No Michelin Defender LTX in 16"?

[No.15]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

While I have no personal experience running the R238, a review of the spec sheet leads me to believe it should be a good tire for heavy trailer use. Just be sure to confirm the load chart vs your measured actual tire loads to be sure you would be running NO MORE than 90% with 85 or even 80% of tire capacity preferred based on your cold inflation pressure setting.


Belt package looks pretty impressive when compared to the normal two-layer steel belt in most ST type tires.


Depending on the size, be sure you pay attention to the MAX recommended speed as there are 68, 75 and 87 mph ratings depending on size & Load Range.

Thanks tireman for the good info.

Just to avoid any confusion some may have, Bridgestone lists the specs for the 16 inch tire on the consumer site https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tire/duravis-r238

My trailer came from Airstream with the LTX tires so if I am reading it right these would be a direct replacement size/spec wise. That's good because I can get them at Costco with no hassle from them

[ROBERT CROSS]

Boy, am I glad I never drank the Kool-aid & swallowed the 16" pill. 😂

Bob
🇺🇸

[No.15]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Boy, am I glad I never drank the Kool-aid & swallowed the 16" pill. 😂

Bob
🇺🇸

Bob
Don't quite get your meaning. My Airstream came from the factory with 16" tires as far as I know there was no other option on my model. No KoolAid or pills needed.

[ROBERT CROSS]

[QUOTE=No.15;2248175]Bob
Don't quite get your meaning. My Airstream came from the factory with 16" tires as far as I know there was no other option on my model. No KoolAid or pills needed.

Sorry I was not clear enough for you...our AS came with 15" wheels, it still has 15" wheels, I did not jump on the 16" LT bandwagon several years ago, just to replace the GYM's.

Bob
🇺🇸

[No.15]

[QUOTE=ROBERT CROSS;2248203]

Originally Posted by No.15

Bob
Don't quite get your meaning. My Airstream came from the factory with 16" tires as far as I know there was no other option on my model. No KoolAid or pills needed.

Sorry I was not clear enough for you...our AS came with 15" wheels, it still has 15" wheels, I did not jump on the 16" LT bandwagon several years ago, just to replace the GYM's.

Bob
🇺🇸

Ahh I see. There are a few threads I am sure that talk about 15" tires. Might be better if you posted about 15" tires in those threads. GY does not make an endurance in the correct Airstream factory 16" size AFAIK

[ROBERT CROSS]

Oh my...16" replies only, my bad.

Bob
🇺🇸

[thewarden]

I am sure that there are stocks of Defender tires out there, you just have to call around. Just today I was actually able to purchase a single LTX MS2 for use as a spare as I have those on my TT. When I asked about Defenders, they had several sets of those still in stock as well.

[switz]

There are new models (basically name changes in my opinion) of 16" Michelin LT tires that will work on my 16" SenDel wheels. Note that the Eddie Bauer models along with the later variations with different names for the tail gate version came with the 16" Michelins as did the 2015 to 2017 Classics.

I think Airstream now just uses the new 15" GYE tires on all models.

I personally will never use any GY tires again (had too many issues with the GYM ST tires failing on motorcycle trailers). I use(d) the 15" MichelinLTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires on both the previous 2013 25FB International Serenity and our current 2015 23D International Serenity and our 2014 Classic was changed to the 16" Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tires. I put the Michelin tires on after got it off the dealer's lot for the 25FB and Classic. Put the Michelins on the 23D on the dealer lot.

Even the Indianapolis 500 cars have gone back to Firestone dropping GY.

[rbs]

Originally Posted by jcanavera

2,470 at 80 psi according to the Michelin inflation tables for the LT 225 75 R 16E. To get the same capacity as the same size Defenders, you have to raise the pressure to 90 psi or consider purchasing the euro model of the Agilis. The euro model of the same size is 3,085 at 80 psi.

Jack

Getting ready to replace the tires on our Airstream, and cannot find any information concerning the Agilis euro model anywhere, would someone direct me to info on the Agilis euro tire? Leaning towards the Michelin XPS rib tires, but will be Michelin regardless of which model.

[PKI]

Originally Posted by rbs

Getting ready to replace the tires on our Airstream, and cannot find any information concerning the Agilis euro model anywhere, would someone direct me to info on the Agilis euro tire? Leaning towards the Michelin XPS rib tires, but will be Michelin regardless of which model.

Try - https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...SABEgLhw_D_BwE. Pat

[waninae39]

the new Michelin 225/75r16 tires and 16" wheels are on our As22FB. they fit well.

driving it now with 55 psi cold for 3 weeks with no issues

16" is easier to find than 15" as very few trucks use 15' any more

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by waninae39

the new Michelin 225/75r16 tires and 16" wheels are on our As22FB. they fit well.

driving it now with 55 psi cold for 3 weeks with no issues

16" is easier to find than 15" as very few trucks use 15' any more

Since you didn't bother to provide all the tire info I am wondering if your tires are LT225/75R16 LR-D. 55 psi is lower that the tire allows (65) or if LR-C are 5 psi above the recommended cold nflation.

