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Old 04-20-2006, 11:30 PM   #61
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Hello zeppelinium,

It sure sounds odd that your swing arm is going slightly up.I think a call to the manufacture to get their specs on installed position is in order.. Youve worked very hard to get to where your at ,and very thorough job.it could be possible as you have surmised that the 4000lb rating may be wrong .I hope not, give them a shout!!

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Old 04-28-2006, 11:10 AM   #62
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Axis has asked for the bare axle back for some analysis. It will be a couple of weeks before I get home and can comply. In the mean time, I wanted to get certified weights to make sure the local garden supply scale was accurate.

AXLE WEIGHTS FRONT REAR TRAILER
Truck w/ Trailer 3820# 3800# 3720#
Truck alone 3980# 3220# --

From this I conclude (the truck is an F-250 diesel, the trailer is an 18' 1971 Caravel):

Truck weight 7200# (includes generator, trailer spare tire, extra fuel)
Trailer weight 4140# (includes 28 gal of water, food, other normal stock)
Tongue weight 420#

With a trailer axle weight of 3720 lbs, the sprung weight on the torsion axle is about 3550 lbs (subtract two wheels, tires, drums, brake plates and 1/2 the swing arms and spindles). Maybe a 3700 axle would be better, which would allow for a toolbox and the occasional late sleeper.

What puzzles me is that the original axle had a spec plate for 4000 lbs. I feel like I've added weight, since I replaced all the orginal 1/8" panels with 1/2" maple plywood, added a second battery, microwave, Pergo flooring, and a new fridge that is a couple inches taller. The only thing I really removed was the carpet--I'd say that's about a one-for-one trade with the Pergo. So I'm thinking I'm a little heavier now than when the trailer was new.
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Old 04-28-2006, 12:57 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeppelinium
Axis has asked for the bare axle back for some analysis. It will be a couple of weeks before I get home and can comply. In the mean time, I wanted to get certified weights to make sure the local garden supply scale was accurate.

Axis uses rubber rods that are stiffer than those used in Henschen axles.

Therefore, if you increase the weight rating of the Axis axle, that has the stiffer rubber rods, it will result in the trailer having a much stiffer ride. Depending on how you may or may not load the trailer, that could cause potentially a structural problem.

On the other hand, if you increase the rating to 4400 or 4500 pounds with the Henschen softer rubber rods, you would be OK.

The Axis rubber rods are made from extruded rubber, 80 Duro, that has a set test of 10.084 to 10.324 percent. They have a modulus test of 3700 pounds.

The Henschen rubber rods are made from molded rubber, 70 Duro, and have a set test of 9.026 to 9.154 percent. They have a modulus test of 2800 pounds.

The lower the set test, the better, and the lower the modulus test, the better, both of which result in a softer ride.

Andy
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Old 04-28-2006, 02:15 PM   #64
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Andy, do you know what the Dexter modulus is? It would be interesting to compare, if indeed this number has a direct relation to ride stiffness.

If I understand correctly, the stiffer Axis rubber has about 35% steeper spring rate (for equivalent lengths of rubber), so if the Henschen and Axis axles are sitting at about the same static position under the weight of the trailer, under dynamic loading the Axis swing arm will move in a shorter arc than the Henschen, for the same dynamic load.

The softer Henschen rubber raises a question in my mind. Since both axles have an unloaded angle of 22.5 degrees down, the Henschen would have to have more rubber and a higher weight spec if you intended for the static loaded position to be about 10 degrees down. Wouldn't a higher weight spec be equivalent to increasing the spring rate and you'd wind up with similar, if not exactly, the same ride stiffness?

I think my one neuron is beginning to smoke.... ... but I'm thinking that we all want to be axle experts and just love this techical stuff.

I will admit that I'm thinking my "spring rate is directly related to the modulus" concept/assumption is wrong, since a 4000 lb axle from either Vendor ought to sit at about the same initial static loaded angle. I don't know how you do that when you have the same starting down angle and different spring rates.
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Old 04-28-2006, 02:47 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeppelinium
Andy, do you know what the Dexter modulus is? It would be interesting to compare, if indeed this number has a direct relation to ride stiffness.

If I understand correctly, the stiffer Axis rubber has about 35% steeper spring rate (for equivalent lengths of rubber), so if the Henschen and Axis axles are sitting at about the same static position under the weight of the trailer, under dynamic loading the Axis swing arm will move in a shorter arc than the Henschen, for the same dynamic load.

The softer Henschen rubber raises a question in my mind. Since both axles have an unloaded angle of 22.5 degrees down, the Henschen would have to have more rubber and a higher weight spec if you intended for the static loaded position to be about 10 degrees down. Wouldn't a higher weight spec be equivalent to increasing the spring rate and you'd wind up with similar, if not exactly, the same ride stiffness?
We do not, unless requested to do so, use a 22 degree starting angle.

We suggest a 35 degree starting angle for two reasons. One to raise the trailer for more ground clearance and two, because of the higher profile tow vehicles today, the required drop shank hitch bar dimension can be shortened.

