Water pressure at campsite too high

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by PatLee

Two questions:
1) I have a water regulator built into my Airstream. I should have no worries regarding too high water pressure, right?
2) Don't the outside water filtering systems that are hooked with hoses to the outside water faucet and the Airstream water inlet, decrease water pressure by quite a bit?
Thanks!

1) Yes, your coach should be ok.

2) Usually water filters do restrict the flow a bit, but are not designed to protect from high pressure. Only an additional protection at the water source will protect your hose.

My Airstream manual recommends no additional regulator for water pressure as it may lower pressure too much if used in addition to the built-in regulator. However, I plan to start using one for my hose at the spigot. I figure if my water pressure in the coach gets too low, I can always remove it.


.

[harryk]

If you have a 100 lbs. pressure at the RV Park and you hook up with a so called pressure reducing valve, you have 100 lbs. on your plumbing all the time except when you are running the water .They are nothing but a washer with a small hole and the pressure on both sides is the same when not running the water. A real pressure reducing valve will dump the excess pressure and water on the ground while no water is running and stop dumping when you are running the water to maintain the set pressure.
With the pressure you are talking about, its a wonder something did not break.
In this case, running off the tank is the only way to go

[PKI]

The AS water pressure regulator is a fixed pressure unit. It also is prone to leaks as the screws that hold the assembly together loosen up over time. You may or may not see this problem, but folks have reported it.

Best solution is a cascade regulation approach. One adjustable regulator at the shore tap to directly control campground delivery pressure. The second stage is an internal adjustable regulator and pressure accumulator tank. This approach eliminates the AS OEM pressure regulator. A bulkhead feed-through is the replacement for that. Some folks have posted their installations and are just a search away. Recent extensive thread on filtration is worth investigating as well.

The single pressure regulators look nice and simple. Not a terrible approach, but replace it with an adjustable when you have spare budget. The fill the fresh tank and use the pump approach works even better if you have an accumulator tank to hold pressure for a longer period and reduce pump cycles. Maybe a specific upgrade for those off grid a lot.

Thank you all for sharing your experience. It's all part of the learning curve and not well covered until you come face to face with the issue.

Safe travels and lots of smiles. Pat

[kendrick.l.j]

PatLee, IMO, it is wise to use an additional external water pressure regulator outside (before the water gets connected to the AS). My AS supposedly has a built in regulator but like a lot of other things inside my Classic the internal regulator can fail for some reason or another. If I can prevent a problem before it gets inside I prefer to do that. Safety first. I also use a very nice external surge protector and TPMS, again, trying to prevent problems before it can damage the AS.
An external regulator is not expensive compared to the cost of water damage inside.

[rmkrum]

It is true that Airstream put a fixed 60 pound water pressure regulator in most of their products. However, it is the cheapest one they can find, it's made of plastic, and it tends to leak as the screws get loose that hold it together.

Here is what I use, right at the campground spigot, set to about 40 pounds, it also has a nice pressure gauge on it's output side:

https://www.amazon.com/Camco-40058-A...sure+regulator

I also use this elbow at the side of the Airstream to take some of the strain off the inlet fitting, and keep me from tripping over the hose:

https://www.amazon.com/Camco-Degree-...5122HVTDD83Y78

And this is the filter I hang below the elbow, to try to keep the big chunks of sediment out of my faucet screens:

https://www.amazon.com/Camco-TastePU...0WZHP2RJXKQ127

The idea is to minimize the strain on the Airstream internal (infernal) regulator--which is darn near impossible to get to on my rig--the shower stall outside wall is in the way! The rest is to avoid over-pressure on the plumbing. And yes, absolutely be sure to turn off the campground spigot and bleed the pressure out of your hose when you are not hanging around the AS!

[JCWDCW]

Some parks have 90 psig and lend you a regulator to go on the hose bib. Regulator in the trailer does't help the hose.
JCW

[JCWDCW]

Originally Posted by harryk

If you have a 100 lbs. pressure at the RV Park and you hook up with a so called pressure reducing valve, you have 100 lbs. on your plumbing all the time except when you are running the water .They are nothing but a washer with a small hole and the pressure on both sides is the same when not running the water. A real pressure reducing valve will dump the excess pressure and water on the ground while no water is running and stop dumping when you are running the water to maintain the set pressure.
With the pressure you are talking about, its a wonder something did not break.
In this case, running off the tank is the only way to go

SO a bleed off by a valve is a pressure relief valve; designed to pop when upstream pressure exceeds its set point. A pressure regulator is spring loaded to close at excess pressure down stream and unless the seat is faulty it should not bleed through and let excess pressure build up down stream. If this were not true then every Airstream would be in danger of exceeding the max pressure the internal piping can withstand if the pressure regulator bled through.

JCW

[Blu_Hwy_Lady]

After an experience years ago at a sketchy RV park outside of Moab that actually blew out the pressure regulator and an apparently weak joint in the copper plumbing, I'm not taking any chances. It happened in the middle of the night and we woke up to an inch of water in the trailer--warping the laminate floor and a shorting out converter. There was a lake around the trailer outside. The internal pump is a little noisy but at least I know for certain that the plumbing is safe. I only use the hose to fill the tank.

