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Old 06-18-2022, 11:14 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by richard5933 View Post
Guess the question I have is when push comes to shove and there is a warranty claim for a Michelin installed on an Airstream as OEM, who covers it? Michelin or Airstream?

So far all we know is that some are reporting Airstream installs Michelin on some trailers. The details of how this works and why it's done have not been mentioned, but seem pretty important to me.
Agree!
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Old 06-18-2022, 11:32 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by WellSaid11 View Post
Yep.




Although Airstream and Michelin don't do everything "right" all the time, "acceptable" means it will work for the the application: safety, performance and longevity. Airstream "experts" - in this case - MICHELIN (Classics), Airstream (Classics), Vinnie @ Northbay and many others put Michelin LT tires on and I will do the same.

I want a 16" wheel because I like the appearance of different wheels and the height, have a 3" lift kit already and many places we go in the West that are BLM lands have awful roads, and that height and tire type is an advantage.

But I guess by your logic if I had bought a Classic from AS and it had Michelin Agilis or other Michelin LT tires on it since they are only "acceptable" at best and apparently downright dangerous at worst - I should immediately buy an ST tire instead like a GY Endurance? If GY and others only make them in 15" wheels I should scrap those 16" inch wheels and get the 15"?

That makes a lot of sense.

Better yet, here is Michelin's OEM Warranty link direct from them:

https://dgaddcosprod.blob.core.windo...l-warranty.pdf

"As the original purchaser of a vehicle equipped with MICHELIN® passenger or light truck tires, you are covered by all the benefits and conditions (subject to the maintenance recommendations and safety warnings) contained in this booklet."

You keep saying things like "My point is, Michelin "does not" recommend nor endorse use on TT's....."



Who exactly told you this and when? Putting thousands of them on a Classic is just a giant mistake? Really?

So I guess I will call Michelin on Monday and ask them why they are providing an OEM tire to Airstream for Classics (with their knowledge to be sure) that they do not "recommend" or "endorse" (as you say) for that use, that is not fit for the intended use and is likely somehow dangerous based upon trailer use, engineering, etc. and ask what will come of my warranty on a new OEM tire when I buy a Classic? You said "Michelin "does not" recommend nor endorse use on TT's" but somehow they sell thousands of these to AS for Classics despite it being the wrong tire that won't ever be covered by Michelin as to warranty? Hmmmm.....

The fact that you don't want to spend $2.3k or so for 16" nicer-looking (or just different) wheels and "better" tires (IMHO) is your choice, but that doesn't mean that you sticking with 15" wheels and GY Endurance STs is the "correct" or "better" choice.

This is just another example of why we see page after page after page on here of upgrades from OEM Airstream "features" and parts. The same holds true for SOB trailers, cars and many other items all across the spectrum of commerce.

YMMV.
You don't have to wait till Monday to call Michelin and ask this question. I have called Michelin, and talked with Discount Tire managers on this topic few times to confirm warranty qustion, when I was looking for an alternative to the 15" Michelin vs new GYE Delima on my 2014 25'.. I had a tire shop in MT tell me they "would not install the Michelin's" because they are not warranted for use with travel trailers.

Hey, don't get so upset about this...just stating facts. Show me the Michelin warranty covering LT tires on a Travel Trailer.. there is none I am aware of. But, call Michelin. There are several posts supporting the ST for TT applications vs LT, but as was said: TETO or something like that...

Goodyear Endurance ST235/85R16 Load Range E - Maximum Load per tire is 3,640 Pounds
Michelin XPS Rib, LT235/85R16 Load Range E - Maximum Load per tire is 3,042 Pounds.

The ST tire in the same size and load range is rated for 598 more pounds of load per tire. Or 2,382 across all four tires. I would NOT use a tire that has a lower load range than what Grand Design has specified as stated on the tire loading label on the side of the trailer. This site is but one:
https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...-trailer-tires

"If you really want to use an LT tire, you'll need to use a larger tire or a larger load range in order to get the load capacity back up to where it's supposed to be.

Personally, I'd stick with a good quality ST tire such as the Goodyear Endurance. In fact, tire stores such as Discount Tire will frequently refuse to swap a lower rated LT tire for the same sized ST tire." from "Jim"
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Old 06-18-2022, 11:36 AM   #83
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Maybe someone with a Classic with Michelin LT tires installed from the factory can look in their Airstream delivery manual/literature package for the Michelin warranty information. Bet it is in there.
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Old 06-18-2022, 11:49 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
For all your "TETO" folks, "which" is the meaning of TETO?