Henschen uses rubber rods that are 20 percent longer than the Axis rubber rods. As an example, when Henschen uses an 18 1/2 inch rod, times four on each side, Axis uses 15 inches rod on each side times four.

The Dexter information, is being compiled at this time.

Andy
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Old 04-28-2006, 09:20 PM   #66
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No rocket science here...

I have had my Axis axle under my Minuet for a year now.
After 5,000 plus miles, some of it Upper Peninsula two-tracks, I have suffered no ill effects of having the Axis axle on the trailer. Nothing has shaken apart. The axle is still in excellent shape. The complete E-coating is far superior to the hand-painted axle and it still looks new. My "unapproved" NAPA gas shocks are holding up just fine and the trailer has not blown up from them.
I pulled the trailer this past weekend and the brakes work great. No strange sounds or movements.
As far as I can tell, this is not rocket science. I am not concerned how long the rubber cords are. I have the oldest Axis axle on one of these trailers. Mine was the first.
Someone else had a problem with their Axis axle's backing plate that came loose. It could not be determined if it was from the RV repair place that installed it or if it was from the factory. The person I am referring to received his axle last summer. It was installed by an independent repair facility in California. This gentleman called Axis and all they asked was, "What was damaged? Did you replace it already? If so, how much did it cost? Where do you want the replacement parts sent? Do you need Axis to pay for the labor of the repairs? When can we send someone by to pick up the broken stuff?". He received his replacement backing plates with new drums and hardware within the same week. At no cost and no hassling with a vendor or the manufacturer. This is the way business should be conducted. Not just with axles either; everything.
I have seen posts on here about axles damaged in shipment. Let alone after they are used on the trailer. The vendor refused to pay for the shipping damages. It was a big hassle for the customer.
I am glad that I have an Axis axle. I am not going to worry about how hard the rubber cords are or how long they are. I am going to worry if I am getting my moneys worth. I am going to worry if I have a problem and I cannot get support. I am going to have a problem if I am questioned about how sincere I am about my warranty claim.
I will not lose any sleep over 15 inch rubber cords. I will lose sleep over buying an expensive axle and not having my legitimate warranty claim handled properly. There is a track record with this already. It is well documented here on the forums.
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Old 04-28-2006, 11:27 PM   #67
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Hey pattersontoo,

It sounds like you had a problem with someone elses brand of axle or somthing ,you sound a little bitter and you sound like you are thinking about the rubber rod length since you mentiond it 3 times in your post ,but I am glad your shocks didnt destroy your trailer .I think we all want the best service and warranty on anything we buy.

scott
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Old 04-29-2006, 06:39 AM   #68
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Uh oh.
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Old 04-29-2006, 11:32 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
Hey pattersontoo,

It sounds like you had a problem with someone elses brand of axle or somthing ,you sound a little bitter and you sound like you are thinking about the rubber rod length since you mentiond it 3 times in your post ,but I am glad your shocks didnt destroy your trailer .I think we all want the best service and warranty on anything we buy.

scott
Hi and welcome to the forums. I see that you are rather new.
I hope you enjoy the wealth of information that can be found on here. You may want to start by researching some of the previous posts on this forum. I think you may be missing some of the rich message history here.
Thanks for keeping track of the word count in my post though. You never know when a skill like that may come in handy.
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Old 04-29-2006, 02:04 PM   #70
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lou

let me remind you that you are also rather new here too.

play nice and stay on topic.

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Old 04-30-2006, 12:47 AM   #71
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Apples to apples!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
Axis uses rubber rods that are stiffer than those used in Henschen axles.

Therefore, if you increase the weight rating of the Axis axle, that has the stiffer rubber rods, it will result in the trailer having a much stiffer ride. Depending on how you may or may not load the trailer, that could cause potentially a structural problem.

On the other hand, if you increase the rating to 4400 or 4500 pounds with the Henschen softer rubber rods, you would be OK.

The Axis rubber rods are made from extruded rubber, 80 Duro, that has a set test of 10.084 to 10.324 percent. They have a modulus test of 3700 pounds.

The Henschen rubber rods are made from molded rubber, 70 Duro, and have a set test of 9.026 to 9.154 percent. They have a modulus test of 2800 pounds.

The lower the set test, the better, and the lower the modulus test, the better, both of which result in a softer ride.

Andy
Andy,

The axle that you purchased from me when I worked at Axis may contain different rubber cords than the one Zep is referring to. The lengths and durometer may vary. In order for a "test" to be fair and comprehensive - one must compare apples to apples.

No flames intended - but you may have only tested one Axis axle - thus it is unsafe to speak in generalities or make "all inclusive" statements.

Respectfully,
Henry
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Old 04-30-2006, 01:39 AM   #72
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Hello everyone,

I posted to pattersontoo ,commenting on his axle post .I believe that I caused offense to him in my wording about the rubber rods.I had no intention of trying to disparrage him in any way .I think the way I worded it sounded offensive ,but I did not mean to ,So I apologize to him .sometimes the thoughts come out wrong in writing the thought down, I see that my comment could be seen that way as i reread my posting ,I will be more careful in my future responses ,again I am sorry for that.

