r-value of insulation in new ASs?

[Dillon2]

I am considering either a Flying Cloud or an International (25-27 ft range) in the next couple of years. In my searches on this forum and others I have not been able to determine exactly how much insulation - specifically the r-value - is placed in the walls, floors, and ceilings of these coaches. I know that the stuff AS uses is standard, construction grades batts and is not foam. I was just visiting a large dealer in central CA and he "guessed" that it was r-11. Can someone fill in the missing info?

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Dillon2

I am considering either a Flying Cloud or an International (25-27 ft range) in the next couple of years. In my searches on this forum and others I have not been able to determine exactly how much insulation - specifically the r-value - is placed in the walls, floors, and ceilings of these coaches. I know that the stuff AS uses is standard, construction grades batts and is not foam. I was just visiting a large dealer in central CA and he "guessed" that it was r-11. Can someone fill in the missing info?

Sorry, but the dealer did not do their homework.

There is 2 inches of fiberglass through out the trailer.

The R value is 6.3, as per insulation manuals.

Also, the fiberglass insulation that Airstream installs, "DOES NOT" have a backing of any type or kind.

Andy

[CanoeStream]

I'm betting an effective value about a third of R-11. A 3.5" fiberglass batt has an R value of 13. You're dealing with at most half of that thickness. Every metal rib is a big heat conductor. Here's my Safari in the low 20s at dawn; note the lack of frost anywhere near the ribs/rivet lines.


IMO, that significantly pulls down the average R value. Any claim of R value implies "better for the cold." There are many factors on how to manage cold weather situations.

[2airishuman]

hi dillon

welcome to the board.

shells are spun glass and NOW floors are bubble foil.

its ALL single digit R value, there is only so much that can be done in such a small gap.

newer units also have a 'thermal break' butyl tape used in the walls (between sink/ribs)

which reduces conduction THROUGH the walls, but as bob's pic shows, NOT MUCH.

with windows/vents/skylights and holes for fridge/furnace stove vent and VERY POORLY sealed doors...

a/s are NOT known for being well insulated for the EXTREMES of temperature ranges.

LOTs of discussion about this in old threads (mostly 04/05)

when there were RUMORS of different insulation in different models...

of course the rumors were wrong, but made for posting interest.

all u need is in these threads.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f249...ries-8925.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...ion-13619.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...sts-40442.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...ess-46441.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f458...load-9024.html

cheers
2air'

[Allen H]

how does AS insulation compare to other makes of trailers over all ?

[Dillon2]

The vast majority of trailer manufacturers will not indicate the type of insulation or the r-value (at least in an easily accessible manner). My guess is that they don't want to draw attention to an issue that will cause concern among prospective buyers. The only companies that provide details appear to be the ones that are above average. So Heartland says its insulation is r-7. Keystone reports that it has r-11 in the floor and the ceiling in the Passport. The only company that I have found to have r-11 in walls, floors, and ceilings has suspended production because of the bad economy (a little outfit called Oliver trailers). Since I have gotten into researching this in the last few weeks I am sure that others know more, but I have been surprised that this doesn't attract more attention.

[slowmover]

How does A/S insulation compare to other makes of trailers over all ?

Among other all-aluminum trailers Silver Streak, Avion, and Streamline were all significantly better insulated, due mainly to the double shell completely encasing the interior (underside). On my S/S it was 6" under the floor to the outer skin; partial insulation and partial air space.

Avion and Streamline both utilized spray-foam insulation by the late 1960's.

Any of these is a better candidate for winter camping, but, I wouldn't really call any of them four-season trailers.

Not long after I got mine I met a pipeline inspector who lived in his S/S in Wyoming in the winter. He was on his second after more than a half-dozen years. I have numerous posts filed from owners in the Pacific Northwest who use theirs year round.


You must keep in mind that these trailers utilized deeper and much stronger frames which raises the trailer, overall. The tanks are fully enclosed. A/S opted for semi-monococque construction to reduce height and weight, where the walls are part of the "frame", unlike the others.

A/S used to be the lightweight trailer, (Streamline beat them after awhile), and one had the best road/wind performance by design and cross-section. Sadly, those days are long past.

It would be instructive to compare weights to say, a 1968 A/S, and check the cross-section, then to a modern version. One may see where that performance went after deducting interior finish, critter comforts, tank capacities, etc.

You may find posts by Brett [?] of Timeless Travel on insulation instructive.

[Dillon2]

Thanks, everyone! This answers my question.

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by Allen H

how does AS insulation compare to other makes of trailers over all ?

