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Old 02-11-2003, 01:49 PM   #1
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Trying to replace Penguin A/C

Has anyone investigated the specifications of the new Duo-Therm 15,000 BTU Penguin air conditioner? I've been corresponding with a person who is interested in replacing his failed 13,500 BTU Penguin. Apparently Airstream tech support is saying use the 13.5 unit but no reason was given. Supposedly the hatch opening size is the same and Duo-Therm tech support did not state that the pan size was different.

I know that the 15K unit is an available option on the larger A/S units so the only reasons I could see shying away from this unit are weight and or amperage draw. I encouraged the person to contact tech support again and ask them the reasons why he can use the bigger unit. We are dealing with a '91 trailer here so this isn't a vintage issue.

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Old 02-11-2003, 06:23 PM   #2
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Take a look again

Jack

Take a closer look at the :
http://www.dometicusa.com/products/r...m/penguin.html

You'll see, that the 15k ratings is not for the Penguin but, rather for the Brisk Air. Two different style units all together..
The highest rating for the Penguin is 13.5k, I suspect that's why they told you to stick with that capacity size.
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Old 02-11-2003, 08:10 PM   #3
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No even though the Duo-Therm web site doesn't show it yet there truly is a 15,000 BTU Penguin available. It's an option on the larger 2003 A/S units.

If you go out and do a search on the web with the words "15,000 BTU Penguin" you will find matches on many RV builer sites. Teton trailers is one who is extensively using this product. I also found one discount seller marketing this unit for $695. But alas no specs regarding power and weight.

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Old 02-11-2003, 11:55 PM   #4
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Smile Just a thought..

Jack

Kewl...just wanted to save you the fustration of looking for something that, "appeared" not to exist..
Sounds like a keeper, I'll be watching to see what you come up with. My unit will, undoubtedly, need replacing at some point in the future. (it's 19 yrs old and, still going strong)
You said the drain pan is the same, that seems to say that, it's opening is a proper fit. Have you looked into the differences in weight of the two units?
A/S seem to have several answer for a question.
This past summer, while there for some work on my unit, I asked about putting in a 'skylight' in the hallway area and, the ans I got back was,'the channel in the overhead was too narrow'. Which seemed odd to me but..I cured the problem by having lights installed in the wardroom closet and, the pantries area. That actually was cheaper and, works better~!~ Saves many choice words. lol
Another one, which still eludes me to this day, was..I wanted to replace the old TV ant with a satellite dish..But, once again..they said,' the roof structure would, in the long run, break down from the constant up/down motion while traveling..So, I'm still 98% original...lol
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Old 02-12-2003, 09:20 AM   #5
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I'm a while from A/C replacement myself but many of you who came from the Yahoo list may remember my woes on my second trip out with the brand new Safari on a 100 degree weekend in June 2001. My inside temps hit the middle to upper 80's in full sun. What was especially gauling was the fact that the fellow who bought my SOB which was the same size as my Airstream and which had a 13,500 BTU Brisk Air unit was parked next to me and was quite comfortable.

My local dealer couldn't find a problem, I took the trailer to Jackson Center where they looked for air intrusion (they realigned the door), I got the specs from Duo-Therm and we verified that the Penguin was operating within specs.

I finally wrote A/S and told them that in my opinion the unit was probably undersized. They told me that the unit I has was the largest available (in the Penguin model) and that it was the one used in the trailers from 27' to 34'. I asked, from a design level what was their expectation of temperature differential from inside to outside temps. (Most homes here in St. Louis are designed to hold temps 20 degrees below outside air.) The answer from Jackson Center was "we have no standards".

Bottom line as time has gone on I have picked up the vibes from a lot of folks that on most of the newer trailers, the 13,500 Penguin is marginal in very hot weather in full sun conditions. I wouldn't be surprised that the 15,000 BTU unit was welcomed by A/S. I personally don't know how a 34' trailer can be cooled adequately by a 13,500 unit. As a matter of fact I have seen a few 34' trailers with two units on the roof.

I know if I ever have to replace my Penguin it will be with the 15,000 BTU unit. At this point we do consider climate in our travel plans since the current unit will obviously not do the job in very hot full sun conditions.

