Tri Axle Question

[bryanl]

Andy: "Proper loading (weight distribution) assures towing stability."

I certainly agree with this, but the connection to hitch load leveling is what I am skeptical about.

Proper rigging can be obtained with a ball only configuration if the tow vehicle is designed to handle that sort of vertical load at the hitch point. As an extreme example, look at the trucks used to tow mobile homes - they are ball only.

The purpose of load leveling hitches is, primarily, to distribute hitch weight forward on a tow vehicle that might otherwise have excess weight removed from the steering wheels or excess weight added to the rear axle. Distributing load aft to the trailer axles is just a necessary side effect.

But if the rigging has the trailer level and the tow vehicle level (weight of each evenly distributed on their axles as designed) and within specs on the axles then it is rigged properly with or without load leveling devices.

Proper loading and weight distribution is another matter. The advice about running with a full fresh water tank for a lower CG, keeping heavy weights near the trailer axles, and putting 12% of the trailer gross weight on the tongue are all good rules of thumb for proper rig loading.

Load leveling hitches shouldn't be confused with sway control mechanisms, either, which I have seen a lot of people do.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I was worried that I was missing something. Its a complex topic and sure stimulates a lot of debate but you provided a good caveat that people should pay attention to.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Bryan.

Proper rigging has many forms.

I referred to proper rigging that is necessary to tow an Airstream or Argosy trailer.

That has absolutely "nothing" to do with anything else, not boats, not equipment trailers, nor semi-trailers.

Part of a new comers problem, is to get the correct facts etc, the first time around. When we bring up what other industries may do, leads to misunderstandings and confusion.

Lets keep this to "EXACTLY" Airstream and Argosy trailers, period.

We must use load equalizing hitches, others may not.

If we do not, we become a statistic, sooner or later. Records over the years by Caravanner Insurance more than guaranteed that.

We must keep in mind, that there is no such thing as being "overly safe or too safe".

Being a statistic for a collision loss is bad enough, as it will never be a "convenient collision".

Being a statistic in the obituary column, is even worse. I know, as I have helped some of the surviving families, survive, the results of a severe collision, caused by "improper rigging". Not an easy, or pleasant task, I assure you.

Andy

[rideair]

I went back and looked at my old "The Airstream Story" from 1966/67 and 1970-72. One will find that the "hitch weight" around 8%-15% of the weight on all models. What I did find interesting was the lower numbers were on some of the larger trailers. Example: 1970, 29' Ambassador Double, Hitch Wt. 450lbs, Total Wt. 4715lbs. It was the smaller trailers that had the higher %. Example: 1970, 18' Caravel, Hitch Wt. 350lbs, Total Wt. 2880lbs.. But, one would say that even though the larger trailer has a smaller % of hitch weight at first, after loading gear, water, etc... it would fall in line with the smaller trailers, I would think. If you have never had the chance to read the "Car & Driver" story done in 1969 about cars, towing, hitching, etc... I would suggest that as some good reading. They showed that a car pulling and Airstream trailer can stop quicker than a car "without" a trailer. Also, talked about a "hands-off" way of stopping an out of control fish-tailing. What "Andy" speaks about is ways of hitching that have shown to work for over 35 years, has been tested on test tracks and followed up with real world data from people that did not hitch-up correctly. If done "correctly" you don't need a dual wheel 1 ton truck to pull an Airstream. As with other things in life, we make up for wrongs in one area by over doing in others.


Paul Waddell
WBCCI/VAC/WDCU 1270
Front Royal, Va.

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by rideair

Also, talked about a "hands-off" way of stopping an out of control fish-tailing.

this is called a tease! ;-) what technique were they describing?

Originally Posted by rideair

What "Andy" speaks about is ways of hitching that have shown to work for over 35 years, has been tested on test tracks and followed up with real world data from people that did not hitch-up correctly. If done "correctly" you don't need a dual wheel 1 ton truck to pull an Airstream.

and, by the same token, not every rig requires load leveling devices or sway bars, including Airstream trailer based rigs.

They do need safety chains and a breakaway switch and proper rigging and other due care, but, I don't agree with Andy that you must have a load leveling hitch to safely tow an Airstream. There's a lot more than 35 years of experience available to demonstrate that.

[85MH325]

Bryan... I probably shouldn't even respond, but I can't help taking the bait. This is an age-old argument that rages across every forum on the web. Having towed a '61 Bambi 16', a 23' Safari, and now a 34' Behemoth thousands and thousands of miles over the years with various tow vehicles from a 3/4 Supercab truck to a Chevy Astro, and from my experience I concur with Andy. If you're towing a Bambi with a 3/4 truck, you probably don't need either because of the weight difference, but any time the tow vehicle weight is less than twice the weight of the trailer, you'd better at least have sway control.

I know, I know, there'll be a bunch of folks who say "I've done it for years and never had a problem" and those sentences should ALWAYS end in 'yet'.


Roger

[Inland RV Center, In]

Leipper.

It would appear from your thoughts that your a "non-believer" in proper rigging.

Several years ago, I settled with the estate of a couple that was pulling a Caravel with a 1/2 ton truck, with just a ball.

Lost control and flipped it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dry pavement, no wind, about 50 MPH from witnesses.

