|
12-16-2010, 01:28 PM
|
#1
|
3 Rivet Member
1959 24' Tradewind
The Grass Capital of the World
, Oregon
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 174
|
best gas furnace for 24' Tradewind?
Hello experts - it's winter and I need a heater. My "As-Is" 24' Tradewind didn't come with a furnace.
My preference is to use propane - I'll be boondocking in temps down to 20F. (think West Coast ski-lodge parking lot - any colder and I'll drive down the mountain and keep heading south until warmer!)
I'd like to stay away from pilot light furnaces if possible (prefer a catalytic converter, which I guess technically has a pilot light, but seems safer) since I have a drafty old trailer and would hate to off myself in sleep or by lighting a match in the morning.
I have a furnace opening that's approx 12"x40"(ish). I'll also need to put the fridge next to it (when I get one) so a taller heater is preferred.
There is so much info to sift through on these forums, I'm getting lost in the details. Can someone please point me towards the simple basics of installing a furnace and maybe recommend a solid, economical, and safe furnace for this purpose?
Many thanks.
|
|
|
12-16-2010, 02:21 PM
|
#2
|
Wise Elder
2010 30' Classic
Vintage Kin Owner
South of the river
, Minnesota
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,169
|
Current production furnaces do not use a pilot light.
Look at furnaces rated for approximately 30,000 BTU from Atwood or Suburban.
RV Furnaces, Heaters and Parts
There are other suppliers; shop around.
You'll need ductwork, and chances are that you'll have to make some adjustments to the wall and floor because the sizes have changed over the years.
Catalytic heaters are not believed to be as safe as furnaces.
|
|
|
12-16-2010, 03:16 PM
|
#3
|
Rivet Master
2008 27' Classic FB
1959 22' Flying Cloud
fairview
, New Mexico
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 575
|
This propane heater is also an alternative Newport Propane Fireplace Heater
__________________
Avion C11
1959 Flying Cloud 1969 Tradewind
1973 Safari
1983 34 ft Limited
2004 F250 superduty ext cab
2014 F350 longbed superduty crewcab
|
|
|
12-16-2010, 03:17 PM
|
#4
|
Rivet Master
1968 24' Tradewind
Oxford,
, Mississippi
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,564
|
If you call the customer service department at the Suburban factory in Tennessee ( you can google the number), they will be able to tell you which model will fit your application. The service tech I spoke with on a couple of occasions was extremely helpful. I decided to go with a catalytic in my Trade Wind to save space under the cabinet and because in Mississippi we don't get that much really cold weather.
__________________
__________________
Bruce & Rachel
__________________
68 Trade Wind
2001 Toyota Tundra
|
|
|
12-16-2010, 03:35 PM
|
#5
|
Rivet Master
1965 22' Safari
Vassar
, Michigan
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 848
|
I installed a Suburban NT30 in my 22' Safari and I'm very glad I did. When it is really cold it is so nice to have a powerful furnace that will warm up the trailer in a hurry.
__________________
Tim
TAC MI 14
Everyday is a Saturday
|
|
|
12-16-2010, 04:43 PM
|
#6
|
3 Rivet Member
1959 24' Tradewind
The Grass Capital of the World
, Oregon
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 174
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Current production furnaces do not use a pilot light.
Look at furnaces rated for approximately 30,000 BTU from Atwood or Suburban.
Catalytic heaters are not believed to be as safe as furnaces.
|
Thanks for the link. Why are catalytic heaters not believed to be as safe as furnaces?
|
|
|
12-16-2010, 05:39 PM
|
#7
|
Rivet Master
1971 25' Tradewind
1993 34' Excella
Currently Looking...
Estancia
, New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,742
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceEgg
Thanks for the link. Why are catalytic heaters not believed to be as safe as furnaces?
|
Catalytic heaters are not vented and give off some combustion gases. You have to use at least a slightly opened window to keep them safe.
__________________
Sail on silver girl. Sail on by. Your time has come to shine.
|
|
|
12-16-2010, 07:01 PM
|
#8
|
Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
Princeton
, New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,070
|
If there is a choice between 2 sizes chose the smaller one. That way the heater will stay only for a longer duty cycle. Heater blow cold air at the beginning and end of each cycle and this can be a pain. By having a smaller heater you will cut down on the number of cycles and thus the cold air
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles
|
|
|
12-16-2010, 07:31 PM
|
#9
|
Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
|
I use a SF-20 Suburban furnace in my '59 TW. Works great, but I don't know if it is the right form factor for your needs. Fits where the original International was located.
|
|
|
12-17-2010, 04:53 AM
|
#10
|
4 Rivet Member
1960 24' Tradewind
St. Albans
, Vermont
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 308
|
I hear there are "vented" cat heaters. I read about one here on the airforums but I can't seem to locate it for you!
|
|
|
12-17-2010, 05:49 AM
|
#11
|
Rivet Master
1958 26' Overlander
Mesa
, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,742
|
There are pros and cons associated with both the forced air furnace and cat heater. The main benefit of forced air heaters and the associated ducting is that they blow the warm air throughout the trailer including the holding tanks underneath the floor. This prevents the tanks from freezing. But since your tanks are above the floor this isn't an issue. You can go either way for your application but know that the cat heater radiates the heat in one direction only. If you want to move the heat you'll need to get yourself a small 12v or 110v fan, depending on your situation.
