Speed Traps

[Janet H]

I found an interesting listing of speed traps.
The Speed Trap Exchange

Does anyone ever speed towing?

[10brink]

I thought it might be interesting to pull up Amarillo on the Speed Trap list. Yep, all the places that I get citizen speeding complaints about are on the list. People call with complaints....We put officers there. If no one is speeding there, we go somewhere else. Never a shortage of places to put officers. On another thread, another member said it best..." If we're not speeding, we don't get stopped."

[Airstreamer67]

I suppose it's human nature for someone to complain to police about speeders on their steet, yet criticize the police for being nefarious when they get caught speeding on somebody else's street.

[tin sista]

In our township the public safety office puts up one of those mobile sign machines with "your speed is (flashing light with your speed)" and the legal limit shown beside it. Then the next week they have law enforcement officers in the area.

[bryanl]

On another thread, another member said it best..." If we're not speeding, we don't get stopped."

wish this were true, but it is a rationalization and not a reality.

See the FHWA MUTCD for the guidelines that should be used to set "legal" speed limits or the Arizona DOT on Speed Limits for one of the more rational authoritative explanations.

The classic speed trap pulls over those least likely to contest a ticket for the purpose of raising revenue. That is dishonest enough. Then there is the rationalization that it is about safety, which is disengenuous. Then you get into the issues of selective enforcement, entrapment, and some other tactics that are downright dishonest.

Then there is the broader philosophical issue - who is best to determine an appropriate speed on the road: the driver who knows his vehicle, has most at risk, and is evaluating current conditions - or - some bureaucrat who does not account for conditions, driver capabilities, vehicles, traffic or other factors?

The sad part, to me, is what the speed trap does to the cops and how people think of them.

Ya, know, the funny thing is, we have a fairly close analogy right here, in forum behavior and the enforcement of forum guidelines ... The problem is not speed, not safety, but rather respect and promotion of proper behavior and what an authority should do towards that goal.

[azflycaster]

The last speeding ticket I got was 1 year ago, the one before that was 25 years earlier. I was nailed by radar about 10 feet before a 65 MPH sign and I was "technically" in a 55 MPH zone. I was doing 65 MPH. This was in a rural part of Arizona (Dewey). I paid my $125 and went to traffic school. 12 other people in my class got a ticket the same place and the same day, Tell me again that this is about safety.

[lewster]

This is the ONLY national group that is looking out for the rights of the motorists against uneven and sometimes illegal speed enforcement, rabid beauracrats that think traffic fines are solely a revenue source, underhanded insurance companies and the like.

Check them out!

[DFord79]

A...is this to simple or what. I have not had a ticked for almost 30 years. OK, I have to tell you the last ticket I got was in the desert near Wennamucka (SP) Navada for chris sake. Middle of the day and smokey had a bear in the air and just over the horizon troopers lined up to GET US comming over the rise. In the middle of nowhere. I had been driving with the flow for several hundred miles and Whammo......got nailed for doing 15 over. The trooper told me they needed (IF you can believe this?) to write tickets to show they were inforcing the federal double nickel so they could get funding?

[ckeysor]

I am only responding to this because of the policeman that responded above. Formally I lived 1/2 mile from a police precinct and the largest complaint in the neighborhood was that the police were the only ones speeding! Even through the neighborhood association we couldn't get the police to listen. Even though it was a transitional neighborhood in Atlanta I think we would rather have the police station close for our safety!

My own experience is that police fall in 3 groups:

-ex-military
-legacy police officers that have a calling
-people on a power trip

I sleep well at night because of the first two, they are a real asset to our security. It is the third that scare me.

However... isn't this an odd subject to discuss on the Airforums? We simply should not be driving over the speed limit

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by DFord79

A...is this to simple or what. I have not had a ticked for almost 30 years. OK, I have to tell you the last ticket I got was in the desert near Wennamucka (SP) Navada for chris sake. Middle of the day and smokey had a bear in the air and just over the horizon troopers lined up to GET US comming over the rise. In the middle of nowhere. I had been driving with the flow for several hundred miles and Whammo......got nailed for doing 15 over. The trooper told me they needed (IF you can believe this?) to write tickets to show they were inforcing the federal double nickel so they could get funding?

That was the truth during the 55 mph days. IIRC Montana was the only state that told the federal gummit where to stick their dollars at that time and issued "energy conservation" tickets that were $10 and payable on the spot, as long was you weren't being careless and reckless. There was a big article in Road and Track at the time.

Aaron

[volvophile]

Gotta say I'm not suprised to see Colorado Springs in the list, we've been asking for it for a long time.
If you find yourself only going "10 over" on your way home from work, then your probably still in the parking lot.

Diesel just hit $3.39 a gallon here. So the way I look at it, any towing speed over 63mph, and Im writing my own ticket.

[85MH325]

Iowa raised the speed limit on I-80 a couple of years back to 70 from 65. I had to drive to Des Moines from Iowa City on the end of the Thanksgiving holiday. The normally two and a half hour drive took nearly 4 hours. I saw three rollovers. The weather was clear, and the roads were dry. 70 mph is too fast for the average driver to be competent. On the return trip one driver had gone through the median just east of Amana and taken out a car headed the opposite direction. Both drivers died.

