So in that light this is my story .
In 1999 we bought a new 17' Casita Freedom Deluxe , it came with 3 ST205/75Rx14" tires that are rated at 1860#@50 p.s.i. for a total load of 3720# on the ground. The axle rating is 3500#. When the trailer is loaded and on the road it weighed 3250# with 460# on the tongue, It weighed with 50# side to side.
So I did not use any Weight Distribution or sway control on this rig, so take 460# off the axle weight bringing it to 2790# divided by 2 = 1395 # for each tire . All this well within spec of the tires.
So on the first trip 2001 after stopping for gas and checking the tires I get back on the freeway and within a mile I feel a vibration come and go so I speed up and it starts again then stops so I figure its the road surface. So now I going 62 mph and glance it the mirror and notice the trailer is leaning to the right, Igheck the right mirror just in time to see the tread fly off into the next lane. Look an exit so off I go and change the tire.
On the net trip out on smooth pavement I start to feel a vibration so I exit and check the other original tire and find the tread has separated into a large bulge , on goes the spare .
Had to buy the first tire but warrantee covered the second.
When I got back home I decided to replace the ST tires with Sport Truck Tires , I found that a 245/60Rx15" had a load rating of 1860 # @ 44 psi and a speed rating of 120 MPH and was only 1/2" taller and 1 1/2" wider I mounted them on 15 x7" wheels.
I ran these tires on the '99 17' Casita from 2001 until we bought our 2004 17' Casita Liberty Deluxe (weighed the same) then ran them until 2008 when we got a 2001 13' Casita Patriot Deluxe and moved them to new wheels 15x6" . In 2012 one of the tires finally shucked it tread at 75 mph. So these 2 tires ran from 2001 to 2012 on 3 Casitas and still has 5/32" tread depth.
Needless to say I put P235/75x15 Michelins on our 1969 Tradewind and am well within spec
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01-07-2018, 07:32 PM
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#43
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Rivet Master
2014 25' FB International
2007 20' Safari SE
2005 19' Safari
Qualicum Beach
, British Columbia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,096
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Well I have only had one failure in 11 years of ST tires and it was my fault for hitting a pothole at speed hard enough to break the shock mount. ( also all the shotglasses in my collection) while touring New York state in 2008. But. I am a fanatic about tire pressures and speed, and when my four year old GYM'S get replaced it will be with the new ST from Goodyear.
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01-07-2018, 10:24 PM
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#44
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Ravenna
, Ohio
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KK4YZ
It sure would be nice to have real data on tire failures in towing applications.
snip
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I agree but the reality is that many folks choose to not bother to report failures to the agency that can actually accomplish something, that being NHTSA. It seems that at the time of a tire failure they only focus on fetting back on the road or are satisfied to just complain on a forum.
Many have not even bothered to record the full DOT of all their tires so they can provide a potenionally actionable information to NHTSA.
You may not know there is an investigation currently underway on Goodyear G159 (Class-A size) This doesn't mean they are defective, just that there is apparently enough information on failures to get the attention of NHTSA.
The available data (number of complaints on file) would indicate that there are almost no tire failures on trailers.
__________________
Retired tire engineer (50 years). Write a blog on RV Tire Safety Net. Give seminars for FMCA across the US. Tucson AZ in Mar 2024 is next.
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01-09-2018, 04:47 PM
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#45
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Santa Cruz
, California
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 165
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We've had a few failures in the past couple of years, two of Michelins and one of an off brand. One on an Airstream motorhome (sitting in the driveway, bang-hiss!) and others on other motorhomes. All three were internal steel cord failures leading to tread separation, two on Michelin truck and light truck tires, the other on an off brand. This had led to some discussions with local tire "experts." They call it "RV tire syndrome." Years ago, they had sidewall failures when people left them out in the California sun and "weather checking" developed. Now, they say a common failure is that the steel cords develop some rust and separate from the rubber in which they are embedded. This last failure, on 5 year old Michelin LTX tire that had been a spare for all its life and had almost no tread wear, was said to have been caused by that. They say this is the reason the spare must be rotated through the rest of the tires regularly.
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01-09-2018, 05:00 PM
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#46
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4 Rivet Member
2019 25' Flying Cloud
Greeneville
, Tennessee
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 436
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I went with 16" Sendel wheels and Michelin LTX, Load range E. So far, so good.