Jack
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Old 02-12-2003, 10:05 AM   #6
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13500 AC

That is the same rating that I have in my 22' International, though of a different brand. It cools my traler quite adequately, in fact, it will just about freeze me out, but I'm quite sure it is gross underkill for any Airstream 27' and up.

At a hot-weather rally last year, just about everyone with the larger trailers were suffering. I looked at the AC in a friend's 34-footer and his AC was identical to mine. He had to leave the International rally last year because of the heat.

I'm quite sure that at least a 15000 btu is needed to cool the larger trailers adequately.
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Old 01-18-2004, 12:11 PM   #7
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Funny, here we all are almost a year later and the 15k BTU A/C unit is widely availible and installed on any coach that is 25' of larger by request or as standard equipment on the Airstream line.....

Eric
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Old 01-18-2004, 01:56 PM   #8
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Replacement AC

We purchased a Carrier 15,000 btu AC, so that we could have a pan made.

Interesting enough, that unit has what is called s "slinger." It's purpose is to throw the water onto the hot coil, making it evaporate.

However, we were able to simply modify their base pan, by installing a drain fitting at the bottom of the pan where the water collects. In doing so, all you need to do is hook up the drain hose in your trailer, to that fitting, and it's "done." Water no longer hits the slinger, but immediately drains.

No drain pan required.

That unit also has a built in oscillator for the louvers, which makes the air continuously flow up and down, if you wish. That causes considerably better circulation.

The Carrier also has a built in "air shower," that you can select to rapidly cool down when you come in all hot and sweaty.

I can't post any photo's but you can see that AC in our web site, part number 69090.

We think the Carrier will make all others obsolete, because of it's features.

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Old 01-19-2004, 04:51 AM   #9
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99 safari a/c

Quote:
Originally posted by jcanavera
I'm a while from A/C replacement myself but many of you who came from the Yahoo list may remember my woes on my second trip out with the brand new Safari on a 100 degree weekend in June 2001. My inside temps hit the middle to upper 80's in full sun. What was especially gauling was the fact that the fellow who bought my SOB which was the same size as my Airstream and which had a 13,500 BTU Brisk Air unit was parked next to me and was quite comfortable.

My local dealer couldn't find a problem, I took the trailer to Jackson Center where they looked for air intrusion (they realigned the door), I got the specs from Duo-Therm and we verified that the Penguin was operating within specs.

I finally wrote A/S and told them that in my opinion the unit was probably undersized. They told me that the unit I has was the largest available (in the Penguin model) and that it was the one used in the trailers from 27' to 34'. I asked, from a design level what was their expectation of temperature differential from inside to outside temps. (Most homes here in St. Louis are designed to hold temps 20 degrees below outside air.) The answer from Jackson Center was "we have no standards".

Bottom line as time has gone on I have picked up the vibes from a lot of folks that on most of the newer trailers, the 13,500 Penguin is marginal in very hot weather in full sun conditions. I wouldn't be surprised that the 15,000 BTU unit was welcomed by A/S. I personally don't know how a 34' trailer can be cooled adequately by a 13,500 unit. As a matter of fact I have seen a few 34' trailers with two units on the roof.

I know if I ever have to replace my Penguin it will be with the 15,000 BTU unit. At this point we do consider climate in our travel plans since the current unit will obviously not do the job in very hot full sun conditions.
i have found this to be the case also jack on my 99 safari 27 ft with the 13500 btu penguin. it definately isnt over p-owered.especeially not on the hot weather days. i have also put a new 13500 btu penguin in my 19ft 62 globetrotter and it definately isnt even over powered there but does the job"ok"in both. take care wayne wunder w.b.c.c,i/v.a.c.#1859 62 globetrotter/99 safari
Jack
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Old 01-19-2004, 05:43 AM   #10
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blower

heres a thought...

last year when camping with a fellow forum member i noticed a difference in operation between out otherwise identical 13.5 units.

my blower runs constantly when the ac is on, roger's shuts off during non demand just like it would in your home.

wondering if there is cold air being left in the cooling coils, not being utilized when the unit cycles.

my trailer cools efectively in all conditions shade or not.

how do others operate? i am postitive mine if original factory wiring.

perhaps constant air flow = cooler trailer.

waddya folks think?

does your 13.5 run 24/7 or does it cycle the blower on and off?

john
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Old 01-19-2004, 07:29 AM   #11
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Well, the '03 Bambi did the same thing your unit did, but I am unsure what the new unit will do yet. If it is anything like the furnace, it might power down after the cycle is finished, but I'll have to let you know once it gets above 4 degrees!