Three weeks ago, some friends of mine lost their beautiful nineteen year old daughter to another drunk teen who did a u-turn on the interstate and crashed into her head-on at freeway speed. Both girls died in the crash.

My law enforcement career started in 1975 and I'm a chief of police in a town of 3200. This is my second chief's job. I have had to battle with both cities' councils who demanded to know why they shouldn't use fine revenue in meeting their budget. My response both times was that we write citations to address traffic safety, NOT to raise revenues. If they want me to raise revenues with citations, I told them I would, but each citation would be explained to the citizens as a revenue generation citation, and that we were doing it at the direction of the Council. Both councils backed off immediately. Frankly, I can't even tell you how many citations my department writes as I don't track them, and I don't care. I DO track accidents and we heavily address problem intersections and highways for safety. We have written over a hundred seat belt violation citations this year (the State causes us to track those).

In a perfect world, folks would know the limits of their equipment, keep the equipment in good condition, and would know their limits. Unfortunately, a quarter of the folks you share the road with aren't competent to drive, either because they're unlicensed, are intoxicated on alcohol, illegal drugs, legal drugs, or are ill (the first two days of the common cold make you a worse driver than having a few drinks and then driving). Age is a huge factor in driver competence, youth and dotage both representing fatality and injury accidents far greater than their representation in the public. And yet, you think nothing of heading into traffic knowing that a quarter of the folks around you aren't competent to drive the car they're driving.

Police officers are also not created equally. Some are in the early stages of their career where traffic enforcement is the easiest thing to do that they can do and be successful. Some have excellent common sense. Some don't. Some departments have excellent supervision. Some don't. Some are focused, some aren't. If you have concerns, voice them to your local politicians. Get elected to office. Be proactive about it. Do something to fix it.

The most effective safety tool available to us isn't being used. We need MUCH more stringent licensing requirements, and folks who are unlicensed and driving need to have their cars seized and forfeited. I've heard that in Japan, it costs nearly $10k to obtain a driver's license, and few folks accomplish it the first time around. I don't know how true that is, but in theory, it would go a long way to reducing injuries and deaths on our highways. Obviously there are many more pieces to the puzzle; easily available and reliable mass transit, for example, but we're discussing driving, speed, and our propensity to kill and maim one another here.

Since 1996, we have killed over forty thousand of our population annually in car crashes, for a total of well over 400,000 of our own people in just ten years, yet the impact of those deaths are lost on the public. Think about that in terms of terrorists and the flap that would be occurring if those folks had been killed in some other violent act other than traffic accidents.

If you folks have a better idea on how to get the population of the U.S. to become better drivers and stop killing each other on the road than speed and OWI traffic enforcement, I'm sure that those of us who head law enforcement agencies of all sizes stand more than ready to listen to you.

Roger

[lewster]

Roger,

Thanks for your well-stated post. I applaud your methods and management style of your department. Unfortunately, many departments ARE required to write tickets AS REVENUE and that revenue IS counted into the local budgets. Safety is NOT the focus but a farce!!!

I totally agree with you that our drivers licensing programs are not only inadequate, but are mostly a joke! Look at a country like Germany, where drivers must undergo a much more rigorous and lengthy process for obtaining a driver license. They not only need to know the rules of the road in-depth, but their skill behind the wheel must be demonstrated to a much higher degree than around here. After getting licensed, I sought out several additional driver training courses, similar to what some police deartments use, to enhance my driving skills. These courses made me totally comfortable with defensive and high speed manuevers and total car handling. IMHO, ALL DRIVERS should receive this type of training!

That said, I still feel that driving a car at a tender young age of 15 is NONSENSE! Not only backed up by statistics, but attitude. Most middle teens can't handle themselves....PERIOD.......and definitely should not even approach a motor vehicle until 17 or 18.

There are many, many issues that US drivers either forget or ignore that create the unsafe atmosphere we now have while driving. Knowing the Rules of the Road, lane discipline, signaling in turns, common sense and attitude, attitude, attitude would go a long way to making the highways a much safer place to be.

Thanks! I feel better now.

Lew

[Beginner]

I have the best fuzz buster in the world.
Its a cruse control.
It workd down to 25 mph than the good lord.
I set it 1 to 3 MPH below the prevailing velocity of traffic so that I am not running up on other vehicles (farmers tractors not included) , don't help it, and it keeps me out of trouble.
I also enjoy the scenery more cause I find that the "get there" is gone and I enjoy the trip a lot more.
Beginner

[SilverRanger]

Well stated, Roger. I'll never forget a conversation on the law (one might even call it a lecture) I had with my grandfather, who was somewhat of an outlaw himself (during prohibition). I was sixteen years old, and we were on our way back from the Division of Motor Vehicles where I had just obtained my drivers license. He hd taught me to drive out on the farm, so he knew I had a "heavy foot". He was explaining, in some detail, the responsibilities of operating a vehicle, and the importance of avoiding traffic tickets. At the end of the conversation he leaned over and asked me, " Do you want to know the best way to beat the law?" I said, "I sure do, Pop!", to which he replied, "Obey the law".

