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11-18-2017, 04:49 AM
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#101
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Rivet Master
2020 28' Flying Cloud
Upper St Clair
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,943
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Running with fridge on for about 45 years, father and mother prior to that for about 20 years. Nothing. There were fires and recalls way back on the Norcold? line of three ways but not sure the number etc.
Bud
__________________
2020 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2021 F350 6.7 King Ranch
USAF Master Training Instructor (TI) & (MTI)- 68-72
Volunteer K9 Rehabilitator & Trainer
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11-18-2017, 07:59 AM
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#102
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,685
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Hi
Ok, so you now have an all electrical system, no more propane. Does that system have relays in it? Are those relays explosion proof? I'd bet *several* cases of beer (delivered ) that they are not explosion proof relays. Spend time in a factory where they have neat things like blast walls. There are places with a lot more risk that a gas station. You will find that there are a *lot* of potential ignition sources they have worried about. It's not just flame that matters ....
The risk of an ignition source being present never goes to zero with something like a car or an RV involved.
Bob
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11-18-2017, 08:38 AM
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#103
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari FB SE
Spokane
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halfloaf
...it may catch on fire on the road - RV refrigerator fires happen. ...(we've all seen the videos of burning refrigerators and pictures of the scorch marks on the walls behind old refrigerators ...
Turning off the refrigerator while moving for many people, myself included, isn't on that list because that risk analysis includes spoiled food and a greater loss due to inconveniences, and because there is nothing about motion that increases the risk. If one were going to keep it off while moving, one might as well keep it off while stationary, and just not have a refrigerator at all.
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I agree with your final paragraph listed above. I believe we are on the same page here.
When trying to make your point you state that "RV refrigerator fires happen" and "we've all seen the videos of burning refrigerators". I have not seen these videos and would love to see one. Don't post a video of a burning motor home or trailer expecting me to agree that the cause was a faulty fridge. I have seen many of these but I still would like to see some actual proof that a propane fridge started a fire. After a dozen years and more than 50,000 miles of towing with my fridge running I have yet to experience or see with my own little eyes or even read about a single case of a fridge catching fire while on the road, or even at a gas station for that matter.
Even though I firmly believe that the odds of this happening are so small as to not warrant much concern, I also realize that this probably has happened at least once...somewhere......sometime.......
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11-18-2017, 09:19 AM
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#104
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4 Rivet Member
1972 31' Excella 500
2017 30' Classic
Grapeview
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paiceman
Running with fridge on for about 45 years, father and mother prior to that for about 20 years. Nothing. There were fires and recalls way back on the Norcold? line of three ways but not sure the number etc.
Bud
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Hello Bud, being you have a 2017 Classic and so do we. Question for you. Have you had issue running on propane while traveling? We have tried this and for some reason the propane appears to not work while driving. Spoke w/the dealer, their thoughts were the moving air while driving getting into "louvered" door is enough to stop the compressor from cooling. My understanding is on propane the refer should cool faster than on electrical? When we travel say for a 3 hour period the temp of the refer raise about 10 degree's. What are your thoughts? Greatly appreciated.
Safe travels
__________________
Scott & Liz
2017 Classic
2016 RAM 3500 6.7
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11-18-2017, 09:32 AM
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#105
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3 Rivet Member
2017 26' Flying Cloud
High Point
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 196
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This inspired me to go research this...although I could not find a single case of a fridge igniting a fire like at a gas station, there's tons of examples of fridges going up in flames for a multitude of other reasons. Electrical fault and ruptured propane lines the most common. HOWEVER, One article that caught my eye is that despite what the manufacturers say about traveling with it running, it was shown that spending 10-15 minutes on a 6% grade was enough to overheat the units and do damage that could result in fire....that got me thinking..
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11-18-2017, 11:30 AM
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#106
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Rivet Master
2006 23' Safari SE
I'm In
, Kentucky
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
So, all that said:
NFPA from 2011 claims that there are 5,200 gas station fires in the US in a typical year. That's based on calls to fire departments. Since this really is "fires called in by (or at) gas stations" the fire could be from a traffic accident in front of the station.
Slightly over half are vehicle fires. 28% of vehicle fires involve gasoline as the first thing ignited. Going through their math, that's about 888 fires per year for gasoline + vehicles. Of those, 159 do not start with passenger vehicles. There is no (obvious) data on how many vehicle fires started in service bays vs at the pumps.
We set about 100 gas stations on fire a week. We have roughly 3 fires a week that *might* involve something like an RV and gasoline in some way. Obviously the "not passenger vehicle" group covers a *lot* of things ....
There are roughly 160,000 gas stations in the US. We set 3% of them on fire each year (assuming no duplicates). We set them on fire a lot of ways, most of those ways don't involve gasoline at all....