[waninae39]

16" Michelin LT225/75R16 load range E LTX M/S2

load index 115 ie 2680 max load
as our as weighs less that 4500 lbs, these tires are fine

more details here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_code

[jcanavera]

I'm resurrecting this old thread because I'm looking at replacing my Defenders next year. I was planning on going with an Agilis 115/R load rated, but remembered that to keep my 2680 weight rating that I'd have to run 90 psi. Problem is in checking my T03 Sendel 16" wheels that I bought from Tredit they are only rated for 80 psi max.

I called Michelin asking them for an inflation chart to verify what the load capacity of the tire is as you reduce pressure from maximum. They won't even help you if you are telling them you are putting them on a trailer. So since my van uses the same size tires, I said they were for my van and I'd like to lower the pressure to soften the ride when I'm not loaded. They told me use the sticker on my car door and they don't have an inflation chart. I find that hard to believe. So no answers there.

I could go to the next higher level Agilis which has the directional tread design, 3195 lg load capacity at 80 psi. Cost $40 more than the standard tread Cross Climate. Problem solved with extra reserve load capacity.

Called Airstream they they told me they are using Cross Climate 2 models which has according to them the directional tread design. So they say they are putting the 90 psi sticker on the trailer. I tell the customer service guy that that makes no sense. Cross Climate 2 is a passenger tire.

So I'm curious as to what tires you are replacing your Definders with if you have the T03 16" wheels? The Tredit wheel guys said to take the wheel off and check the back for a stamped max tire pressure. If it's 80 psi like Tredit quotes for the current T03 Sendel model, a 90 PSI pressure will exceed the wheel ratings. Airstream says they have no data to give us on the Sendel wheels they are using. This is scary.

Jack

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by vintageracer

How many of you guys have EVER had a BAD new or old design Michelin tire?

Never for the TV...don't use 'em on the AS.

Bob
🇺🇸

[jcanavera]

What's even more concerning is that if you have bought a new Classic trailer with Michelin tires, with the 90 PSI inflation sticker, and my information from Tredit is correct that the 80 PSI limits are still there on the Sendel T03 wheels, the air pressure in those tires may have exceeded or currently exceeds the limits for those rims if Airstream initially fills those tires.

I already am aware of a confirmation in writing from the Airstream Service Center to a friend for installation of new axles, Sendel T03 wheels and new Michelin Agilis tires on his Flying Cloud. The confirmation in writing states that they are going to inflate the tires to 90 PSI.

My plan tomorrow is to call Sendel and verify if the T03 wheels have a 80 PSI pressure limit.

My conversation with Airstream Customer Service today revealed they have no documentation regarding pressure limits on the T03 wheels. The only way you will know is to pull a wheel off and look on the back side of the wheel. The max pressure limit should be stamped on the back of the wheel somewhere. If it says 80 and you are running 90, you need to make some changes.

Obviously if you drop below 90 the weight capacity of those tires will change. For those who run 80 or below, no sweat assuming the weight of your Classic doesn't require 90 PSI and the 2680 weight capacity per tire. Unfortunately Michelin today in my call to them told me there was no published weight chart for that tire. Note that based on our tire professionals who frequent the forum your tires need a minimum of 10% unload weight capacity. The optimum is 20%

Jack

[sfranklin]

Great timing...I started asking similar questions here, but clearly, you've taken it much further.

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f43...-249242-4.html

I was planning on asking the folks at the factory when I'm out there and taking a closer look as to what they are installing. If you are correct, something just doesn't add up. A 115 rated tire carrying 2680lbs at 90psi on a rim that may only be rated for 80psi? My understanding is that any reduction in tire pressure lowers the carrying capacity, my guess would be to around 2400lbs. This would make the only viable LT brand tire (that has been used by RV manufacturers) on a 16" rim that per Tireman and CapriRacer's posts (which I put a lot of stock in) is the 120 rated Agilis:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

There are other brands in an exact 16" size and spec, but I've either never heard of them or don't know of any RV manufacturers that are using them:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

The thing is, that some of these tires pressures range from 83psi to 90psi as well. The 120 rated Agilis is 83psi, and even if you put say 78psi cold and get around 2980 lbs of carrying capacity, your margin is still within range at 10,132lbs. If you used the 115 tire and had to reduce pressure to 80 based on rim limitation, many folks could be woefully at or close to the edge. That 115 tire at 10psi lower than what's on the tire would place carrying capacity at about 2450ish or 9800lbs@85% capacity. Some may eek by while other could exceed this.

On that other thread Action brought up a great point, anything you do as a average per tire is just that. Without actually weighing the trailer, one has no real idea how much is sitting on one tire due to load, configuration, etc. So say you have a fridge over one axle, it's fully loaded, that one tire closest could be carrying more weight and that 115 tire could be dancing on the razor's edge.