Meanings if you Google:

Urban Dictionary: Teto "Teto" is a colloquial term used in Mexico to refer to someone who is nerdy, childlike, slow or has a weak demeanor, thus making this person some sort of social outcast. It lies somewhere between idiot and silly.

Wikipedia (0.00 / 0 votes) Rate this definition: Teto. Teto, or "Teto the Clown",

TETO - Definition by Acronym Finder Meaning; TETO: They Eat Their Own; TETO: Test Early, Test Often

"Actually, Teto Beverage, or "Teto" as we call him by his name, is a very good friend of our family...you may know him from his "Vodka"! I find

From Gary; post #63 above:
"While ST tires are allegedly "built" for a trailer, that doesn't mean that they are somehow "better" for the travel trailer application than a proper spec LT tire that is "not built" for a TT application.

I have a vinyl floor and Girard water heater in my AS that are "built" for it, but that doesn't mean that upgrading to an AduraMAX LVP floor or a Truma water heater isn't a worthwhile upgrade even if not "built" for it.

Yes, "TETO" as one of the forum members says ad infinitum - but it is pretty clear that many have found that a proper spec of a Michelin LT tire can be, and often times is, a better choice than an OEM ST GYE tire." ??

Guess it's like TV's, or hitches right? Everyone has an opinion? The GYE ST tires are 10 ply tires, specifically built with "stronger" sidewalls for the stress/load of a TT; Michelin makes a great LT rated tire...I run on my TV's, and yes, they are installed on some models of TT's also...but, that doesn't mean they are a "better" tire for a TT application, right? More expensive for sure and perhaps better "mileage" than the GYE ST tires, but Micheline does not recommend them for TT's....call Michelin and ask them, if you don't believe, TETO!

( by the way, that's Teto on the left with my son and I in Austin when my son returned from Afghanistan couple years back.)

If you read the material list info molded on the tire sidewall you will not find "10 PLy" or 10 Layers of body cord. Some GYE are LR-C, some are LR-D and some are LR-E. The construction on LR-E tires is "stronger" tan LR-C tires in many components such as the bead wire but that doesn't make them "stronger" for resisting the unique forces that tires in trailer application must tolerate (Interply Shear).
Yes many tire companies do not recommend their LT tires for trailer application because the tire companies know that a majority of RV trailer owners do not maintain their tires.
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Old 06-18-2022, 01:45 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
You don't have to wait till Monday to call Michelin and ask this question. I have called Michelin, and talked with Discount Tire managers on this topic few times to confirm warranty qustion, when I was looking for an alternative to the 15" Michelin vs new GYE Delima on my 2014 25'.. I had a tire shop in MT tell me they "would not install the Michelin's" because they are not warranted for use with travel trailers.

Hey, don't get so upset about this...just stating facts. Show me the Michelin warranty covering LT tires on a Travel Trailer.. there is none I am aware of. But, call Michelin. There are several posts supporting the ST for TT applications vs LT, but as was said: TETO or something like that...

Goodyear Endurance ST235/85R16 Load Range E - Maximum Load per tire is 3,640 Pounds
Michelin XPS Rib, LT235/85R16 Load Range E - Maximum Load per tire is 3,042 Pounds.

The ST tire in the same size and load range is rated for 598 more pounds of load per tire. Or 2,382 across all four tires. I would NOT use a tire that has a lower load range than what Grand Design has specified as stated on the tire loading label on the side of the trailer. This site is but one:
https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...-trailer-tires

"If you really want to use an LT tire, you'll need to use a larger tire or a larger load range in order to get the load capacity back up to where it's supposed to be.

Personally, I'd stick with a good quality ST tire such as the Goodyear Endurance. In fact, tire stores such as Discount Tire will frequently refuse to swap a lower rated LT tire for the same sized ST tire." from "Jim"

Not sure what Grand Design says about their trailers and tires is relevant to this discussion.

The ST235/85R16 size you quoted is not what AS puts on a Classic, so that's not relevant. GY does not make a 225/75R16 Endurance tire. Must be a reason...maybe because AS won't buy one for a Classic?

https://www.goodyear.com/en-US/tires...ce/sizes-specs

On a 33' Classic, Airstream is installing Michelin LT 225/75R16 tires that can only be one of the following: Agilis CrossClimates @ 225/75R16C 121/120R @ either 3197 lbs. (121) or 3086 lbs. (120R). Either one of those has plenty of capacity for a 33' at 8375 lbs. base or 10k GVWR for both the 121 or the 120R.

https://www.airstream.com/travel-tra...lans=33fb-twin

My PB 28' is 6600 lbs. base and 7600 lbs. GVWR. The 225/75R15 GY Endurance OEM tires are rated at 2830 lbs. each. Again, using your logic of "more capacity is better", why in the world would I not want 1468 lbs. more capacity across 4 tires than my current tires by going with the Michelin Agilis in a 225/75R16? This also being well above my factory AS spec sticker as well?