Bob
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Nice research, Bob. Thanks
__________________
-Rich
Rich & Yvonne
2006 Safari SE -Dora-
2004 4Runner SE 4.7L V8
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11-18-2017, 04:14 PM
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#107
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Rivet Master
1991 25' Excella
2011 19' Flying Cloud
Santa Ynez
, California
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,185
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We were in a gas station in Mojave Ca. getting fuel with sob trailer in tow, next island over a driver thinks they are done fueling and drives off with the pump nozzle still in the tank filler of their car, rips the hose off the pump and spews gas everywere before the automatic shut down kicks in and stops all pumps.
No fires but we got out of there pronto!
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
Will Rogers
Alan
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11-18-2017, 06:29 PM
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#108
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1 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Battle Ground
, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 14
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The old men and the elephant...
This thread is a classic. Plenty of ardent testimonials, and little recognition of the real issue. First, I will say that I would NEVER travel with a propane valve on, period. That is based on 40 years of towing, and 30 years of professional firefighting/EMS. We plan our towing travel days so that the fridge stays closed, and lunch is available in a cooler. Simple. As for the hazards, propane is a fuel, not an ignition source. While leaving the fridge running while fueling is certainly a hazard at an island that dispenses flammable (fuming) liquids like gasoline (thus the blanket prohibition), the fridge's open flame is the ignition source. So is the igniter, if you just turn off the valve, but leave the appliance "hunting for fuel" on auto. But my biggest concern about traveling with an open propane valve is a wreck- the black iron pipe that carries propane from your tanks to your appliances is brittle, and can be broken easily in even a modest accident. If a tank valve is on, all those lines are charged. If you are entrapped or incapacitated in a wreck, the last thing you need is a free-flowing flammable gas and an ignition source. Such a situation not only endangers you, but other occupants and vehicles involved in the wreck. In addition to those mentioned above, ignition sources are quite common on accident scenes- trust me.
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11-18-2017, 06:30 PM
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#109
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
1963 26' Overlander
1961 26' Overlander
Central
, Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rfriebele
This inspired me to go research this...it was shown that spending 10-15 minutes on a 6% grade was enough to overheat the units and do damage that could result in fire....that got me thinking..
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Can you share this info? At highway speeds that's 5000' climb in 15 miles. Seems like several long interstate grades would have RV carnage at the top. Or, :15 minutes parked un level. I guess I understand 'could' because I watch the show Oak Island...'Could it be'....but so far 'could' hasn't registered as 'is'
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11-18-2017, 07:19 PM
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#110
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3 Rivet Member
2017 26' Flying Cloud
High Point
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV
Can you share this info? At highway speeds that's 5000' climb in 15 miles. Seems like several long interstate grades would have RV carnage at the top. Or, :15 minutes parked un level. I guess I understand 'could' because I watch the show Oak Island...'Could it be'....but so far 'could' hasn't registered as 'is'
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It's a company that sells safety gizmos..
I included a link to the section I referred to. They don't claim there will be fire while traveling on a grade but that overheating can occur causing cumulative damage that could lead to fire. I think it's worth noting...
https://www.arprv.com/damage-rv-fridge.php
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11-19-2017, 08:13 AM
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#111
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbowman
Hello Bud, being you have a 2017 Classic and so do we. Question for you. Have you had issue running on propane while traveling? We have tried this and for some reason the propane appears to not work while driving. Spoke w/the dealer, their thoughts were the moving air while driving getting into "louvered" door is enough to stop the compressor from cooling. My understanding is on propane the refer should cool faster than on electrical? When we travel say for a 3 hour period the temp of the refer raise about 10 degree's. What are your thoughts? Greatly appreciated.
Safe travels
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Hi
We have had zero issues with the fridge in the 2017 30' Classic running on propane while chugging down the road.
As mentioned above, there is an issue with grades. The missing point is the "parked on" that usually goes before that phrase. Put another way, shaking / bumping / rattling / vibrating down the road, grades pretty much don't matter. The rocking back and forth breaks up any gas blockages. If you find yourself parked in traffic on a grade (it happens) then eventually the coil will gas block. Is that for 15 minutes or for an hour? That part is very much "that depends" ...
What happens when the coil gas blocks? In some designs the propane comes on and stays on forever. Eventually this can be a problem. Consider what happens when you start up normally. The fridge reads "to hot" and you come back in 12 hours to find it *maybe* is cold enough. That's normal operation and the propane likely has been on most of that time. A few hours on "full blast" is pretty normal for an RV fridge ....
