Factory tires

[Action]

Originally Posted by 2012FB

The approval given to Airstream by Michelin to utilize Michelin LT tires on an Airstream Travel Trailer would be on a corporate level and not something one of the marketing folks would be directly involved with or aware of. The marketing information given is the "typical" generic response, not with respect to the approved application for an Airstream TT. As noted in prior posts Michelin would most certainly provide a warranty on OEM-installed tires.

Using the word approval like permission was asked and granted. I get that is what you are making up based on the evidence of tires that are on the vehicle. However, I would disagree with that opinion. I would suggest that Airstream is making the decision without asking Michelin anything. In fact IF Airstream makes the ask (but why would they) Michelins reply would be the same as received from gypsdad. Michelin does NOT make ST tires and are NOT recommended for trailer applications.

And that would be true for ANY tire builder. The tire is built to a standard. The tire manufacturers will sell tires to OE manufacturers not knowing the exact application. In fact there is a trail of bad choices made by OE vehicle manufacturers in installing tires on vehicles. Google Firestone and Explorer. That tire was not sufficient in load capacity.

Airstream is doing this because of several things:
Michelin has a very good reputation.
Michelin has stepped to the plate to resolve problems
Michelin has a very wide and large distribution across the country for service
New Airstream buyer have demanded the product
The LT tire if pressures are changed to fit the load can do the job

The down side is the cost may be more and is best absorbed on higher end units with lower volume builds. The lower volume means the exposure is less in case Airstream designers get it wrong.

Action

[civeng99]

Michelin tires are a religion. We’ve run almost everything you can think of on the fleet side (class 7/8 heavy trucks) and we come back to Goodyear and Firestone in the end. Good value. Decent product but the dealer network is key for us. 90% of the world runs on non-Michelin tires. Can’t go wrong with Goodyears. And gasp good retreads. Fight amongst yourselves…

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Not sure what Grand Design says about their trailers and tires is relevant to this discussion.

The ST235/85R16 size you quoted is not what AS puts on a Classic, so that's not relevant. GY does not make a 225/75R16 Endurance tire. Must be a reason...maybe because AS won't buy one for a Classic?

https://www.goodyear.com/en-US/tires...ce/sizes-specs

On a 33' Classic, Airstream is installing Michelin LT 225/75R16 tires that can only be one of the following: Agilis CrossClimates @ 225/75R16C 121/120R @ either 3197 lbs. (121) or 3086 lbs. (120R). Either one of those has plenty of capacity for a 33' at 8375 lbs. base or 10k GVWR for both the 121 or the 120R.

https://www.airstream.com/travel-tra...lans=33fb-twin

My PB 28' is 6600 lbs. base and 7600 lbs. GVWR. The 225/75R15 GY Endurance OEM tires are rated at 2830 lbs. each. Again, using your logic of "more capacity is better", why in the world would I not want 1468 lbs. more capacity across 4 tires than my current tires by going with the Michelin Agilis in a 225/75R16? This also being well above my factory AS spec sticker as well?

I still can't get past your premise of AS selling Classics with Michelin LT tires somehow without a manufacturers warranty (despite the Michelin OEM Warranty language above that you ignored), without AS or Michelin somehow knowing this is "wrong", or because some random Discount Tire employee or a guy named "Jim" told you not to, or because an alleged call to Michelin was made at some time to some employee that is in direct contravention to their written warranty on their own site.

Do you really believe that USDOT, NHTSA or the CPSC is going to let AS sell hundreds of trailers and thousands of tires to be put out on the road if they were in fact not recommended or unsafe for that intended application? Do you know how the concepts of product liability and stream of commerce apply in a lawsuit?

If Michelin did not "recommend" this use, wouldn't they simply not sell the tires to AS? Do you think AS has employees pose as retail customers and roll into Costco, DT or other tire shops to secretly buy these tires and then smuggle them to JC for a clandestine install?

Nobody is upset, but perhaps just bewildered by the bizarre assumptions that you are making.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by civeng99

Michelin tires are a religion. We’ve run almost everything you can think of on the fleet side (class 7/8 heavy trucks) and we come back to Goodyear and Firestone in the end. Good value. Decent product but the dealer network is key for us. 90% of the world runs on non-Michelin tires. Can’t go wrong with Goodyears. And gasp good retreads. Fight amongst yourselves…

Right. 90% of travel trailers (or more) are SOB trailers and not Airstreams. Airstream fans are a part of a religion.