[PatLee]

kendrick - thanks, I ordered your recommended regulator. Based on past threads, I bought and use a surge protector religiously. Thank you.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by JCWDCW

SO a bleed off by a valve is a pressure relief valve; designed to pop when upstream pressure exceeds its set point. A pressure regulator is spring loaded to close at excess pressure down stream and unless the seat is faulty it should not bleed through and let excess pressure build up down stream. If this were not true then every Airstream would be in danger of exceeding the max pressure the internal piping can withstand if the pressure regulator bled through.

JCW

Go back a couple of posts to see what is being answered—that a pressure regulator only reduces volume and not pressure. Seems, if that is true, they would be called volume regulators. I previously had commented that turning down the spigot valve would reduce the problem temporarily and two posters clarified that to confirm what I was speculating: eventually pressure would build up again, so fill your fresh water tank and turn off the spigot.

Having been a liberal arts major, the relationship between pressure and volume is not altogether clear to me. I know that when I remove the pressure regulator, I get more pressure and volume in the shower. What does the change cause? I always figured more pressure means more volume, but the capacity of the pipe matters too. I think the reverse is not true, but am having trouble understanding it. Fluid dynamics is beyond me, though I seem to remember Avogadro’s Law has something to do with it. I prefer avocados.

I had not heard before of flooding in trailers caused by over pressure when a separate pressure regulator installed by an RV owner was left in place. I don’t think our 2008 Safari had it’s own pressure regulator and if it did, it wasn’t always enough. Our Nash may have one because water flow in it is lower than the Airsream was with a regulator installed at the spigot.

We always start with a regulator at the spigot and then see what the pressure is inside. We haven’t turned off the water when we leave. I understand that is the essence of caution, though I wonder how often it is a problem.

I confess when we started trailering, I never thought about the best place to install the pressure regulator until I saw it on this Forum. Then it was obvious, before it was not. Filters are not designed to reduce pressure, but they are an obstruction and must have some effect reducing pressure. How much, I don’t know.

Where is Mr. (or Ms.) Avogadro when we need him or her?

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Phil and/or Sue

I was scared to go to Palmetto Cove campground without a water pressure reducing valve. I had heard (and it was true) that 90 psi was not unusual, so I built a prv with hose fittings on both ends.

But I am in Renfro Valley tonight on my way to Jackson Center and a neighbor knocked on my door and said I broke a hose. Yep, flooded the next (empty) site. He said he broke one due to high pressure at the park, so I got my hose fitting water pressure gauge (after taking off my split hose), attached at the spigot is hen turned on the water.

200 psi. I’m glad I have an inlet regulator in the trailer. Attachment 321446. I hooked up my home made prv and now have about 70.Attachment 321447

I would check my gauge for accuracy. 200 PSI is power washer pressure.
We test water mains at a max of 150 PSI. At 200 PSI joints on the main line would burst. No system I have ever encountered installing several hundred miles of Water Mains of all sizes possessed booster pumps capable of generating 200 PSI. Mains are usually at 50 to 60 psi. The only time you will get slightly higher pressure is when a system relies on booster pumps in which case they have pressure regulators and the pumps are limited by design in how much pressure they can produce.

[Motoman]

Originally Posted by Gene

Go back a couple of posts to see what is being answered—that a pressure regulator only reduces volume and not pressure. Seems, if that is true, they would be called volume regulators. I previously had commented that turning down the spigot valve would reduce the problem temporarily and two posters clarified that to confirm what I was speculating: eventually pressure would build up again, so fill your fresh water tank and turn off the spigot.

I'll draw on a past working life to reply to the comment from Gene about volume vs pressure regulation.

Pressure regulators reduce pressure based upon their design. They may also reduce volume although that it not always the intent. Lower pressure and friction in the downstream pipes (hose and trailer plumbing) may limit how much water can be delivered from the regulator to the fixture; shower, faucet, etc. A worn or faulty regulator may regulate when water is flowing but may allow it to creep up over time when flow is stopped but that should be fixed by rebuilding (can't rebuild our RV regulators like most used for homes) or replacement.

I would admit I am surprised at campers seeing 200 psi; most state building and plumbing codes limit pressure within structures to 80 psi. While 200 in the campground doesn't violate that since it's the distribution system and not in a structure it's quite unusual to have pressure that high.

[JCWDCW]

Quote; Gene
"Having been a liberal arts major, the relationship between pressure and volume is not altogether clear to me. I know that when I remove the pressure regulator, I get more pressure and volume in the shower. What does the change cause? I always figured more pressure means more volume, but the capacity of the pipe matters too. I think the reverse is not true, but am having trouble understanding it. Fluid dynamics is beyond me, though I seem to remember Avogadro’s Law has something to do with it. I prefer avocados."

