Speed Traps

[DFord79]

AgZep....If and when you come to Washington state in your 911 don't be fooled by good hiways and wide open spaces that you can see animals on the roads for miles. It is not the ones you can see that are the problem its the ones that JUMP you that you never see. Deer, Elk, Coyotes, Dogs, out of the sage brush or from behind a tree. That 911 and an elk at 82 miles an hour would be bad news. It would be the one you NEVER see that gets you. Friend of mine traveling along hiway 395 on a wide open area had a deer jump on His hood and smash trough his windshild and totalled his NEW GMC truck. He only recieved minor injuries. He said HE never saw the animal. It jumped from the side of the road from the sage brush. ASK JANET...about the animals that can ambush you here. She will probably back me up here. From rabbits to STATE patrol that like to hide in the brush. One of em will get ya if you push it.

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by jacarape

In regards to obnoxious speeding, it is incredibly fun. I'll be flamed here, that is ok. I have a 1000cc Superbike, and it comes into it's own at about 125mph, taps out at 170. I know I am a safer rider then any car driver with a phone glued to their ear. The fun part is, well, if you don't ride you wouldn't understand.

I rode a BMW R100RT 60,000 miles in three years. I understand. Not to worry. Darwin called that phenomenon "natural selection". I just hope you don't take anyone else with you when you go. The average road bike at 100 miles an hour can cut an '87 Lincoln TownCar in half. Ask me how I know. By the way, you can't ask either of those drivers any more. I'll bet that the rider of that bike thought he was a safer than any car driver too.

Roger

[AgZep]

Originally Posted by DFord79

AgZep....If and when you come to Washington state in your 911 don't be fooled by good hiways and wide open spaces that you can see animals on the roads for miles. It is not the ones you can see that are the problem its the ones that JUMP you that you never see. Deer, Elk, Coyotes, Dogs, out of the sage brush or from behind a tree. That 911 and an elk at 82 miles an hour would be bad news. It would be the one you NEVER see that gets you. Friend of mine traveling along hiway 395 on a wide open area had a deer jump on His hood and smash trough his windshild and totalled his NEW GMC truck. He only recieved minor injuries. He said HE never saw the animal. It jumped from the side of the road from the sage brush. ASK JANET...about the animals that can ambush you here. She will probably back me up here. From rabbits to STATE patrol that like to hide in the brush. One of em will get ya if you push it.

Yeah, I've been there many times, and having lived in WY and CO, I know all about elk. Thing is, in southern AZ, it would be hard for a rabbit to find anything to hide behind, much less an elk. The only vertical objects to be seen for miles are suguaro cactus, and I've yet to see an elk small enough to fit behind one of those.

My point was that one needs to consider conditions. I wouldn't go faster than the bare minimum in a school zone, but I'm just not very excited by any safety lectures about the perils of driving on a flat road through a desert in broad daylight.

[JimGolden]

"Anybody who drives slower than you is a poke. Anybody who drives faster than you is a lunatic!"

[Glenn G]

Roger,
Thanks for the sage advice and insite.
Thanks for the reason and thoughtfulness of your comments.

Glenn

[Gene]

Obviously this is an emotional issue. Since the national speed limit of 55 was repealed, I haven't gotten a ticket. A radar detector is a good investment. I thought of the 55 limit as an additional fee on driving.

I think we will see more and more tickets being issued as photo radar spreads. It's just too tempting as a revenue producer. When we were in Arizona a couple of weeks ago we heard on the news that the state was buying photo radar for state highways—I don't know whether that was for the interstates or all rural state highways. What fun to get a ticket in the mail a few weeks later. When Denver went into the photo radar revenue business in the '90's they tried mailing tickets, but the courts ruled they had to be served personally. I think a lot of jurisdictions try to get around that procedural rule and hope no one goes to court. When you're stopped by a cop, you know whether you are guilty or not, but when you get a photo radar ticket weeks later, how can you remember what you were doing?