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01-09-2018, 07:21 PM
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#47
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Rivet Master
2020 28' Flying Cloud
2017 23' Flying Cloud
Hiawassee
, Georgia
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dljosephson
We've had a few failures in the past couple of years, two of Michelins and one of an off brand. One on an Airstream motorhome (sitting in the driveway, bang-hiss!) and others on other motorhomes. All three were internal steel cord failures leading to tread separation, two on Michelin truck and light truck tires, the other on an off brand. This had led to some discussions with local tire "experts." They call it "RV tire syndrome." Years ago, they had sidewall failures when people left them out in the California sun and "weather checking" developed. Now, they say a common failure is that the steel cords develop some rust and separate from the rubber in which they are embedded. This last failure, on 5 year old Michelin LTX tire that had been a spare for all its life and had almost no tread wear, was said to have been caused by that. They say this is the reason the spare must be rotated through the rest of the tires regularly.
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My understanding from others here and my local tire guy (whom I trust) is that tires “age out”, especially occasional use tires, like trailer tires. Supposedly lack of use, even with no sun exposure, is not good for the tires. The local guy here says trailer tires should be replaced every 4 years regardless of mileage or tread condition.
Maybe tireman or Capri racer can weigh in on this.
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01-10-2018, 10:34 AM
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#48
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Rivet Master
2019 27' International
2014 25' International
2006 23' Safari SE
Boulder City
, Nevada
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Eklund
I have come to the conclusion that ST tires only go bad when in use.
If you installed ST rated tires tires onto our tow vehicle, would they be derated?
My Airstream is of no value parked at a lot or at home. It is the tires that get me from A to B. Much like... "I do not live to support the Petroleum Industry", so do not buy gasoline.
Gasoline is to our Tow Vehicles, as Tires are to our Trailers. I want the best money can buy, at a reasonable price and feel that I can expect to get where I am going.
Air is the only thing in common, which varies due to elevation and the user has no choice. Tires, everyone has a choice. For better, or worse.
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******
I may have to do some 'Switz Research' to compare weights of a Loaded 25 foot Airstream International (Gross Trailer weight, add for Fresh water and approximate clothing, refrigerator, etc.) and a F350 4x4 Diesel, full tank and equipment. The idea is to compare the ST 15" tire capacity and compare it to the Tow Vehicle's capacity. (As a direct comparison of trailer/tow vehicle and ST tires.)
I am curious if the Trailer and Truck have similar weights, yet tires of very different capacities.
How do these ST tires carry the Trailer Load and how would these same tires, carry the Gross Vehicle Weight of even a F150, Tundra, Dodge half ton trucks.
Earlier it was thought I was thinking of using ST D Rated trailer tires on my truck. I was just thinking about comparing the trailer weight to the tow vehicle weight. Someone may understand this is just a mental exercise for comparisons.
__________________
Human Bean
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01-10-2018, 06:21 PM
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#49
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Ravenna
, Ohio
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,344
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Things to consider:
The weight of a tire is not directly related to the Load Capacity of a tire.
It is the air pressure that supports the load not the tire.
RE tire failures, I suggest you review THIS post.
ST type tires are specifically NOT approved for use on vehicles carrying people.
People need to confirm the actual load on each tire position as loads are almost never equally distributed side to side or axle to axle.
Tires need to be able to support at least 10% with 15% prefered more than the measured load. This allows for some of the load transfer due to cornering and side wind load
Yes, steel belted radials need to be operated to help work the moisture out of the tire structure asait is the moisture that can attack the steel/rubber interface.
Tires do "age-out" but this can range from 3 years to up to 10 yesrs Max, depending on location, application (trailer or motorized vehicle) and use history (load, inflation, speed and heat history)
You can learn more by reviewing my blog on RV Tire Safety.
__________________
Retired tire engineer (50 years). Write a blog on RV Tire Safety Net. Give seminars for FMCA across the US. Tucson AZ in Mar 2024 is next.
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02-15-2018, 09:06 AM
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#50
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4 Rivet Member
2017 30' International
Lincolnwood
, Illinois
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 312
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Me too !!! I wouldn't mind having a face to face with Ray as well.
Seems like good people to me as most that visit the forums seem to be.
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02-15-2018, 11:32 AM
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#51
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Rivet Master
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction
, Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,222
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Our 2014 31' Classic has a GVW of 10,000 pounds.
Airstream supplied GYM GYM ST225/75R15D tires which was their stock tire on every tailer that used 15" tires except the 2014 Eddie Bauer. The sidewall rating of that GYM tire is 2,540 pounds at 65 psi. The axles are rated 5,000 pounds. Two 15" GYM tires are rated 5.080 pounds. So that tire size on paper is legal.