Scott
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Old 04-30-2006, 01:48 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
Hello everyone,

I posted to pattersontoo ,commenting on his axle post .I believe that I caused offense to him in my wording about the rubber rods.I had no intention of trying to disparrage him in any way .I think the way I worded it sounded offensive ,but I did not mean to ,So I apologize to him .sometimes the thoughts come out wrong in writing the thought down, I see that my comment could be seen that way as i reread my posting ,I will be more careful in my future responses ,again I am sorry for that.

Scott
I too apologize to Scott for any offense in my response to his response.
Not to take this off-topic but Scott and I have exchanged PM's regarding this. We handled a disagreement in a civil and private manner. I now feel that I have developed a new friendship from this private exchange.
I am sure that all of us can learn to settle disagreements in a private manner instead of airing it publicly and, quite possibly, causing more harsh feelings.
If Scott and I would have handled this differently we may not be on the friendly terms that I feel we are now.
Scott, I do sincerely apologize for any offense. Things get "read between the lines" in posts all of the time. Sometimes we all have to take what is written at face value.

***We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread***
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Old 04-30-2006, 01:54 AM   #74
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Karma to Scott and Lou. It is nice to see people discuss an issue and come to an understanding!
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Old 04-30-2006, 02:42 AM   #75
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Hear, hear!

Hear, Hear!

Moving back to the regularly scheduled thread....

Peace

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Old 04-30-2006, 08:27 AM   #76
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good job guys!

lou and scott,

thank you for working this out! i really would like it if everyone involved in this thread would use lou and scott as an example on how to be civil to each other!

this is one of the better threads on axle replacement, it would a shame to see it go into a downward spiral as so many in the past have.

lets try to use this thread as a way to get information out to others on the issues about axle replacement.

again, thanks to lou,scott,andy,zep,henry and everyone else who has contributed !

karma for all!

john
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:54 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axleman
Andy,

The axle that you purchased from me when I worked at Axis may contain different rubber cords than the one Zep is referring to. The lengths and durometer may vary. In order for a "test" to be fair and comprehensive - one must compare apples to apples.

No flames intended - but you may have only tested one Axis axle - thus it is unsafe to speak in generalities or make "all inclusive" statements.

Respectfully,
Henry
Henry.

First, you or Axis have never sold Inland RV Center, Inc., an axle. That assumption is incorrect.

Second, what may or may not be, is a matter of being defensive. What "IS" and what we found is the our answer.

Third, a number of apples were compared to apples.

Fourth, your assumption that onle "one" Axis axle was tested, is incorrect.

Fifth, a laboratory report is "specific" and does not deal in generalities as you suggested.

The laboratory report speaks for itself, along with photo's. Each person that reads it, can form their own conclusions.

As we all know, "any" product has a given reputation, regardless of what it is. That reputation must stand on it's own two feet, without exceptions, maybe's, could of beens, should of beens, or excuses.

We really are surprised, that you no longer recommend the Axis product.

That laboratory report will be on our site, with test results and photo's, when all hurdles have been cleared.

Respectally.

Andy
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:02 PM   #78
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You fellas have got me so dang scarred to replace my axles-it looks like I only have two choices:

1. Buy some property to park my Airstream on and never move it again for fear of my 30 year old 5 degree up angle axles bursting into flames igniting the entire northern hemisphere

2. Buying a used school bus and cutting away everything from the floor up and mounting my trailer on top as a rudimentary Class "C" RV
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:05 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevisgardne
You fellas have got me so dang scarred to replace my axles-it looks like I only have two choices:

1. Buy some property to park my Airstream on and never move it again for fear of my 30 year old 5 degree up angle axles bursting into flames igniting the entire northern hemisphere

2. Buying a used school bus and cutting away everything from the floor up and mounting my trailer on top as a rudimentary Class "C" RV
Well that is one way to make an axle repair.

And the thread is good to document Zep's progress.

You go Zep!

And keep us posted.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:26 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevisgardne
You fellas have got me so dang scarred to replace my axles-it looks like I only have two choices:

1. Buy some property to park my Airstream on and never move it again for fear of my 30 year old 5 degree up angle axles bursting into flames igniting the entire northern hemisphere

2. Buying a used school bus and cutting away everything from the floor up and mounting my trailer on top as a rudimentary Class "C" RV
You ask a very good question.

The answer is very simple.

Whenever you wish to replace anything in, or on, your Airstream product, if you stick to the original factory specs, you won't go wrong.

On extremely rare occassions, will that not be true.

Airstream, every year spends tons of money, so that you, the owner, don't have down the road headaches, and for most part see to it that the correct replacement parts are still available, for many many years. In fact, some parts for 1969 trailers are still available from Airstream.

Trying to out engineer the factory most always is a futile effort.

I am basing that on 40 my years with Airstream.

Seldom does Chevy parts work ok on a Cadillac.

Andy
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