I tried answering this a day or so back and my post ended up in some PM box.
Trying again.
Water pressure and flow is similar to electrical voltage and current.
Higher pressure equals more flow in the given system. The regulator reduces pressure at the source by pre-set spring pressure acting to work against the supply. The regulator actually closes completely when water flow is shut off, so there is no bleed through of pressure ( unless it is faulty or worn out). The regulator has a somewhat restrictive effect on flow because it has smaller internal passages than an open hose, (like extra resistance in an electrical circuit reduces voltage) so you will get reduced flow with the regulator in place even if the the spigot supply pressure is less than the regulator set pressure.Therefore if you remove the regulator you get more flow, either because the flow is less restricted, or the pressure is higher. Both result in more flow as you saw in your shower.

Once flow is stopped the pressure at the inlet to the trailer will rise to the set point in the regulator at the spigot. Similarly electrical voltage at the device being powered is slightly less than the supply voltage ( at the battery) due to resistance. Shut off the device, and voltage measured at the device and at the battery will be the same because there is no electrical current ( flow) and therefore no loss of voltage in the wiring.
Choking the flow at the spigot reduces pressure while water is flowing due to resistance. Even if you crack a spigot and get nothing more than a dribble out the hose, when you shut off the hose at the open end , the pressure will rise to the pressure at the spigot. Hopefully the regulator does not let a dribble through when the flow is stopped inside the trailer. Regulators are pretty dependable. If not more of us would be replacing Pex lines in the summer heat when the trailer regulator let pressure pass through!
JCW

[Phil and/or Sue]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

I would check my gauge for accuracy. 200 PSI is power washer pressure.
We test water mains at a max of 150 PSI. At 200 PSI joints on the main line would burst. No system I have ever encountered installing several hundred miles of Water Mains of all sizes possessed booster pumps capable of generating 200 PSI. Mains are usually at 50 to 60 psi. The only time you will get slightly higher pressure is when a system relies on booster pumps in which case they have pressure regulators and the pumps are limited by design in how much pressure they can produce.

I exaggerated a little...it was only 196 psi. The city was draining hydrants. My neighbor who told me about my split hose also lost a hose to this high pressure.

The day before had a water main break, probably requiring the higher pressure to keep downstream pressure up, but fixed the break and temporarily had a unexpected high pressure here. The next morning the pressure was less than 16 psi.

I haven't seen a problem this extreme any time in the 15 years I've been camping in my Airstreams. The campground had all steel pipe, so the weak point was my hose, and that hose might have protected my interior plumbing!

Phil

[Rod Harris]

I was told a while back for my 2014 FC20 by AS customer service that 65psi is the max for city water pressure into trailer and no concern on pressure for black water flush

[harryk]

If I remember correctly from my Firefighter/pump operator days, there is a increase of pressure due to elevation. I think the rule of thumb figure was 5 lbs for 8 ft. So, if the pipes run downhill say from the mountain, there is indeed a increase in pressure, without any pumps involved. If you live at the top of a hill, your pressure is less than a neighbor at the bottom of the hill. Engineering comes into play here.

[kkdesigns]

I have a new 27FB. Where would I find the in trailer pressure regulator?

[OTRA15]

It is usually right behind the city water fill hose connection, which means it may be buried inside/behind a cabinet/bed/dinette/etc. depending on your floor plan.

You might want to ask in the forum for your model:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f544/

Peter

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Phil and/or Sue

I exaggerated a little...it was only 196 psi. The city was draining hydrants. My neighbor who told me about my split hose also lost a hose to this high pressure.

The day before had a water main break, probably requiring the higher pressure to keep downstream pressure up, but fixed the break and temporarily had a unexpected high pressure here. The next morning the pressure was less than 16 psi.

I haven't seen a problem this extreme any time in the 15 years I've been camping in my Airstreams. The campground had all steel pipe, so the weak point was my hose, and that hose might have protected my interior plumbing!

Phil

It doesnt work that way. Pressure doesn't get increased to compensate for a leak. Its constant throughout the system. The section with the leak gets isolated shut down and leak is repaired. If it's a long section without a valve for a long distance a valve gets inserted close to the brake. Throughout this process the pressure is constant in the system.
I carry a regulator I found left behind by someone but I never use it since I have yet to encounter a private or a municipal system with extreme pressure.
If anything most systems across the board are under pressured. No one spends more on a system than necessary. More often than not pipes are undersized.

[Gene]

Given that there are lots and lots of water systems, I'm sure there is one with 200 psi for a limited time. Having been on a nonprofit water company board in a small community, I know how badly a system can be designed or maintained (not the one I was on, mostly, but sometimes, and I sure heard about other ones). I'm not sure how increasing pressure when there is a break would actually increase pressure since you are just forcing more water out the break and making it harder to fix. Older systems might not have many shut offs and may try to fix leaks without turning off water for large areas. I think fixing a leak with 200 psi at the break would be dangerous, but it would make for an impressive fountain. And 16 psi would be very weak and I wonder if water would get to the 2nd floor without being much more than a trickle.

In have a few times been warned about the pressure at RV parks when I checked in. I think I was told one had around 120 psi, twice the optimal pressure in city water systems. I think that one had water storage up a mountain and pressure builds with the drop as explained above.

Best to use a regulator until you know what the situation is. And I had two, but could only find one the other day. Frank must have found it.