Guess we should all sell our AS trailers because the SOB trailers are good enough, and we can also get out from underneath the “Airstream religion” that plagues us.

[civeng99]

Lol. One difference. You can demonstrate that an airstream is a superior product to say a $15k sob. . All I’ve seen here is “I like Michelin tires. You disagree so you’re wrong.”

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by civeng99

Lol. One difference. You can demonstrate that an airstream is a superior product to say a $15k sob. . All I’ve seen here is “I like Michelin tires. You disagree so you’re wrong.”

No, no difference at all. You should read more carefully.

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

I have used almost every brand of tire in all sorts of applications - from trailers, to travel trailers, to dump trailers, motorcycles, off road, on road, cars made to race and Jeeps made to crawl.

I have had over 30 sets of Michelins on different applications, including cars on the track at 150 mph+. While I have had various issues with Pirellis, Coopers, Bridgestones, Goodyears, Hoosiers, Contis, Dunlops, Firestones and BF Goodrich tires, I literally have never had a problem with a Michelin tire (other than cost ).

Maybe my experience is an anomaly, but I don't think so. Many of the tires above are great tires but they have not given me the same confidence across the board as have Michelins.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

@Tireman9-

Don’t the stickers only show the tires that are OEM on the trailer, size, dry weight, max cargo weight and max tire pressure for those tires? No the sticker is suppose to show GAWR, Tire Type, Size LR and the inflation necessary to support the GAWR as provided by the RV Mfg Co(t9)

If that sticker under the DOT, FVMSS, etc. regs shows a specific tire, does that mean in your opinion that no other tire type or size can “legally” be put on that trailer or vehicle? No. I never said that(T9)

So if a Classic shows an LT, then……?

Seems kind of crazy as lots of people put different size tires, etc. on cars and trucks all the time.

The label only applies to the OE company and the tire they are specifying. Following retail owners can change the tires if they wish. If they are smart the new tires will have equal or better load capacity than the OE tires selected by the RV MFG because many times they select low cost tires that only meet the minimum load capacity standards.

[WellSaid11]

That’s exactly what I thought, and you have confirmed what many on this thread (and others) thought as well.

It is makes perfect sense that the label is not saying “here is all you can use…”

Thank you for your insight based upon 40 years of being a tire engineer and being in the business.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Action

Using the word approval like permission was asked and granted. I get that is what you are making up based on the evidence of tires that are on the vehicle. However, I would disagree with that opinion. I would suggest that Airstream is making the decision without asking Michelin anything. In fact IF Airstream makes the ask (but why would they) Michelins reply would be the same as received from gypsdad. Michelin does NOT make ST tires and are NOT recommended for trailer applications.

And that would be true for ANY tire builder. The tire is built to a standard. The tire manufacturers will sell tires to OE manufacturers not knowing the exact application. In fact there is a trail of bad choices made by OE vehicle manufacturers in installing tires on vehicles. Google Firestone and Explorer. That tire was not sufficient in load capacity.

Airstream is doing this because of several things:
Michelin has a very good reputation.
Michelin has stepped to the plate to resolve problems
Michelin has a very wide and large distribution across the country for service
New Airstream buyer have demanded the product
The LT tire if pressures are changed to fit the load can do the job

The down side is the cost may be more and is best absorbed on higher end units with lower volume builds. The lower volume means the exposure is less in case Airstream designers get it wrong.

Action

Agree; that is very likely what happened; Michelin has their marching orders, and Airstream made the decision on their own; otherwise, you likely would also see Michelin "advertising" this application pointing to Airstream; others perhaps, to promote their LT tires being used as in an ST application.

When Michelin management has a position regarding their products, "marketing" would "know" what that position is; thats their job! My experience, successful companies usually always bring "marketing" into their corp. philosophy...silly to think Michelin is any different.

[Action]

^^^^
To expand on that there may be liability that prevents the marketing department from doing just that.

I think there is a legal definition of what is a P, LT or ST tire. Or at least I assume that and know that I am NOT a tire expert. Those designations based on my understanding are from the Tire and Rim Association. (This may be that is incorrect too) If you manufacture a tire to a LT design, that is a specific application. That application does not include mounting on a rim that is being used on a trailer. There is a separate designation for that use called ST.

So it may be OK for an end user (Consumer or OE manufacturer) to make a decision as to use or application, it is NOT OK for the tire manufacturer to make a decision to that their LT tire is good for any application.