Since you're dealing with sub 32 degree temps it would probably be better to get a forced air furnace. Does your Trade Wind have any ducting? The big negative with forced air furnaces is that they use lots of propane and will drain your batteries. Will you have access to 110v service to keep your batteries charged?
Safety is paramount when using either heater, so ensure you have a working propane leak detector and CO detector.
Good luck!
__________________
1958 Overlander
2011 Wolf Creek 850N TC
2011 Ford F-250 Crewcab (6.2L), 3.73RE
WBCCI #5661/AIR #5661/TAC # AZ-6
4CU 1st VP
My '58 Overlander Restoration and Travel Blog:
https://mellomikesairstreams.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
12-17-2010, 07:57 AM
|
#12
|
Wise Elder
2010 30' Classic
Vintage Kin Owner
South of the river
, Minnesota
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,169
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceEgg
Thanks for the link. Why are catalytic heaters not believed to be as safe as furnaces?
|
Furnaces have a heat exchanger. Essentially, it's a metal wall -- the fire is on one side, with a fresh air vent and exhaust vent both leading outside the trailer. A fan blows interior trailer air across the other side of the wall.
Catalytic heaters don't have a heat exchanger. Instead, they have a catalytic pad that is designed to be sure the gas burns completely. There is no fresh air vent, and no exhaust vent. The exhaust goes right into the living area inside the trailer. All combustion processes produce some carbon monoxide, which is toxic. New catalytic heaters don't produce much. Over the course of years, the catalyst degrades so the amount of carbon monoxide produced goes up.
Also, they reduce the amount of oxygen in the air in the trailer. You're supposed to leave a window open.
Now, I don't know about you, but I camp in my trailer. A lot. Under all kinds of circumstances. And because of that, there are going to be days when I am in my trailer on a cold day when I am really, really, sick, and not in possession of my usual mental faculties. And there are going to be days when someone besides me is in the trailer by themselves. Parents, kids, friends, who knows. So I don't want a trailer that is safe only when proper procedures are followed. I don't want safety to depend on someone opening a window. And I don't want to have so little heat that someone, stuck in the trailer on a cold windy day, decides that well maybe the best choice is to leave a couple of stove burners on all night.
We have a thread on alternatives to catalytic heaters that focuses on heaters suitable for boondocking, that is, that require no electricity or very little electricity.
And we have a thread on permanently installed electric heat which is alternative to catalytic heaters for people who mostly stay in campgrounds or other sites with electricity. With 30 amp service you can run up to 3000 watts of electric heat and still have power for the fridge and converter. That's just over 10,000 BTU/h, slightly larger than most catalytic heaters.
|
|
|
12-17-2010, 08:52 AM
|
#13
|
Rivet Master
1958 26' Overlander
Mesa
, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,742
|
If catalytic heaters were as unsafe as Jammer makes them sound, they wouldn't be on the market and this in a legal climate where lawyers circle like hawks over any sign of liability.
But Jammer does bring up a good point. If you have access to 110v, electric heaters are an excellent option. We store 2 portable electric heaters in our ottoman. We use these if we are camping where 110v service is available. They work great and throw off lots of heat.
__________________
1958 Overlander
2011 Wolf Creek 850N TC
2011 Ford F-250 Crewcab (6.2L), 3.73RE
WBCCI #5661/AIR #5661/TAC # AZ-6
4CU 1st VP
My '58 Overlander Restoration and Travel Blog:
https://mellomikesairstreams.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
12-17-2010, 09:58 AM
|
#14
|
3 Rivet Member
1965 20' Globetrotter
1955 22' Safari
Butte
, Montana
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 145
|
Olympian wave heater
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceEgg
Hello experts - it's winter and I need a heater. My "As-Is" 24' Tradewind didn't come with a furnace.
My preference is to use propane - I'll be boondocking in temps down to 20F. (think West Coast ski-lodge parking lot - any colder and I'll drive down the mountain and keep heading south until warmer!)
I'd like to stay away from pilot light furnaces if possible (prefer a catalytic converter, which I guess technically has a pilot light, but seems safer) since I have a drafty old trailer and would hate to off myself in sleep or by lighting a match in the morning.