I still can't get past your premise of AS selling Classics with Michelin LT tires somehow without a manufacturers warranty (despite the Michelin OEM Warranty language above that you ignored), without AS or Michelin somehow knowing this is "wrong", or because some random Discount Tire employee or a guy named "Jim" told you not to, or because an alleged call to Michelin was made at some time to some employee that is in direct contravention to their written warranty on their own site.

Do you really believe that USDOT, NHTSA or the CPSC is going to let AS sell hundreds of trailers and thousands of tires to be put out on the road if they were in fact not recommended or unsafe for that intended application? Do you know how the concepts of product liability and stream of commerce apply in a lawsuit?

If Michelin did not "recommend" this use, wouldn't they simply not sell the tires to AS? Do you think AS has employees pose as retail customers and roll into Costco, DT or other tire shops to secretly buy these tires and then smuggle them to JC for a clandestine install?

Nobody is upset, but perhaps just bewildered by the bizarre assumptions that you are making.
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Old 06-18-2022, 05:19 PM   #86
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It is really all rather simple. Airstream started using the LT tires when ST tires were complete crap. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the Michelin LT tires will work reliably in trailer use. So, no reason for Airstream to have the appearance of a perceived downgrade of going from Michelin to Goodyear tires.

The premise of the original post was that the OEM Goodyear Endurance tires were horrible and that it was wise to swap out immediately for LT tires. In the opinion of many here including me, the Goodyears are quality tires and there is no need to do so.
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Old 06-19-2022, 08:14 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WellSaid11 View Post
Not sure what Grand Design says about their trailers and tires is relevant to this discussion.

The ST235/85R16 size you quoted is not what AS puts on a Classic, so that's not relevant. GY does not make a 225/75R16 Endurance tire. Must be a reason...maybe because AS won't buy one for a Classic?

https://www.goodyear.com/en-US/tires...ce/sizes-specs

On a 33' Classic, Airstream is installing Michelin LT 225/75R16 tires that can only be one of the following: Agilis CrossClimates @ 225/75R16C 121/120R @ either 3197 lbs. (121) or 3086 lbs. (120R). Either one of those has plenty of capacity for a 33' at 8375 lbs. base or 10k GVWR for both the 121 or the 120R.

https://www.airstream.com/travel-tra...lans=33fb-twin

My PB 28' is 6600 lbs. base and 7600 lbs. GVWR. The 225/75R15 GY Endurance OEM tires are rated at 2830 lbs. each. Again, using your logic of "more capacity is better", why in the world would I not want 1468 lbs. more capacity across 4 tires than my current tires by going with the Michelin Agilis in a 225/75R16? This also being well above my factory AS spec sticker as well?

I still can't get past your premise of AS selling Classics with Michelin LT tires somehow without a manufacturers warranty (despite the Michelin OEM Warranty language above that you ignored), without AS or Michelin somehow knowing this is "wrong", or because some random Discount Tire employee or a guy named "Jim" told you not to, or because an alleged call to Michelin was made at some time to some employee that is in direct contravention to their written warranty on their own site.

Do you really believe that USDOT, NHTSA or the CPSC is going to let AS sell hundreds of trailers and thousands of tires to be put out on the road if they were in fact not recommended or unsafe for that intended application? Do you know how the concepts of product liability and stream of commerce apply in a lawsuit?

If Michelin did not "recommend" this use, wouldn't they simply not sell the tires to AS? Do you think AS has employees pose as retail customers and roll into Costco, DT or other tire shops to secretly buy these tires and then smuggle them to JC for a clandestine install?

Nobody is upset, but perhaps just bewildered by the bizarre assumptions that you are making.
Show me the Michelin Warranty information that says they cover or it is "ok" to use on Travel Trailers! Thats all I am saying...
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Old 06-19-2022, 08:28 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Show me the Michelin Warranty information that says they cover or it is "ok" to use on Travel Trailers! Thats all I am saying...
The warranty language cannot be more clear:

"As the original purchaser of a vehicle equipped with MICHELIN® passenger or light truck tires, you are covered by all the benefits and conditions (subject to the maintenance recommendations and safety warnings) contained in this booklet."


You bought a Classic directly from Airstream and are the original purchaser.

It came with Michelin LT tires.

Per Michelin's warranty book, you are covered.