All those computers in cars record your speed—they use them to adjust fuel/air mixture and feed all the digital readouts. If you have something like Onstar, your speed can be reported. The data can be used if you are in an accident as it is stored for a while in the auto computer. Some car rental companies have used it to fine people for speeding; I think in Connecticut the courts ruled against the rental company. In parts of Europe, insurance companies will give you a lower rate if you subject yourself to speed monitoring. I'm sure that will come to the US. So, if you pass someone on a two lane, you are usually violating the speed limit—if a satellite is watching you, or photo radar, too bad. What if you go one mph over? Will eventually everyone's speed and location be reported to state and federal computers—too much data for now, but computer storage keeps getting bigger.

It's always seemed to me traffic police have to prove they are working and the easiest way is to write speeding tickets. It's a lot harder to catch someone weaving down the road or going slow in the left lane while jabbering on a cellphone. People weaving in and out of traffic trying to get ahead of everyone, or tailgating to intimidate me when I'm traveling 10 miles over the limit are very dangerous, but I never see a cop going after them.

It's difficult to speed while towing (except in California where the limit on interstates while towing is 55), but we all drive other times, and speed traps are available to everyone. A lot of speed limits are set too low by DOT people with little knowledge of what they are doing, or under political pressure. I've seen plenty of cops speeding or driving badly. Those problems cause disrespect for the law but the police will not police their own.

You can add to the speed trap list:
1. Hotchkiss, Colorado, bills itself as "The Friendliest Town Around". A 25 limit through town on a wide main street (Colo. 92) seduces people to go 30 or even 35; leaving town to the north on Colo. 133, the speed limit goes up by 10 mile increments in short spacing—beware if you speed up before a sign or don't slow down fast enough after coming down a long grade; coming into town on 92 from the east, the cop sometimes hides just around the curve. One town council member told me the speed limit should be 15.
2. US 50 between Delta and Grand Junction was recently rebuilt as a 4 lane through uninhabited desert with a speed limit of 65. The Colorado air force comes out from time to time since half the vehicles are going 75.
3. Denver used to use photo radar liberally, obviously for revenue. I don't know whether that's still going on.
4. Anywhere in Colorado: the state troopers have two jobs—investigate accidents and "traffic enforcement" (speed traps). Their usual habitat is interstates. They used to be called the "state patrol", but they convinced the legislature some years ago to change it to "trooper" even though they have no other law enforcement authority. A lot of us thought they just wanted to wear those cool trooper hats.

Do I speed when not towing? I have the right to remain silent. Anything I say may be used against me…

Gene

[dwightdi]

My Illinois community is on their list. We have been known as a speed trap for years. It would seem traffic tickets are a way to balance the budget on the backs of outsiders. All the locals know where they hide and therefore rarely get caught. I have seen the Wisconsin police pull the Illinois plates over on the weekends while letting the Wisconsin plate go by at the same speed. In some commuinities it becomes more likely toward the end of the month if they have not met their quota. Many local taxing bodies are hurting for funds and it is very tempting to raise "fees" and fines rather than getting the legislators or people to approve raising "taxes". The voting public may not reelect people who raise "taxes".

[Airstreamer67]

All of the rationalizations for breaking the law by speeding. Ain't it amusing.

Let's assume that many speeding enforcement efforts are motivated by revenue enhancement. So what? In these cases, speeding tickets are the same as enhancing revenue via licensed gambling: they're a voluntary tax that reduces the need for higher property taxes. I applaude it.

[tpi]

I tow as slowly as anyone-usually about 60 MPH. I think it saves time overall on less impact shock to the trailer, and less tire trouble in hot weather plus the fuel savings. I'm not an advocate of high speeds when towing.

That said, it is pretty obvious that speed limits are arbitrary from region to region as well as the enforcement. In my driving I have encountered areas which are truly speed traps (have not had ticket in nearly 30 years).

Top of my list: Beatty NV

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Airstreamer67

All of the rationalizations for breaking the law by speeding. Ain't it amusing.