I have a furnace opening that's approx 12"x40"(ish). I'll also need to put the fridge next to it (when I get one) so a taller heater is preferred.
There is so much info to sift through on these forums, I'm getting lost in the details. Can someone please point me towards the simple basics of installing a furnace and maybe recommend a solid, economical, and safe furnace for this purpose?
Many thanks.
|
The replacement heater for my Olympian Wave 6 has worked. I lived in my airstream in the Colorado mountains during September. I always had heat. I also purchased the dust cover for it. The heat pad is sensitive to dust and can fail. Hopefully the heater will continue to work. Make sure you have a window & vent cracked. The heater takes oxygen. Also, Make sure you have a CO2 detector and propane detector.
The advantage to catalyc is that it has no fan and doesn't drain the battery. Good for Boondocking.
|
|
|
12-17-2010, 11:33 AM
|
#15
|
Rivet Master
2005 22' Safari
Hyde Park Place
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 973
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by mello mike
If catalytic heaters were as unsafe as Jammer makes them sound, they wouldn't be on the market and this in a legal climate where lawyers circle like hawks over any sign of liability.
|
They're usually used in sheds, garages or outdoors. Some people use them in SOB trailers that are very different to Airstreams because Airstreams are notoriously airtight. (I just wish they were as watertight!)
The bottom line is that all combustion, catalytic or otherwise, releases some carbon monoxide.
There are many toxic gasses, and CO can't really be described as "toxic". The way it works is that you inhale the CO, and the haemoglobin in your blood cells binds to it as readily as to oxygen. It binds just like oxygen, but it's a little harder to let go. As time passes, less and less of your haemoglobin is available to carry oxygen as it gets increasingly blocked by the CO.
The individual won't smell or taste anything. They will eventually gain a flushed appearance. People who die of CO poisoning are not blue as described in the movies and TV shows - they're bright pink and very flushed. They will have a feeling of well-being and complacency. They will slip into unconsciousness and death without knowing it.
Catalytic heaters give off almost entirely radiant heat. This means they do not heat the air, they heat the objects before them that the infra-red rays hit and are absorbed by. For this reason, it is a lot less noticeable to crack a window at each end of the trailer by 1/4" to allow circulation of the air, venting of the CO and replenishment of oxygen.
Failure to do so will result in your untimely death unless the enclosure is at least a little leaky - it's just that in most situations it takes longer than you might normally use the heater, or the enclosure is more leaky than you believe it to be.
The poster above who says they'd rather other's safety not depend on knowledge of correct operation seems to have it right. Either buy a catalytic heater with clear warnings printed on it, or write them on it, or don't use one.
During 1999-2004, CO poisoning was listed as a contributing cause of death on 16,447 death certificates in the United States. Of these, 16,400 (99.7%) deaths occurred among U.S. residents inside the United States, and 2,631 (16%) were classified as both unintentional and non--fire-related deaths. For the period 1999--2004, an average of 439 persons died annually from unintentional, non--fire-related CO poisoning (range: 400 in 1999 to 473 in 2003). The annual average age-adjusted death rate in the U.S. was 1.5 deaths per million persons. Death rates were highest for adults aged >65 years and for men. The average daily number of CO-related deaths was greatest during the months of January (2.07 deaths) and December (1.97 deaths) and lowest during the months of July (0.67 deaths) and August (0.67 deaths). For the period 1999--2004, a total of 35 states had sufficient numbers of CO-related deaths to calculate reliable mortality rates. The state with the highest reliable CO mortality rate was Nebraska, and the state with the lowest reliable rate was California. Here's a handy chart.
So basically, if you're a white male over 65 years, watch out! CO's coming after you like a cheap horror movie.
(When I was in college, I had to work with a cadaver of an individual who died of CO poisoning - though from a water heater with an obstructed flue. The rosy coloration of the skin was unlike any cadaver I have seen before or since.)
__________________
TX-16
|
|
|
12-17-2010, 03:37 PM
|
#16
|
Rivet Master
2008 27' Classic FB
1959 22' Flying Cloud
fairview
, New Mexico
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 575
|
The real danger is not the CO. The real danger is the O2 used by the heater. a 1000 BTU heter will use up 2 cubic ft of O2 at 20% O2 in the air in 1 hour. As the O2 level goes down the combustion deteriorates an it becomes less effective and more hydrocarbons are released.The lack of oxygen is the real danger. You do need some air circulation to be safe.
__________________
Avion C11
1959 Flying Cloud 1969 Tradewind
1973 Safari
1983 34 ft Limited
2004 F250 superduty ext cab
2014 F350 longbed superduty crewcab
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|