Again, unless this is all some grand conspiracy by AS to circumvent common sense, regulations, engineering standards, Michelin's recommendations, etc. you have it in writing.

I do not work for Michelin or AS, speak for them or otherwise. However, and I could be wrong, but to believe that these Classics are being sold without Michelin's blessing and a warranty is ridiculous.
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Old 06-19-2022, 11:25 AM   #89
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In other threads it is well documents by users contacting Michelin that Michelin does not recommend any of their tires for trailer use. They do NOT manufacturer ST tires so why would they claim any of their tires are designed for trailer use?

With that said, it is well documented again on other threads on this website from users experiences that if a Michelin tire on a trailer has a defect they will honor the warranty with coverage for that tire installed on a trailer. Again that is just good business.

Airstream started using Michelin tires because of consumer demand. GY Marathons were not up for the job. Mostly because there is not the same kind of regulation of tires on non-passenger vehicles as there is for passenger vehicles. Trailer manufacturers of all types would install tires that had no load capacity margin. (Mostly due to cost) Meaning if the towed load on a trailer was 4400 pounds the tires used maxed out at 4400 pounds. That would NEVER happen on a passenger car or light truck. Consumers (new trailer buyers) drove this demand to get tires with high load capacity. Part of that was achieved with larger diameter rims. With those larger rims a larger tire could be used that had far greater load capacity. So why make a tire (at greater cost) that has more load capacity if the trailer manufacturer does not want that. (and no laws for compliance)

Initially Air Stream got around the liability of installing LT tires on trailer by having the Service Center change out the ST tires for the LT tires. Trailers were manufactured with ST tires. The Service Center is a separate company from the manufacturing company. Since the Service Center does not function as a manufacturer, they only do work as directed by the consumer, Air Stream could get the tires changed just before delivery, skirting some liability because the consumer asked for it. I do not think that is happening now however I am not sure.

After Good Year introduced Endurance tires to replace the Marathons most of the tire failure issues went away. Because Endurance tires could handle much greater loads than the Marathons.


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Old 06-19-2022, 11:33 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WellSaid11 View Post
The warranty language cannot be more clear:

"As the original purchaser of a vehicle equipped with MICHELIN® passenger or light truck tires, you are covered by all the benefits and conditions (subject to the maintenance recommendations and safety warnings) contained in this booklet."


You bought a Classic directly from Airstream and are the original purchaser.

It came with Michelin LT tires.

Per Michelin's warranty book, you are covered.


Again, unless this is all some grand conspiracy by AS to circumvent common sense, regulations, engineering standards, Michelin's recommendations, etc. you have it in writing.

I do not work for Michelin or AS, speak for them or otherwise. However, and I could be wrong, but to believe that these Classics are being sold without Michelin's blessing and a warranty is ridiculous.
I agree that statement looks pretty compelling if the term, "vehicle", includes "travel trailers" in their warranty description. (note it also says "passenger or light truck tires"; so one would assume you could use the "passenger" rated tires on a TT also?). I think it would sound better if it said "travel trailers" somewhere.

I have called/talked directly to Michelin on this couple years back and I was told "they (LT) are in use, but Michelin does not recommend, nor warranty. Could have changed their position by now, I suppose?...I will try to call also tomorrow.

Would be much better if they had an ST rated tire designated for use with Travel Trailers, IMHO..
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Old 06-19-2022, 06:54 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Would be much better if they had an ST rated tire designated for use with Travel Trailers, IMHO..

You’re referring to Michelin here, but I think it would be good to have a trailer tire specifically designed for travel trailers. Apart from the GYE, ST tires don’t seem to do well with being loaded up and run all day in summer heat at highway speeds. They seem to do well with utility and equipment trailers, but the operating conditions are often very different.

My trailer has GYEs, and they’ve been fine. They actually hold air, unlike most STs I’ve had previously! I have no complaints, and my experience so far has been far better than my experiences with Goodyear passenger tires (on cars).

However, I will most likely go with an LT of some description next time. A smooth ride and reliability are more important to me than warranty coverage.
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Old 06-19-2022, 07:35 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by AlbertF View Post
You’re referring to Michelin here, but I think it would be good to have a trailer tire specifically designed for travel trailers. Apart from the GYE, ST tires don’t seem to do well with being loaded up and run all day in summer heat at highway speeds. They seem to do well with utility and equipment trailers, but the operating conditions are often very different.

My trailer has GYEs, and they’ve been fine. They actually hold air, unlike most STs I’ve had previously! I have no complaints, and my experience so far has been far better than my experiences with Goodyear passenger tires (on cars).