I had ZERO idea this was going to turn into such a lengthy process. All I wanted to do was keep my capacity at or below 75% the rated tire carrying load, and a tire equal or greater in capacity than the 15" ST tires since I am in the market for new tires, I figured now would be the time to pay closer attention now that my rig may clock in around 8300lbs wet. I can't do that with the 115 rated Agilis, I can do it with the 120 rated Agilis but I too may have to not fill the tire to 83psi AND it's a directional tire with some funky looking tread. The Endurance and Maxxis 15" ST tires I can still use and still have at or below 75% of the rated capacity and with those or the 120 Agilis, even if one tire has a few hundred more lbs, I'd still be ok, but I am not sure I would with the 115 rated Agilis, even if I were to fill them to 90psi and the full 2680 capacity. Then there is the cost...all 4 rims and the spare rim would need to be changed- not a small cost, but not worth it to get worse percentage of capacity than the current ST tires and I just don't know about that Agilis 120 with it's funky tread pattern and clearly not the tire Airstream appears to be using.

[CapriRacer]

Jack Canavera,

I'm going to try to answer the questions you've been asking - and where I don't have answers, some insight into things.

I have not found any US federal regulations regarding wheels. They seem to be unregulated - which I interpret to mean that wheels have not been a large enough problem to require regulations.

That means that you may not find markings on some wheels for max load or max inflation pressure.

Further, my digging around uncovered that wheel manufacturers have tests for load, but not inflation pressure. I interpret that to mean that inflation pressure has little effect on the stresses in a wheel compared to the load. So I think going from 80 psi to 90 psi is not a big issue - not worth worrying about. That also means that even if a wheel is marked with a max inflation pressure, I don't think that is anything close to real limitation - sort of a gray area.

Now regarding your tire questions: The tires you are talking about are LT225/75R16 Load Range E Michelin Agillis CrossClimate. These built to TRA (The Tire and Rim Association = US based) standards - and the TRA load table applies - which has the max load occur at 80 psi!

HOWEVER, there is a provision in TRA for LT tires to be inflated up to 10 psi over the pressure where the max load occurs. I know of no one who shows this in their specs - with this one exception.

Why did Michelin do this? I just don't know, but it has created confusion.

So to answer your question, the load carrying capacity of a Michelin Agillis CrossClimate LT225/75R16 LR E at 80 psi is 2680#. However, it is marked with a max pressure of 90 psi!

[sfranklin]

CR-

Thanks for posting this info! If we follow the 85% of capacity you mentioned in the other thread, and though it is better news that max load on those tires is 80psi, for many this may still be a good tire option, but I question how Airstream is justifying larger 10k GVWR trailers with a 10,700 tire set capacity, if one follows the 85% discussed, that would place those customers at about 9100lbs, putting those folks that are near or at the NCC of those trailers at or beyond 93% of capacity with only a 7% reserve, and of that, depending on what Action talked about, one or two tires could be carrying more of a load than others and my thought is that 7% could nearly evaporate depending on how much extra that 1 or 2 tires might be picking up.

It just seems to me if someone pushing more than 8,000 lbs, should they be considering the 120 rated Michelin Agillis CrossClimate E rated tire? Using that tire would give a wider margin, but I am concerned about a directional tire. Should I be?

Honestly, the 2830 capacity at 80 psi of the ST rated E tires, just seems like so much less hassle.

[jcanavera]

CR, thanks for your perspective. I sort of remember during the Marathon days I may have read that Goodyear was also stating that you could inflate those Marathons about 10 PSI over max inflation labels. All in all it's confusing both to customers and even the RV industry itself. According to Airstream there are regulations that require the label on the side of the trailer that lists vehicle and tire info that the tire pressure info must match the info that is stamped onto the sidewall of the tire itself. I'm assuming a liability factor is also in place where Airstream apparently at build time or if they are putting tires on their trailers is filling to those specs. My contact with Michelin customer support was equally puzzling since they would not entertain any conversation regarding the load a tire could support at reduced pressures. All they would state to me is follow the pressure recommendations as posted on your vehicle. Airstream conversely is saying the sticker is not a pressure recommendation, but a statement of the maximum inflation pressure for that tire as required by law.

So from a technical aspect if 80 PSI gives you the 2680 weight capacity on the CrossClimate, putting 90 PSI in is essentially upping that capacity, although Michelin isn't publishing that correct? Taking it one step further Michelin also sells another CrossClimate with more than 400 lbs additional carrying capacity with its published max inflation of 80 psi. Interestingly enough it is 2 lbs lighter per tire than the CrossClimates now being installed by Airstream. That tire has the rotational tread design which requires attention to proper mounting of the tire in conjunction with the tread rotation. To me if they are publishing documentation calling for 90 psi for the 2680 weight support, it would be some type of liability statement that is telling the customer that they would potentially deny warranty claims on a tire at 80 psi on the grounds of overloading. The fact they are publishing no PSI chart to the public seems a little shady to me.

Jack