Bob
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11-19-2017, 08:48 AM
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#112
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3 Rivet Member
2017 26' Flying Cloud
High Point
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDA
This thread is a classic. Plenty of ardent testimonials, and little recognition of the real issue. First, I will say that I would NEVER travel with a propane valve on, period. That is based on 40 years of towing, and 30 years of professional firefighting/EMS. We plan our towing travel days so that the fridge stays closed, and lunch is available in a cooler. Simple. As for the hazards, propane is a fuel, not an ignition source. While leaving the fridge running while fueling is certainly a hazard at an island that dispenses flammable (fuming) liquids like gasoline (thus the blanket prohibition), the fridge's open flame is the ignition source. So is the igniter, if you just turn off the valve, but leave the appliance "hunting for fuel" on auto. But my biggest concern about traveling with an open propane valve is a wreck- the black iron pipe that carries propane from your tanks to your appliances is brittle, and can be broken easily in even a modest accident. If a tank valve is on, all those lines are charged. If you are entrapped or incapacitated in a wreck, the last thing you need is a free-flowing flammable gas and an ignition source. Such a situation not only endangers you, but other occupants and vehicles involved in the wreck. In addition to those mentioned above, ignition sources are quite common on accident scenes- trust me.
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Wow...first I've heard a precaution like that, yet I can't help wonder what the degree of danger is that exists one way vs the other. All vehicles are rolling with loaded fuel that could release in a collision and there are numerous cities with running propane or bottled gas powered vehicles. So, do you know if there are different requirements allowed for RVs vs gas powered vehicle systems that make them more a hazard? For example, would a propane powered bus be allowed to use the Bay Bridge Tunnel where RVs are required to close their tanks before entering? Just curious....and still on the RV learning curve.
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11-19-2017, 09:07 AM
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#113
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari FB SE
Spokane
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rfriebele
It's a company that sells safety gizmos..
I included a link to the section I referred to. They don't claim there will be fire while traveling on a grade but that overheating can occur causing cumulative damage that could lead to fire. I think it's worth noting...
https://www.arprv.com/damage-rv-fridge.php
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And....this....is your typical advertising targeted at someone's fear. It just so happens that this company will sell you a device to keep you safe. Making a statement like this, even if partially true, is how they sell their products. Before I laid out my hard earned cash I would research this issue. I think you will find that motion while moving down the road actually aids the circulation of the coolant. This is why they talk at great lengths about leveling your trailer while camped. There is no need to do this when you are moving.
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11-19-2017, 09:25 AM
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#114
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari FB SE
Spokane
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDA
This thread is a classic. Plenty of ardent testimonials, and little recognition of the real issue. First, I will say that I would NEVER travel with a propane valve on, period. That is based on 40 years of towing, and 30 years of professional firefighting/EMS. We plan our towing travel days so that the fridge stays closed, and lunch is available in a cooler. Simple. As for the hazards, propane is a fuel, not an ignition source. While leaving the fridge running while fueling is certainly a hazard at an island that dispenses flammable (fuming) liquids like gasoline (thus the blanket prohibition), the fridge's open flame is the ignition source. So is the igniter, if you just turn off the valve, but leave the appliance "hunting for fuel" on auto. But my biggest concern about traveling with an open propane valve is a wreck- the black iron pipe that carries propane from your tanks to your appliances is brittle, and can be broken easily in even a modest accident. If a tank valve is on, all those lines are charged. If you are entrapped or incapacitated in a wreck, the last thing you need is a free-flowing flammable gas and an ignition source. Such a situation not only endangers you, but other occupants and vehicles involved in the wreck. In addition to those mentioned above, ignition sources are quite common on accident scenes- trust me.
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I certainly appreciate your experience as stated. The whole ignition source and fuel proximity is something you can't argue. I get your position and I think that it is best that you carry along an ice box for your lunch. We all need to do what we need to do to keep us comfortable.
Fire is a "real issue" and I recognize that. My point is that you also need to recognize the probability of such an occurrence happening. Many bad things can happen when you tow your trailer down the road. We make decisions about likely events and try to prevent them. Things with high probability need to be addressed and those with much lower don't need the same level of concern. Propane refrigerators do not spontaneously combust, but they could. Again, how many times has this happened? Almost never by my research. If you want to get worked up, take a look at general highway accidents. The only way to prevent these is to stay home.
Also, as I understand, modern propane tanks have OPD valves that shut down when a line is broken. But, they still are attached to your trailer and if they are damaged then you would really have a fire to deal with. Perhaps the only way to positively avoid this catastrophy would be to leave them at home. Pretty silly argument, I agree. These type of statements are continually posted by those who have little recognition of probability.
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11-19-2017, 09:25 AM
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#115
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Mantua
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,062
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I thought that if the lpg lines broke that the safety valve on the tank would stop the gas flow. Am i mistaken? I watched a fire burn totally under and around tanks with no damage.