IMHO on the low side if you compare to units in the same price range as an AS. Teton and Bighorn from Heartland RV are some of the best insulated SOB's. There are plenty of others that offer "Arctic" packages, that included heated and enclosed tanks, double pane windows etc.

Aaron

[Skater]

Originally Posted by Dillon2

Since I have gotten into researching this in the last few weeks I am sure that others know more, but I have been surprised that this doesn't attract more attention.

It doesn't attract much attention because it doesn't directly hit the wallets of campers: for most people, campgrounds charge a flat fee for the site regardless of how much you use in utilities. (Usually, if you stay at monthly rates, you have metered electric, but by and large weekend campers don't have to worry about that.)

There is some "direct impact" from the propane, but even that's not that expensive, and it only affects the people that camp in the cold weather frequently. For me, I try to conserve propane as much as possible because it's such a headache to get more in the B-van; if I run out in the middle of the trip, I pretty much have to rip up my campsite and secure everything in the camper to go get more, which is the last thing I want to do.

However, I've always heard that Airstream furnaces are usually installed such that they will help heat water lines and holding tanks. The holding tanks part is most definitely not true in my B-van (they're in the back, underneath), but the furnace does have a second vent in the bathroom, which is where most of the water lines in the camper are...

[Dillon2]

The reason I thought that it would attract more attention reflects my anticipated use of the trailer. I want to spend time in many locations (parks and national forests) where hook-ups may be unavailable. In those circumstances the power to run the AC or the furnace blower is limited, even with a generator, and more insulation could make the difference between staying one or two days and a week. I realize that if most trailer owners don't camp in this manner very often then you are right they wouldn't care. But if that is the case wouldn't a niche market open up to address those who do go where hookups aren't available?

[Gene]

Windows and ceiling penetrations are a big source of heat or cooling loss. I suspect they matter more than the walls. We have used a product called Reflectix to reduce that. It looks like bubble wrap covered with aluminum foil on each side. You can attach it to windows, fan openings and the skylight with Velcro. It's available at RV stores and Lowe's.

Since Airstreams leak a lot, the fiberglass gets wet, probably clumps, grows mold and becomes even less efficient as an insulator.

There are, as already noted, brands that are sold as four season trailers. Arctic Fox is one.

We have stayed up to 3 nights boondocking and have survived heat and cold reasonably well. We could have stayed longer, but there were places to go down the road. Water is also a limiting factor, mainly the grey water tank fills pretty quickly unless you are very, very careful. The trailer does get quite hot when it's hot outside, even with fans running and windows open and depending how much it cools down outside, the trailer may cool down at night. A solar panel helps to recharge the batteries to run fans and furnace, but a generator may be necessary too. It also helps to avoid climate extremes—don't boondock in Death Valley in summer, or winter in Yukon Terr., for example.

Gene

[slowmover]

We did camp in both 105F heat and 20F cold. Silver Streak offered, but our trailer did not come with, interior storm windows which would have been a help in both. We had custom curtains made that helped, and I considered having those storm windows made. We DID make custom "plugs" for skylights, etc. That was highly significant, as was chasing down gaps near doors, etc. In short, one must examine EVERY penetration.

While a generator would "extend the envelope" one is limited by it's power and durability, not to mention fuel consumption. Between oil changes and other necessary service, most generators are rather light duty. Not what one would expect to run constantly for weeks. Choose carefully.

Using the stove and oven to cook dinner was great in cold weather. I wish there were a summer equivalent.

[Bluto]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Windows and ceiling penetrations are a big source of heat or cooling loss. I suspect they matter more than the walls. We have used a product called Reflectix to reduce that. It looks like bubble wrap covered with aluminum foil on each side. You can attach it to windows, fan openings and the skylight with Velcro. It's available at RV stores and Lowe's.

Since Airstreams leak a lot, the fiberglass gets wet, probably clumps, grows mold and becomes even less efficient as an insulator.

There are, as already noted, brands that are sold as four season trailers. Arctic Fox is one.

We have stayed up to 3 nights boondocking and have survived heat and cold reasonably well. We could have stayed longer, but there were places to go down the road. Water is also a limiting factor, mainly the grey water tank fills pretty quickly unless you are very, very careful. The trailer does get quite hot when it's hot outside, even with fans running and windows open and depending how much it cools down outside, the trailer may cool down at night. A solar panel helps to recharge the batteries to run fans and furnace, but a generator may be necessary too. It also helps to avoid climate extremes—don't boondock in Death Valley in summer, or winter in Yukon Terr., for example.