Remember those law breakers who dumped the tea into Boston Harbor? Or maybe those people on the Underground Railroad who protected blacks who escaped the south before 1860?

While speeding isn't quite the equivalent of those acts, it is true Americans largely ignore dumb laws or unfair enforcement. When legislators are too cowardly to reform dumbness or prevent speed traps, the citizenry takes action on its own. When a majority of drivers ignore speed limits (probably more in most places), informal democracy prevails.

Also, just was in Beatty, Nevada, without incident. I tow through towns pretty much at the speed limit and keep the radar detector on, no matter how dumb the limit may be, because I know I'm a large, perhaps out of state, obvious target for a revenue-hungary or lazy cop.

Gene

[lewster]

Ya know,

Speed limits were originally set by engineers using technical data that pegged the speed at the 85th percentile of the measured rate of speed that the drivers of a certain road were traveling. As soon as the politicians and safety zealots started 'massaging' the data and speed 'enforcement' became a cash cow for many municipalities and ther government entities, the reasonable approach to speed limits went out the window.

Certain areas like school zones and heavily populated areas demand lower speed limits, but on interstates ad other hi-speed major thoroughfares......I think NOT! Reason has given way to governmental greed and an 'us vs. them' mentality of many law enforcement personnel. Many speed related accidents are the result of speed differentials between vehicles....say 50 vs 70mph on an intersate. Homogeneity of the traveling population, even at high rates of speed are far safer. Just look at the European hi-speed roadways like the Autobahn.

[JimGolden]

Right on Lew!

This being said, I do tend to take my time and smell the roses when I'm on vacation and pulling the trailer. But when I'm in the car going to work, I drive faster. Never unsafe fast, but I think a well maintained car can be driven faster than a nearly 60' long camping rig.

Now should I get the Honda 3000 or the Yamaha 3000 genset....

OK, back on topic. I prefer airplanes. You can go faster, safer now if I could just afford that Helio....

[rangebowdrie]

I don't care how fast everyone else is going, I will not tow faster than 55 to 60; mileage is much better, and I certainly enjoy the trip more, and with much less " white knuckle" tension.

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by lewster

Ya know,

Speed limits were originally set by engineers using technical data that pegged the speed at the 85th percentile of the measured rate of speed that the drivers of a certain road were traveling.

The speed limits were set for the interstates in the '60s. Traffic is three or four times more dense today than then. The general public's driving skills have not improved.

Sorry all you speed demons. You may be a safe driver at a speed over the posted limit, but the guy you're passing may not be.

If you choose to speed, and you get cited... speed trap or otherwise, consider it your cost of doing business. I can't get too worked up about your tale of woe.

Roger

[lewster]

Originally Posted by 85MH325

The speed limits were set for the interstates in the '60s. Traffic is three or four times more dense today than then. The general public's driving skills have not improved.

Sorry all you speed demons. You may be a safe driver at a speed over the posted limit, but the guy you're passing may not be.

If you choose to speed, and you get cited... speed trap or otherwise, consider it your cost of doing business. I can't get too worked up about your tale of woe.

Roger

Roger,

Point taken, especially about driving skills. In fact, I think that driving skills (now that's almost an oxymoron!) have declined precipitously since I first got behind the wheel.

If driving truly is a priviledge and NOT a right, then why isn't something being done on the training and education front to make new drivers more highly trained and responsible for their actions? You have to agree that the vast majority of driver training courses offered to young folks today are mostly a JOKE that is not funny at all! Why does one have to pay reatively large sums of money for training that actually teaches you evasive manuevers in emergency situations, how to drive defensively and how to REALLY drive a vehicle? I sought out several of these courses when I was younger to develop my skills behind the wheel, realizing that the ability to parallel park had absolutely no relationship to operating a 4000lb machine at 70 mph.

Driver training should focus on HOW to operate a vehicle in ALL traffic conditions, how the actions of a single driver can have disastrous consequences, how adhering to the rules of the road make traffic flow more homogenous and safer for all, and exactly what forces act on a vehicle in different conditions to give a clear picture to students of just what they are doing behind the wheel.