However, I will most likely go with an LT of some description next time. A smooth ride and reliability are more important to me than warranty coverage.



yep, x2
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Old 06-22-2022, 05:06 PM   #93
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Certification Label

Can anyone provide a photo of an AS trailer Certification Label showing other than ST type tires?
The label is essentially a legal document as I understand it as DOT, FMVSS Regulations require the vehicle manufacturer to affix that label to all vehicles and the label is to state the tire type, size, and LR and inflation along with the GAWR.


As a tire design engineer, I know that LT type tires must pass more stringent test requirements than ST type tires so it is reasonable for me to believe that a tire that can pass more difficult testing could be considered to be an acceptable alternative for the vehicle owner to select as long as the subject tire was rated to support equal or greater load capacity than the OE tire.
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Old 06-22-2022, 05:24 PM   #94
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@Tireman9-

Don’t the stickers only show the tires that are OEM on the trailer, size, dry weight, max cargo weight and max tire pressure for those tires?

If that sticker under the DOT, FVMSS, etc. regs shows a specific tire, does that mean in your opinion that no other tire type or size can “legally” be put on that trailer or vehicle?

So if a Classic shows an LT, then……?

Seems kind of crazy as lots of people put different size tires, etc. on cars and trucks all the time.
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Old 06-22-2022, 10:19 PM   #95
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Can anyone provide a photo of an AS trailer Certification Label showing other than ST type tires?


As requested. . .

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Old 06-23-2022, 12:44 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by WellSaid11 View Post
@Tireman9-

Don’t the stickers only show the tires that are OEM on the trailer, size, dry weight, max cargo weight and max tire pressure for those tires?

If that sticker under the DOT, FVMSS, etc. regs shows a specific tire, does that mean in your opinion that no other tire type or size can “legally” be put on that trailer or vehicle?

So if a Classic shows an LT, then……?

Seems kind of crazy as lots of people put different size tires, etc. on cars and trucks all the time.
It is all about liability -

Legally any modification would be examined in a court of law (If it ever got that far) as to what part the modification had in an event. That is usually the only place legally has a consideration. Otherwise, the more likely situation in "an event" is an insurance company writes a check. And your cost of future vacations goes way up.

The exception to that would be if the policy limits and a claimant wants to pursue. Should that happen, vacationing in the future may be curtailed.

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Old 06-23-2022, 08:56 AM   #97
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2017 28' FC Twin tire sticker. Note on my rig, they post an ST rated tire and 65psi recommended cold pressure; "not" 80psi, as some folks like to argue about. (not sure why I did not check my sticker out earlier, instead of arguing!)

I still run 58-60 psi cold. Note- no mention of LT, so question still remains...if AS did not install an LT and list an LT, like they do on some models, does that mean you can change from the ST to an LT without the sticker mentioning that specific tire?? (oh, oh...here we go again?)
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Old 06-23-2022, 09:24 AM   #98
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Michelin reply on ST vs LT for travel trailers.

I called Michelin this morning and actually talked with one of their marketing folks on the topic. Michelin said they do not "recommend" running an LT rated Michelin on a "travel trailer" because an ST tire is designed/constructed for use with a travel trailer stress/use model with stiffer sidewalls; the LT is designed/constructed for use for different vehicle application. She did say even though they do not recommend or endorse use with a travel trailer application, Michelin likely would warrant/cover the tire, should something happen. She did not elaborate what else that could include.
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Old 06-23-2022, 10:01 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
I called Michelin this morning and actually talked with one of their marketing folks on the topic. Michelin said they do not "recommend" running an LT rated Michelin on a "travel trailer" because an ST tire is designed/constructed for use with a travel trailer stress/use model with stiffer sidewalls; the LT is designed/constructed for use for different vehicle application. She did say even though they do not recommend or endorse use with a travel trailer application, Michelin likely would warrant/cover the tire, should something happen. She did not elaborate what else that could include.
The approval given to Airstream by Michelin to utilize Michelin LT tires on an Airstream Travel Trailer would be on a corporate level and not something one of the marketing folks would be directly involved with or aware of. The marketing information given is the "typical" generic response, not with respect to the approved application for an Airstream TT. As noted in prior posts Michelin would most certainly provide a warranty on OEM-installed tires.
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Old 06-23-2022, 10:23 AM   #100
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So...if you are going that route, it looks like based upon the above sticker on that Classic that AS put the lower load rating Agilis CrossClimate on? One is directional, and one is not, C-Metric and LT Metric. Several different variants as to load rating as well:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...omCompare1=yes

https://dcadprod.azureedge.net/b2b-e...ct-sheet-e.pdf
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