[SilverRanger]

Originally Posted by lewster

That said, I still feel that driving a car at a tender young age of 15 is NONSENSE! Not only backed up by statistics, but attitude. Most middle teens can't handle themselves....PERIOD.......and definitely should not even approach a motor vehicle until 17 or 18.

Lew

I wholeheartedly agree with that, Lew. A few years back, Delaware passed some some progressive licensing laws that allows kids to get their license (conditional permit) at age sixteen, but imposed several restrictions and conditions, such as only driving with a licensed adult for a specified period of time, then only driving during certain hours and to certain events, such as school, work, etc. I think it has made a difference.

When my daughter, who would be affected by the new law, found out about it at school, she came home and asked me if I knew about this "outrageous new law". I told her that I not only knew about it, but I had an opportunity to review and make recommendations on it before it was enacted. I wasn't very popular for a while. What really surprised me was that several of her friend's parents chose to ignore most of the conditions of the permit.

[tin sista]

This is a thought provoking thread.

I guess for me its important to understand what is an unjust speed trap versus a community concern. I am a parent of a young child who rides a bike.

Is it a speed trap if its near an elementary school? How about a residential area/subdivision with no sidewalks and lots of kids on bikes like mine? Or a heavily used pedestrian area? How do you know which it is if you are towing through a new town to you? Is it just on highways near speed change signs that it is considered a speed trap?

I have family in a town on the speed trap list, Livonia, Michigan, and people down there drive awfully fast I think they need to slow down too.

OTOH Azflycaster's example sounds like a bummer of a speed trap. I would be steamed too if I got a ticket under those circumstances.

No disrespect intended to anyone, I think everyone has a different perspective and I am sure no one would want to hurt anyone with their vehicle.

[safari57]

Then, or course, there's this kind of speed trap. I don't know how true this is, but I got it a couple of days ago. Having been caught in a radar trap where the only ones getting stopped, picked out of the traffic and waved over, were those folks with out-of-State licence plates, I could only wish that this happened to those cops.
Barry

Two British traffic patrol officers from North Berwick were involved in an unusual incident while checking for speeding motorists on the A1 Great North Road. One of the officers used a hand-held radar device to check the speed of a vehicle approaching over the crest of a hill, and was surprised when the speed was recorded at over 300 mph. Their radar suddenly stopped working and the officers were not able to reset it.

Just then a deafening roar over the treetops revealed that the radar had in fact latched on to a NATO Tornado fighter jet which was engaged in a low-flying exercise over the Border district, approaching from the North Sea .

Back at police headquarters the chief constable fired off a stiff complaint to the RAF Liaison office.

Back came the reply in true laconic RAF style

"Thank you for your message, which allows us to complete the file on this incident. You may be interested to know that the tactical computer in the Tornado had detected the presence of, and subsequently locked onto, your hostile radar equipment and automatically sent a jamming signal back to it. Furthermore, an air-to-ground missile aboard the fully-armed aircraft had also automatically locked onto your equipment. Fortunately the pilot flying the Tornado recognized the situation for what it was, quickly responded to the missile systems alert status, and was able to override the automated defense system before the missile was launched and your hostile radar installation was destroyed.

[jacarape]

There is a difference between traffic enforcement and a speed trap, I think that is important to diferentiate. Anytime that a police car is hidden, the obvious goal is not enforcement but to write tickets.

That being said, I was just busted for speeding, the trooper explained it was a 385 dollar fine, then told me "before you say anything", and gave me fix it tickets for registration and proof of insurance, he basicly told me to be quiet and not take them out of the glove box.

In regards to obnoxious speeding, it is incredibly fun. I'll be flamed here, that is ok. I have a 1000cc Superbike, and it comes into it's own at about 125mph, taps out at 170. I know I am a safer rider then any car driver with a phone glued to their ear. The fun part is, well, if you don't ride you wouldn't understand.

[AgZep]

Roger,

With all due respect, eastern Iowa is nothing like the southwest. I don't think I'd consider speeding there ever. I'd be particularly careful around Amana due to all the at grade intersections, farm equipment and animals that get on the road. And I never go faster than 55 towing the trailer.

But having said that, there are places where I feel comfortable going a lot faster in the right car. My wife and I were driving back from southern CA through Arizona on I-10 the Sunday after Thanksgiving. We were in my Porsche 911 (with brand new wheels and tires, by the way). We'd been keeping up with a line of about 15 cars for about half an hour. I was keeping about 9 to 10 seconds back from the Nissan Sentra in front of me. We were going about 82 in a 75 zone. We came over a hill and saw around 12 police cruisers pulliung people over. Not surprisingly, I got pulled over, but the Nissan with the AZ plate got away.

On that stretch of I-10, you can literally see for 10 miles in every direction. The road is smooth and wide. If there were any large animals living in that desert, you could see them well before they got to the road. I think my car was more safe at that speed than many I see here in town going 15, especially given that I have plently of experience blasting down the Autobahn at 150 in far lesser vehicles. As far as I'm concerned, that was nothing but a money-making opportunity for the locals. Next time, I'll have a radar detector.