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11-19-2017, 09:28 AM
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#116
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3 Rivet Member
2017 26' Flying Cloud
High Point
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aftermath
And....this....is your typical advertising targeted at someone's fear. It just so happens that this company will sell you a device to keep you safe. Making a statement like this, even if partially true, is how they sell their products. Before I laid out my hard earned cash I would research this issue. I think you will find that motion while moving down the road actually aids the circulation of the coolant. This is why they talk at great lengths about leveling your trailer while camped. There is no need to do this when you are moving.
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Yeah... sales pitch. I just found it interesting, the time THEY claim it takes to overheat a fridge out of level on a continous grade. Most manuals say 30 minutes or more (?)....if it were really that bad, I spose either everyone would have one of their devices or the fridge companies would be replacing units with updated manuals...
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11-19-2017, 09:31 AM
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#117
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Mantua
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,062
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Just remember, the sky is not falling or we would all already be dead!
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11-19-2017, 09:34 AM
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#118
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Len and Jeanne
2005 16' International CCD
2015 19' Flying Cloud
Creston Valley
, British Columbia
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDA
This thread is a classic. Plenty of ardent testimonials, and little recognition of the real issue. First, I will say that I would NEVER travel with a propane valve on, period. That is based on 40 years of towing, and 30 years of professional firefighting/EMS. We plan our towing travel days so that the fridge stays closed, and lunch is available in a cooler. Simple. As for the hazards, propane is a fuel, not an ignition source. While leaving the fridge running while fueling is certainly a hazard at an island that dispenses flammable (fuming) liquids like gasoline (thus the blanket prohibition), the fridge's open flame is the ignition source. So is the igniter, if you just turn off the valve, but leave the appliance "hunting for fuel" on auto. But my biggest concern about traveling with an open propane valve is a wreck- the black iron pipe that carries propane from your tanks to your appliances is brittle, and can be broken easily in even a modest accident. If a tank valve is on, all those lines are charged. If you are entrapped or incapacitated in a wreck, the last thing you need is a free-flowing flammable gas and an ignition source. Such a situation not only endangers you, but other occupants and vehicles involved in the wreck. In addition to those mentioned above, ignition sources are quite common on accident scenes- trust me.
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We're on your side.
As mentioned previously, if the chances of something going wrong are small but the consequences of something going wrong are huge, we take the precaution.
We don't leave the propane off because of ordinary driving. We leave it turned off because Accidents Will Happen. And not just to somebody else. It's like, why have RV insurance?
Bambi the First was totaled in a nasty accident. A driver a couple of cars in front of us fell asleep at the wheel, flipped her car into a utility pole, which snapped, and while still attached to live wires, clobbered our AS on the forehead, while grazing the passenger side of the truck. In some ways this was a "freak" accident, but a sleepy driver is common. I don't know what would have happened had the propane been on.
Another time in Montana a moose ran onto the road (a narrow 2-lane highway) right in front of us and nearly hit our truck before it swerved off. (Maybe not an issue for southern or city folk, but this is more common than you'd think in northern states and in Canada. Deer=same thing.) We knew someone who did hit a moose, which is about the size of a horse, and which came through her windshield. Fortunately she was all right.
The other main thing is that we just haven't found the need to leave the dang fridge turned on. At least with a newer unit, the fridge is really well insulated. We've never had anything spoil or the beer get too warm with the fridge turned off, on the road. Just freeze some cold packs or plastic water bottles at night when you're stationary, and if need be, distribute them in the fridge compartment when you drive. It works better than the average picnic cooler. Then refreeze the cold packs at night again.
When in doubt, keep a thermometer in your fridge. (Yes, I've done a FoodSafe course.)
We do sacrifice a bit on the ice cream with this system. Oh, well.
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11-19-2017, 10:10 AM
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#119
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3 Rivet Member
2017 26' Flying Cloud
High Point
, North Carolina
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 196
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This is all so helpful to me..a new owner. Important info & helpful practices that were NOT a part of the buying process, I've found here ... some are personal preferences but theres lots of experienced based knowledge that manuals don't cover...
Thanks..
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11-19-2017, 11:35 AM
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#120
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1 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Battle Ground
, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 14
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Cool... and just to address an oft-stated misconception-
Folks should know that their OPD propane tanks provide no in-use flow protection. The OPD device prevents only 2 things: overfilling (Overfill Prevention Device) and flow if the hand-tightened coupler is not firmly attached. There is no intrinsic full-flow shut off when the tank is connected to your regulator. That means that if the tank valve is open and the rubber line is ruptured or ripped away, you have full-flow propane on your hands. If the rupture occurs downstream of your regulator, you have regulated-flow propane on your hands. Some RV regulator manufacturers claim a deceleration or sudden flow-induced shut-off capability, but I don't think that is common, nor would I trust it to "keep me safe." (see above)
Unlike what is present on DOT-approved propane powered vehicles, there is no approved safety system covering you if you drive with the trailer tank valve(s) on. Seems like the ethical equivalent of driving without seat belts, or turning your passenger's airbag off.
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