The better question might be why doesn't Michelin manufacture a ST tire. Again the guess on my part is that market segment is too small. Or logistics are too great. And maybe at a future point. Goodyear seems to have a good lock on the trailer tire market. Especially on mid-to-low priced (and weight) trailers.

Action

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Ephraim

As requested. . .

Attachment 418101

Thanks. That kind of settles the question of LT type on RV Trailers. While I can't check the specs on the suspension components, I will assume the tires, wheels, axles etc are all capable of supporting the stated GAWR.


In this case the RV company clearly approves the use of LT type tire on this RV.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Action

Using the word approval like permission was asked and granted. I get that is what you are making up based on the evidence of tires that are on the vehicle. However, I would disagree with that opinion. I would suggest that Airstream is making the decision without asking Michelin anything. In fact IF Airstream makes the ask (but why would they) Michelins reply would be the same as received from gypsdad. Michelin does NOT make ST tires and are NOT recommended for trailer applications.

And that would be true for ANY tire builder. The tire is built to a standard. The tire manufacturers will sell tires to OE manufacturers not knowing the exact application. In fact there is a trail of bad choices made by OE vehicle manufacturers in installing tires on vehicles. Google Firestone and Explorer. That tire was not sufficient in load capacity.

Airstream is doing this because of several things:
Michelin has a very good reputation.
Michelin has stepped to the plate to resolve problems
Michelin has a very wide and large distribution across the country for service
New Airstream buyer have demanded the product
The LT tire if pressures are changed to fit the load can do the job

The down side is the cost may be more and is best absorbed on higher end units with lower volume builds. The lower volume means the exposure is less in case Airstream designers get it wrong.

Action

"tire was not sufficient in load capacity." and per Fed Regulations it is the vehicle manufacturer's responsibility to select and provide tires capable of supporting the load. I believe in the Explorer case, the tires were capable as long as the vehicle owner always maintained inflation to at least 26 psi and the vehicle was never loaded with more than 5 people weighing 150# each. Isn't it strange that the same identical tire was used by Toyota and there were no reports of roll-over or fatalities on those vehicles I heard about?

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Action

^^^^
To expand on that there may be liability that prevents the marketing department from doing just that.

I think there is a legal definition of what is a P, LT or ST tire. (Yes there is, in Tire & Rim Data books (T9 )Or at least I assume that and know that I am NOT a tire expert. Those designations based on my understanding are from the Tire and Rim Association.(Yes (T9) (This may be that is incorrect too) If you manufacture a tire to a LT design, that is a specific application.

( incorrect (T9)That application does not include mounting on a rim that is being used on a trailer. There is a separate designation for that use called ST. ("ST" is a tire type T9)


So it may be OK for an end user (Consumer or OE manufacturer) to make a decision as to use or application, it is NOT OK for the tire manufacturer to make a decision to that their LT tire is good for any application.

The better question might be why doesn't Michelin manufacture a ST tire. Again the guess on my part is that market segment is too small. Or logistics are too great. And maybe at a future point. Goodyear seems to have a good lock on the trailer tire market. Especially on mid-to-low priced (and weight) trailers.

Action

Different type tires have different design and performance standards they are suppose to meet. For P type there are requirements to adjust the load capacity figures if the P tire tire is to be used on a "Multi-Purpose" vehicle (think SUV or truck) or used on a trailer. I am not aware of any similar statement in the tech books for either ST or LT type tires.
ST & LT type tires have different load capacities and dimensions and rim fitment standards. As long as these standards are follower there is no "adjustment" needed.

From the tire standpoint, the wheel is to meet certain dimensional standards on the air chamber side. I do not find any statements on wheel application as it relates to the type tire. From a "fitment" standpoint a "5.5x15 J" for example is a designation of certain dimensions and could be used on a P or LT or even an ST type tire as long as the tire was "approved" in the data book to fit that rim profile.


I am not aware of any statement in T&RA data book that a certain type tire is only to be used on a certain vehicle. There are other restrictions that provide guidance for proper application or use of a tire. I am not aware of any LT type tires being applied to passenger cars but I am also not aware of any stated prohibition against such an application.

If we look for a moment at most 19.5" & 22.5" tires as found on Class-A RVs. Those tires are for all intents and purposed identical to the tires used on "Over the highway" trucks. The dimensions and strength standards in T&RA data books make no mention of RV usage so does that mean there are no 19.5 or 22.5" tires acceptable for Class-A RV use?