Eric
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:03 AM   #12
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Andy:

To a extent I am wondering if completly draining isn't counter productive. The amount of heat exchanged using cool water on the coils is increasing the effeicency tremendously.

I'm sure there is a point where the amount of water is going to exceed the resivorior in a humid climate and have to drain somewhere. What if you plumbed in the drain just below that point to keep the slinger functioning? It would be the best of both worlds.

Thanks for the heads up on this product. I will deffinatly look at it when we get to the A/C part of our restoration.
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:13 AM   #13
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Re: blower

Quote:
Originally posted by john hd
heres a thought...

last year when camping with a fellow forum member i noticed a difference in operation between out otherwise identical 13.5 units.

my blower runs constantly when the ac is on, roger's shuts off during non demand just like it would in your home.

does your 13.5 run 24/7 or does it cycle the blower on and off?

john
In the current Classics with the climate control thermostat, the blower cycles on and off. On my previous 2003 International, the blower stayed on all the time. So far, I haven't hit any real hot weather with my new Classic since I bought it in October.

Turning the blower off gives better humidity control since the condensation on the coils will drain instead of being evaporated right back into the trailer. There was a post some time back by an AC engineer who stressed that point. Lower humidity should mean a more comfortable trailer.
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Old 01-19-2004, 12:30 PM   #14
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blower

The single AC on our 34' really struggles to keep it cool if the outside temp gets much above 90. It's stays more comfortable when the fan control is set to high/continuous during the day. At night we set the fan to Auto where it cycles on and off with the compressor.

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Old 01-19-2004, 01:51 PM   #15
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Re: blower

Quote:
Originally posted by john hd
wondering if there is cold air being left in the cooling coils, not being utilized when the unit cycles.

how do others operate? i am postitive mine if original factory wiring.

perhaps constant air flow = cooler trailer.

waddya folks think?

does your 13.5 run 24/7 or does it cycle the blower on and off?

john
John as quoted above the unit in my Safari was 13.5 and ran continously. My new 15K unit in my Classic cycles. Its just a matter of the type of thermostat that is supplied. Most Airstream's with the wall thermostats that control cooling will allow for a fan shutdown once set point is hit. I have always found that this method produces a more comfortable trailer since it does not reintroduce humidity into the air like continously running fans do.

I've spoken to a lot of folks where the 13.5K unit is marginal in very warm climes on trailers 30+ feet. I never repeated the circumstance that occured on my first trip when my initial disatisfaction occured. I had both Airstream at Jackson Center and my local dealer look at the unit and both pronounced it working perfectly. Jackson Center did realign my door which could have caused some air intrusion thus affecting the unit's operation.

We camped one additional time at temps near 100 but were in the shade and the unit stayed cool. Personally I never understood how a 13.5K unit could cool effectively from 25' to 34' Airstreams. It didn't surprise me that the 15K unit was developed.

Jack
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Old 01-19-2004, 04:22 PM   #16
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Just as a reference point, my old Bambi had the standard 10k Penguin. At times it struggled to even cool the Bambi. When looking at the pros and cons and listening to all the warnings here about getting a unit that would be too big, I saw that the Classic 25' units had the 15k BTU A/C units as an option-- in which NO ONE could explain why the 15k unit was too big for a 25' Safari, but not too big for a 25' Classic (must be all the added luxury that takes more to cool ). Everyone less two or three folks just said it's too big without stating any fact.

To me, it seemed only natural based with my 10k unit that the 13,500 BTU units could still be a bit underpowered in the 25' units or larger in the warmest of temps. Jack's situation only made the idea even more attractive. To me it was well worth the $250 upgrade to the 15k BTU unit at the time of production. Given the fact my Safari has the same Comfort Control System and 15k BTU A/C unit installed as the Classic lines receive, I am certain I will be more than pleased with the performance in even the warmest of temperatures given how it cycles itself.