Airstream relies on the fact that the real world tongue weight is always higher than published when the weight distribution hitch is attached. On our Classic the tongue weight with the original Lifeline batteries mounted on the "A" frame behind the propane tank was 1,375 pounds, so in theory the axles would be supporting 7,625 when parked. Divided by four, each tire would need to support 1,906.25 pounds. Looks like an adequate load margin.
Our real world camping ready load numbers after the battery change to a single 600 amp hour lithium battery under the sofa:
Classic Scale numbers
……1200……——1200
2034……2042—4076
1921…….2062—3983
Total weight——9259
Since the 2014 Eddie Bauer came with the 16" SenDel T03-66655T wheels and the 16" Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tires and Airstream also sold them at the entrance to the customer service center at Jackson Center, I elected to install this 16" tire and wheel combination on our Classic. These Michelin tires are sidewall rated 2,680 pounds which increased the safety load margin. We use 72/73 psi.
Our 2015 23D International Serenity came with 14" wheels and 14" GYM ST215/75R14C tires sidewall rated 1,870 pounds @ 50 psi. We replaced them with 15" SenDel T03-56545T wheels and 15" Michelin Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires sidewall rated 2,183 pounds @ 50 psi and had to be derated 10% to 1,985 pounds for trailer use. Once again we increased the load safety margin with Michelin tires on the 3,000 pound rated axles.
Our scale numbers fully loaded for camping with Hensley Arrow hitch installed:
Tongue………928
Front….1,280……1,246 - total front axle 2,526
Rear…..1,376……1,233 - total rear axle 2.609
Total Axles………5,135
Total Trailer….6,063
Our 2013 25FB International Serenity was also retrofitted with the 15" Michelins captioned above on the stock 15" wheels.
The conversation above shows that knowing real world numbers can be useful in selecting appropriate tires. While the GYM tires met the legal requirements, their service history that I read on the forums as well as personal GYM tire failures on my motorcycle trailers influenced the choice to Michelin tires along with no Michelin tire failures on any truck or car I have owned over 45 years.
YMMV
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC
TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell
2014 31' Classic w/ twin beds, 50 amp service, 1000 watt solar system, Centramatics, Tuson TPMS, 12" disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
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02-16-2018, 09:09 AM
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#52
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Ravenna
, Ohio
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,344
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Weight margin
Many do not realize that RVIA standards now call for a minimum of 110% of tire load capacity over the GAWR.
I have a new blog post being published today on trailer tire selection that covers this new regulation.
__________________
Retired tire engineer (50 years). Write a blog on RV Tire Safety Net. Give seminars for FMCA across the US. Tucson AZ in Mar 2024 is next.
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02-17-2018, 01:58 AM
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#53
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Rivet Master
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction
, Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,222
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That 110 percent rule on a Classic's 5,000 pound axles would make even the 16" Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tires inadequate with their sidewall rating of 2,680 pounds at 80 psi per the 16" LT tire Load E table below:
80psi 2,680 (E)
75psi 2,560
70psi 2,440
65psi 2,335 (D)
60psi 2,190
55psi 2,060
50psi 1,940 (C)
45psi 1,790
Perhaps that new 110% rule is why they are not the standard tire on the recent Classics.
Our Classic Scale numbers
……1200……——1200
2034……2042—4076
1921…….2062—3983
Total weight——9259
Since the heaviest loaded tire is carrying 2,062 pounds when the trailer is fully loaded for camping, we have about a 30% load margin at 80 psi. We run 72/73 psi so the load margin is just over 21%.
The 31.2" diameter of the Michelin 17" LT265/70/R17E tires used on my 2012 Ram 2500HD Cummins would be too large for the Airstream wheel well. The 16" Michelins captioned above have a diameter of 29.2".
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC
TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell
2014 31' Classic w/ twin beds, 50 amp service, 1000 watt solar system, Centramatics, Tuson TPMS, 12" disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
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02-17-2018, 03:03 AM
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#54
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3 Rivet Member
2016 23' International
1991 29' Excella
Chesapeake
, Virginia
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 100
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I just completed a 1400 mile adventure on my new LTX Defenders vs my proven LTX
A/S tires for the Crewmax.
1.The ride in tow vehicle was absolutely smooth as creamed corn.
2. Harmonic rocking of airstream was almost non existent. (This is indicated by my sight line of front and rear marker lights).
I believe the slightly stiffer sidewall acomplished this.
So I’m now 50% closer to the ultimate Airstream smooth tow rig.
In May I’m having JC upgrade my 23 fb to 15 inch LTX defenders.
I can’t wait!
Plus the new Toyota headlights gave my 2007 better than new performance.
Tom
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