[Action]

I think vehicle manufacturers have gotten the tire question wrong on a number of situations.

In addition, it is my opinion that a significant number of consumers do not get the inflation thing. And I don't mean the users here that argue about the amount of pressure. It is the consumer that looks at a tire maybe once a quarter (or never even considers a tire has an amount of air in it) and sees a non-flat tire. Mmmm looks good to me! Gotta go now Ta Ta.


Action

[Ephraim]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Thanks. That kind of settles the question of LT type on RV Trailers. While I can't check the specs on the suspension components, I will assume the tires, wheels, axles etc are all capable of supporting the stated GAWR.


In this case the RV company clearly approves the use of LT type tire on this RV.

This is off of a 2019 Classic 30' RBQ. the literature that comes with the trailer shows two Dexter #11 Axles configured with 12" hubs, electric brakes and 5000# GAWR (each).

The trailer was advertised as 7959# empty and a GVWR of 10000#. We like to travel with a full fresh water tank and since that weighs in at > 500#, I routinely come close to the 10000# rating. I also have to watch the GVWR of the truck. when loaded for bear (canoe on truck, to e-bikes on fiamma style bike rack, and a weeks worth of food/clothes + toys) I have to hit the scales and have to occasionally dump some water from the tank to keep under weight. I'm sure if I didn't everything would be fine, but the last thing I need is to be pulled over, weighed, and ticketed.

To note on air pressure, lots of opinions out there. The information wants a full 80psi on the tires. I have had people recommend air pressures as low as 50psi and everything in between. I experimented for a while, but when I pulled in a gas station and saw the tires offset by over 3" due to the turn, I went back to 80psi. In 3.5 years, I've popped only 3 rivets.

I have no idea how the 33' version of the classic stays within the weight ranges.

[Action]

Originally Posted by Ephraim

I have no idea how the 33' version of the classic stays within the weight ranges.

Does it use a 3rd axle?

Your 30' with two axles is interesting.

Action

[WellSaid11]

Again, to think that Michelin is somehow aware of this application on a Classic as OEM and not on board is just simply unrealistic. Likewise, to think AS is unaware of it is also as unrealistic.

As was stated repeatedly, there is nothing that anyone has pointed to that says a “ST” tire is the only type that can be put on a travel trailer.

Sigh.

[Ephraim]

Originally Posted by Action

Does it use a 3rd axle?

Nope. Still two axles. And every three axle Airstream I've seen always has lower ratings on the axles.

I suppose if you subtract the tongue weight from the trailer GVWR that makes the trailer weight fall within the allotted GVWR. I'm not sure how often the authorities actually make you unhitch when they weigh you. (I've not actually ever been weighed like that, but I'm sure the one time I'm overweight, they'll get me).

[LNBright]

Originally Posted by DCPAS

The premise of the original post was that the OEM Goodyear Endurance tires were horrible and that it was wise to swap out immediately for LT tires. In the opinion of many here including me, the Goodyears are quality tires and there is no need to do so.

Slight correction: the OEM Goodyear Marathon tires were the ones that were wise to swap out. Thankfully, Marathons are now history.

[Yes, I too got rid of Marathons, and put Endurances on...]

[CapriRacer]

I think this discussion is missing a point:

If you were to ask any tire manufacturer if they have a tire suitable for travel trailers, they would say "No!" unless they produce an ST tire.

If you ask any tire manufacturer if the tires that came OE on a new travel trailer are covered by a warranty, they would say "Yes!", because they warrant tires in a proper application.

Another way to look at this is that ANY P type tire or ANY LT type tire CAN be used on a travel trailer so long as it is done properly - which means adhering to all the regulations and restrictions, particularly when it comes to load carrying capacity.

What it does NOT mean is that a P205/75R15 or an LT205/75R15 can be blindly substituted for an ST205/75R15.

[WellSaid11]

Yes, I agree with (almost) all of that and I think most others do as well.

Yet some believe that Michelin would not honor a warranty on the OEM Classic application. Some also believe that because Michelin does not make an ST tire that you can never put an LT Michelin on an Airstream. Still others believe that Michelin is unaware that their tires are on a Classic OEM or they do know and do not approve of this.

I don’t think anyone would swap a like size P or LT tire for the same ST without researching what is best.

However, to say Michelin would state that “they don’t make a tire suitable for a travel trailer because we don’t make a ST tire” makes no sense in light of the OEM Classic application as has been noted many times.