Would not the results of such impress you?

It has impressed several thosands of others.

Not meant to be a scare, but it is "fact."

Andy

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by 85MH325

This is an age-old argument that rages ... If you're towing a Bambi with a 3/4 truck, you probably don't need either because of the weight difference, but any time the tow vehicle weight is less than twice the weight of the trailer, you'd better at least have sway control.

you just made my point(s)!

First is that sway control and load leveling are two different issues.

Second is that the need for load leveling and/or sway control depends upon the configurations of trailer and tow vehicle. Load leveling is always first as that helps prevent tow vehicle steering instabilities due to rear loading. If that isn't enough, then additional sway control is needed.

You also provided a good rule of thumb for sway control that also gives hints about how to decide upon the type of sway control. IMHO, though, weight in this rule of thumb is only an approximation for various lengths. The wheelbase rule of thumb is, for that reason, inherently better but even it misses the critical rear overhang distance (which the HA and PR shorten as their primary means of effectiveness in sway control).

The fact is that absolutes are very seldom found in the real world and conditions can create exceptions. We do better to help people understand the why rather than to preach a gospel they may reject as inconvenient. I think that not having a good understanding of issues but rather only gospel is also one reason why the argument rages.

as for the Bambi and the truck, see here:
http://sierranevadaairstreams.org/memories/travelogues/

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Leipper. It would appear from your thoughts that your a "non-believer" in proper rigging.

Andy,

You are getting personal as well as incorrect. This is not a good way to go about things.

I am very much in favor of proper rigging, proper choice of tow vehicles for your Airstream, proper configuration, proper loading, and good driving with a proper attitude.

I think everyone is best served by understanding what "proper rigging" is and why it is not an absolute one-solution-for-everyone-for-every-configuration but rather an appropriate and proper set-up for the circumstances and equipment.

See
http://sierranevadaairstreams.org/ow...tch-setup.html
for a description and additional links that I consider appropriate.

The picture on the page also shows how even seasoned Airstreamers with all the right equipment can still have improper and unsafe rigging. I just ran across another one where the umbilical was not dressed properly and caused significant strain on the cabling that caused a loose ground (i.e. hazard of loss of brake) - not to mention cable wear from dragging on things (potential loss of signal and fire hazard). These were long term Airstreamers in both cases with all the proper equipment but still missing important facets of "proper rigging."

As for your tragic story, it is indeed tragic, but the question is about what caused it. I have seen an Airstream with a Hensley overturned on the road north of here. From what I can tell, most such accidents are usually caused by things like blowouts and driver error (especially sleepy drivers on Nevada's I80). I have seen or heard of none caused by a 'ball only' hitch.

Sway disasters even occur to rigs with load leveling and sway control. They usually become tragic because of poor driver response or behavior. To find an accident and blame it on something convenient is not helpful to anyone's understanding about how to improve their own safety.

It is indeed a fact that tragedies happen. But we need to know why so we can perhaps reduce our odds of having a similar tragedy. To me, the best route to safety is an educated and aware driver. When you have that, you have proper rigging, proper driving, and a proper approach towards safety that makes for a safer Airstreaming experience for all of us.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Bryan.

I stated why.

No load equalizing hitch, now sway control, just a ball.

No wind, no bad pavements, pavement dry, 50 MPH (from several witnesses).

Reason. Lost control because of no rigging, which is just one of the ways to be improperly rigged.

I think at think point, we are into differences between theories and facts, as anyone may chose to accept.

I shall not post further on this subject.

Andy

[bryanl]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

I stated why.

sorry Andy, but that is incompetent. It does not provide a mechanism whereby a simple hitch can cause an accident of and by itself in a manner a load leveling hitch or sway control hitch would prevent.

There are many thousands of trailers out there using only a ball and not load leveling or sway control running up many millions of miles of safe travel over very many years. Yet you are saying they are not safe. The facts contradict you,

The fact is that trailers with the fanciest hitches get into accidents as well as trailers with the simplest hitches. Odds are more of the simple hitches are in accidents because there are so many more of them. It is very seldom that the hitch is the cause of the accident and the only incidents I have seen or heard about where that is the case is because of mechanical failure.

It is probably best to go along with you and let it go. I consider your position just as dangerous as you seem to think mine is. So let the information and support we have each provided for our points of view be the raw material from which those seeking advice can find their own views. But let's hope they are a bit more in touch with facts and good statistics that is often seen!

[rideair]

[QUOTE=Leipper]this is called a tease! ;-) what technique were they describing?

I will double check this on Thurs., for I will be going by my trailer where I have the write up. But how I remember it was something like this:

When a trailer starts to fish-tail it is the "fighting" of the fish-tail that makes it worst. As the driver is turning the wheel back and forth to "re-gain" control, you can make the fish-tailing worst. They found by taking your hands off the wheel and not fighting the fish-tailing the car will absorb the motion. Though, as they said, this method takes alot of trust. But, if one thinks about "motion" if somethig is flexing back and forth in the middle whats the fast way of stopping the flexing? A: By taking one of the stationary end points away and allowing one end to to also flex or move.

Again, I will look for writeup and put it out for another topic. I'm sure there will be some feed back.

Paul