It just goes to show how folks need to listen to what others post here, but understand that you have to do your homework yourself. Had I listened to some of the folks, I'd have kept it to the standard non Climate Controlled 13.5k unit which IMHO would have been underpowered like my 10k unit was for the Bambi.

My opinon FWIW:

22' or less 13.5k BTU A/C unit
25' to 30' 15k BTU A/C unit
34'- one 15k unit up front and one 13.5k unit in back.

The only exception I can see is the 16' units. Perhaps the 10k unit might be ok there, but in direct sun, I can see the 13.5k unit doing a better job. The 16' is the wild card.....




Eric
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Old 01-19-2004, 06:37 PM   #17
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I think the thing the surprised me Eric was the heat absorbtion of the Aluminum. I never considered that my old white trailer actually reflected more heat than the silver Airstream. On that hot sunny day my new Safari was next to my old SOB at a campground in Hannibal Mo. Both trailers were the same length both had the same sized A/C units (13.5K). Both Duo-Therms, the one on my SOB was a Brisk Air, and the Penguin on the Safari. The interior on my old SOB was at least 10 degrees cooler in the full sun, 100 degree outside temp than my Safari.

I can understand the frustration in trying to size the A/C units to the length of the trailer. I have an email I received from tech support from Airstream who told me that they have no data which would give you an idea of the expected performance level of an A/C unit in a trailer. Contrary to a house in the midwest where you engineer the BTU factor to maintain a 20 difference between outside and inside air temperatures.

Personally I'm glad I did the 15K upgrade too!

Jack
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:48 AM   #18
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Jack and others, I agree with what your saying about allowing the fan to cycle on and off with the compressor so as to not reintroduce humidity. However, if we are parked in the sun on a 95 degree day, the unit will run all day anyhow. Left to its own devices, it defaults to the low fan speed and stays there until it gets to 10 degrees or so warmer in the trailer than the thermostat is calling for then switches to high. I have found that we stay much more comfortable if I manually switch to high fan before it starts getting uncomfortable. I am not trying to start a debate, just passing on my experiences.

As long as Airstream has been in business you would think they would have sense enough to use a big enough AC. I thought about adding a rear AC unit but most of the state parks that we use don't have 50 amp service. Luckily for us, we don't camp much in the summertime. When mine dies, I'll upgrade to a bigger unit if I can.

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Old 01-20-2004, 11:22 AM   #19
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Lee,
Thanks for that confirmation on the fan speed. That critical information about how the Comfort Control thermostat works when set to auto is not supplied with new trailer documentation. I had to call Duo-Therm to get something which talks about how the fan speed reacts when you are in auto mode.

Since I haven't been able to use my Classic yet I was curious about summer operation and you confirmed what I was hoping wasn't true. I can understand why at that point you need to take the unit off auto and go to the high speed setting.

Its sort of a shame that it requires that much spread. You would think that once the compressor is running and the thermostat detects that its losing ground it would kick in the high speed. Sounds much like auto is probably only good for situations where you are shaded, night time, or in situations where minimal cooling is needed.

Quite honestly I agree with your statement that once it gets hot and you are in the sun the compressor will be operating most of the time. In these cases humidity reintroduction is minimal with the fan running constantly. My issues were mostly at night or in conditions which didn't require long compressor runs.

Jack
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Old 01-20-2004, 11:38 AM   #20
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Folks,

Can I add my experiences here too. I had a Bambi with the 10K AC unit. Living in Florida, I put in a dryair dehumidifier to support the AC unit. One reason for doing this was that you can run the AC until the air seems dry but then the temperature seems to get so low it becomes uncomfortable. I set the dryair at certain percent of moisture removal and then set the AC. I experimented with different settings and depending on the temperature and humidity factor would set these accordingly. I never had any problems with keeping our Bambi comfortable even on days when the Florida Temperatures were in the high 90s and the humidity in the high 80s. The dehumidifier solution really worked for us. Especially on days when it really wasn't as hot as it was humid - the dryair unit really worked to remove the moisture while the AC cooled us to a comfortable level. I don't have any hard data as to how well the dryair unit supported and relieved the AC but just based on how comfortable the unit felt was convincing enough for us. Has anyone else had any similar experiences with dehumidifiers?

Bob
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