Gene

Gene, You say Airstreams leak a lot. Are you refering to the newer ones? Knock on wood, but I have never experienced that problem with my '87'.
Is it a common problem?

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Bluto

Gene, You say Airstreams leak a lot. Are you refering to the newer ones? Knock on wood, but I have never experienced that problem with my '87'.
Is it a common problem?

It is with the newer ones. In 2 years we have had at least 5 leaks—skylight, front and back windows, one side window, have all leaked at least once. Scotty in Oregon traded his new trailer (maybe '08) for another one because no one could stop the leaks.

Any caulk will eventually fail, so just wait. Everyone gets their turn.

Gene

[CanoeStream]

I want to give a shout-out to the broad and valuable input of Silvertwinkie at AIR. He noticed the fine print (that being CYA phrasing IMO) about Airstream suggesting owners are liable for checking potential leaks. http://www.airforums.com/forums/f456...his-47043.html

I had a window and bathroom vent leak fixed under warranty. At about 3 years we had a new leak at the junction of our front & wing window -- turned out it was a small caulking defect at the end of the upper rail to which the middle rockguard attaches -- easy to fix with a small dab of Sikaflex 221.

I'm planning on doing a leak tuneup with a Sealtech at about the 5 year point. Google Sealtech .. or use soldiermedic at a rally if you're in the midwest.

Suggestions -
search the forum on sealtech
2airishuman's posts on use of Acryl-R for laps between exterior sheets( search google on: acryl-r site:www:airforums.com )
Sikaflex 221 ( search google on: "sikaflex 221" site:www.airforums.com )
search the forum on parbond

I'm smug because I'm lucky enough not to have a skylight...

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

It is with the newer ones. In 2 years we have had at least 5 leaks—skylight, front and back windows, one side window, have all leaked at least once. Scotty in Oregon traded his new trailer (maybe '08) for another one because no one could stop the leaks.

Any caulk will eventually fail, so just wait. Everyone gets their turn.

Gene

Gene.

Not quite.

Airstream has been using Vulkem for over 40 years.

Whenever it's applied properly, it stays, accidents excluded.

Removing sheet metal from an Airstream that had Vulkem installed on the backside, still requires "cutting" the sealer in order to remove a segment, quarter panel or side sheets.

A Vulkem seal can be destroyed however, by excessive vibration to the coach.

It's also good enough, that it's being used in a white version, to complete the installation of Vinyl framed, low "E" home type windows.

Andy

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Gene.

Whenever it's applied properly, it stays, accidents excluded.

Andy, what if it's not applied properly at the factory?

Gene

[Bluto]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

It is with the newer ones. In 2 years we have had at least 5 leaks—skylight, front and back windows, one side window, have all leaked at least once. Scotty in Oregon traded his new trailer (maybe '08) for another one because no one could stop the leaks.

Any caulk will eventually fail, so just wait. Everyone gets their turn.

Gene

That's a bummer.

Andy brings up a good point about repaired panels, etc. Could that be part of the problem on your unit? I'm real interested in this subject, although it's off topic, because I've been thinking about stepping up to a new model in the near future, but I'm on the fence about doing it. Been on the fence for about a year now and will probably wait until I hear about some good quality workmanship coming out of Jackson Center. Between aluminum corrosion and now leaky windows who would want to put down all that money?
Sorry just thinking aloud!

[Gene]

My rear panoramic center window was one of the leakers. For that one, fixed at the JC service center, they had to remove the trim inside and scrape out all the original sealant and then apply new sealant all the way around over and over, pushing in each bead until the space was filled. This is a labor intensive job. Materials are cheap. I would guess in the factory they don't take the time to do it right. Other places the bead around the outside of the windows had small pinholes or voids in it where the bead wasn't checked properly after installation. The skylight was screwed down too tightly and cracked. The fan covers on the outside had to be resealed.

Sealing anything is labor intensive and has to be done very carefully. Anyone who has done it knows how unappealing a job it is. Sometimes a bead when drying separates or was too thin to start with and has to be filled. Someone should go back a day or two later and go over all the sealants. Complaints about leaking trailers are common on this Forum and indicate a problem at the factory with QC.

I believe the word "Vulkem" has become generic for any sealer, but now the factory uses a product called Sikaflex. It comes in different colors and types for different applications. There is an acrylic sealant also used but right now I can't remember if it is a Sikaflex product. All these are available through Airstream on their website where it describes what to use where. We carry tubes of this stuff and a caulking gun with us as leaks happen when traveling. Next I need to get a collapsible ladder to get on top since I can't jump that high.

Gene