[SilverRanger]

Originally Posted by lewster

"... speed 'enforcement' became a cash cow for many municipalities and ther government entities, the reasonable approach to speed limits went out the window."

There's no doubt that's the case in many governmental entities, but let's not forget the insurance industry.

Originally Posted by lewster

"... an 'us vs. them' mentality of many law enforcement personnel. "

Based on actual experience, I have a different perspective on that. My officers viewed speed enforcement duty as a pain in the butt, but necessary. Our speed enforcement operations were out in the open, well signed, and we typically didn't stop anyone unless they were well above (10-15 MPH) the posted limit. My agency also had discretion on whether to enforce state code (fines and points proportionate with speed), or our own regulation which was a flat fine ($25) that doubled for a second and subsequent violations, but gave no points on the license of the driver. The regulatory approach worked very well for us and, in my opinion, enhanced public safety. In my career, I don't recall one of our speeding tickets ever being challenged in court.

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by SilverRanger

There's no doubt that's the case in many governmental entities, but let's not forget the insurance industry.


Based on actual experience, I have a different perspective on that. My officers viewed speed enforcement duty as a pain in the butt, but necessary.

And, in working for and observing a number of other agencies over my career, I have had the same experience as SilverRanger. Very few enjoyed doing traffic enforcement.

Originally Posted by lewster

Roger,

Point taken, especially about driving skills. In fact, I think that driving skills (now that's almost an oxymoron!) have declined precipitously since I first got behind the wheel.

If driving truly is a priviledge and NOT a right, then why isn't something being done on the training and education front to make new drivers more highly trained and responsible for their actions? You have to agree that the vast majority of driver training courses offered to young folks today are mostly a JOKE that is not funny at all!

Lewster, when was the last time you saw mass demonstrations about us killing 40,000 of our own friends, neighbors, and family members with hundreds of thousands more injured annually?

Until there is that kind of ground swell support for greater traffic safety, do you really think that legislators are going out on a limb to tell significant numbers of voters that they're probably not going to be able to pass a driving skills test? I suspect that if we'd each spent half on drivers education what we each spend on auto sticker price to buy techno-solutions to crash safety, we'd have much safer highways and cars would cost half as much.

It's apparent, just from some of the posts in this thread that people love speed, and merely that they're breaking the law isn't sufficient to stop them. So, there are several parts to finding a solution: first is to not only cite or arrest the offender, but permanently seize the vehicle driven by anyone who violates the law in "x" degree, or who is unlicensed. That takes the ability of someone without a license away unless they steal a car. Folks who have cars will think twice about loaning them. Second is to make a driver actually prove their competence in order to get a driver's license. Third is to install nation-wide mass transit to take pressure off the highway system.

Our society, particularly as it relates to traffic laws is becoming seriously more and more lawless. Law enforcement alone can't force a society to conform, the society must be willing to live under it's own laws. When that society largely begins to refuse to do that, for whatever reason, anarchy reigns, and the innocent and still law-abiding people begin to suffer at the hands of the lawless.

I'm appalled at the numbers of our citizens who believe that traffic laws only apply to everyone else, but not them. "I don't like the law, so I don't have to follow it" seems to be a pretty common theme.

Roger

[Melody Ranch]

Beware of speed traps in Texs.

[85MH325]

Now THIS is a speed trap!

Roger

[Airstreamer67]

Last week, two drivers were killed in a head-on collision 10 miles from my house. Last night, in about the same location, four cars were involved in a wreck, fortunately not killing anyone unless someone subsequently dies from the injuries. I just returned from an RV trip to Texas, where I saw a burning tractor-trailer on I-20 after a multi-vehicle collision. A few months ago, I started up at a green light, went through the intersection, then noticed a car coming right through the red light where I was crossing just a couple of seconds before. I saw the driver's stop lights come on after he went through the intersection. He was probably cursing me for almost causing a collision, most likely on the cell phone.

It's really bad out there.

Good luck to all.