Something is going on: Airstream rollover three

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff

It's not uncommon.

I don't recall a week in the last 22 years where I haven't talked to someone who has had a trailer sway accident.

The internet forum bubble is real and people think their "experience" applies to every other instance on the road.

The fact is every trailer in the world is designed with an inherent problem in the system.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


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Just to clarify your statement, for the last 22 years (1,144 weeks) you have talked to someone every week who has had an accident due to sway.

[Sean Woodruff]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

Just to clarify your statement, for the last 22 years (1,144 weeks) you have talked to someone every week who has had an accident due to sway.

.


It may not be weekly but it's no less than 50 per year. And, MANY more who have come close. I talk to over 100 people a week and all of them have sway problems. It's the nature of how they come to talk to me.

For example, there have been 3 in the last week.


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[SteveSueMac]

RV industry sold 431K units in 2016. Maybe AS had 3750 travel trailers in that lot. Less than a percent. The AS design may be to the driver's benefit in terms of aerodynamics over an SOB - but they still do sway. And since they are less than a percent of total units shipped, 99% of those SOBs are out there swaying. If just 10% aren't hitched correctly (and judging by the amount of headlight in the sky units I see in my limited travels I guess 10% is being kind...) that's 43,000 units in some sort of trouble.

Just a Fermi guess on a napkin....

[tjdonahoe]

Every one who gets in trouble dropping off a pass blames the wind, icy conditions, the road, when in fact they do not know how to drive...especially those who set the brake controller on high and only use it on the down side...you let off the throttle before the top and go over easy, there is no race, unless you are tired of living,...that is why out here I always had 3/4 ton pickups, now have diesel, Ram, with the exhaust brake...you want the tow vehicle to weigh as much or more than the trailer to stay out of trouble, the speed limit signs do not mean to drive that fast...and I do know a little about it as I have been up and down these roads for the last 52 years in a big truck in all kinds of weather and never had any problems......

[PKI]

Originally Posted by Ted S.

-- snip -- The fact that no SOBs have rolled I would think is a freak thing.

Semis are reported to have been in wind accidents in this area.

This is only three events of significant notice, because they were Airstreams. The first had a tire fail. The second one had no explanation other than it was a rental. The last one was a rental, but now is reported to have had driver panic. Kind of betting that is a cause of many similar events, but not Airstream specific. With two rentals involved, maybe a training short fall, but long time RVers have events too.

Note these were both supposed to be 23s, but now one is reported to be a longer trailer. The last one certainly looks longer than 23 ft. Not a lot of facts provided. Not a lot of published information available.

Maybe the number of Airstreams in this area is part of the probability involved. We certainly saw more ASs in and around Yellowstone. However that seems a stretch.

What I can say is that the area is not normally intimidating. Grades are not excessive and neither are the curves. We did not find excessive winds but they are certainly reported, usually to the East, but prior post indicates this stretch as well.

My analysis is as many have suggested. Too little data to drive a conclusion and some inconsistency and suspect elements as well.

Slow down and drive with 100% attention is my take away. Pat

[Gamehawkers]

Too many variables to just guess.
I would rather deal in the facts.
However, on top of the things to suspect is pilot error.
Number 2 is the Tow vehicle Trailer brake controller not properly adjusted.
It is a huge contributor to jackknife and resulting overturn collisions. Many people new to towing have no clue how to set the trailer brakes properly.
If the trailer brakes are not applied with sufficient force, Every time you brake hard with your tow vehicle, the trailer will want to continue in a straight line and will push the rear of the tow vehicle around causing a jackknife. The issue is worse in sudden hard braking or wet pavement. It also causes excessive wear to the tow vehicle's brakes. On a steep down grade, repeated braking with the trailer brakes out of adjustment can cause excessive heat in the tow vehicle's brakes to such an extent that the brake fluid boils in the brake lines causing brake fade. This means significantly reduced braking force if not complete brake failure.
Number 3, Falling asleep and running off the edge of the pavement then making a sudden abrupt turning movement resulting in a loss of control and overturn is common on lonely straight roads.
Number 4 is improper loading of the trailer. If you put a lot of weight in the rear of the trailer you can reduce the down force on the hitch to the point where the trailer will experience excessive sway which can lead to a loss of control, a brown stain in your pants and an overturned Airstream.
Number 5 is catastrophic tire failure combined with a driver who panics and turns the steering wheel sharply resulting in a loss of control.
More often than not these events are the fault of the driver for failing to do do something he or she should do or doing something he should not do.
This is why they are called traffic collisions not traffic accidents.

[Gamehawkers]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Are you saying that every vehicle accident involves driver error?

Even the most skilled and experienced driver might be unable to control the rig under certain normal conditions, such as a tow vehicle tire blow out on the right front tire while turning left, on a road with a marginal camber set up (perhaps from a bump in the road).

Before the catastrophic blow out, no problem, but after the loss of the front tire above, I would bet that even a skilled stunt driver might lose control, even if he or she knew the blow out was coming.

Life is full of vehicle accidents which could have been prevented only by not being there IMO.

[ . . . A level of prescience with which few of us are blessed . . . . . . ]



Just sayin' . . .

As a retired professional traffic collision reconstructionist with 30 years of experience, I can state with confidence that you are in error.
I am not trying to twist your tail and piss you off but your example is complete garbage and does not reflect real world physics.
I realize when we are involved in a collision it is human nature to want to blame something else rather than face the hard truth that we made a poor choice and broke our toy. I realize that blaming anything and everything else rather than taking personal responsibility for our mistakes is less common today but it does not change the reality that you and you alone are at fault. The only actual traffic accident involves a bridge collapse while you are crossing, a tree or boulder falling on top of your vehicle without any warning.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Gamehawkers

. . .
The only actual traffic accident involves a bridge collapse while you are crossing, a tree or boulder falling on top of your vehicle without any warning.

And a sudden complete failure of a front tire on the tow vehicle in the middle of a turn [per the details in Post #22, quoted in your post] does not quality for this kind of exception?

Please explain.

Should the driver have stayed home?

Should he or she drive so slowly that a sudden front tire blowout would not cause a loss of control?

You summarily say without much explanation that "the reality [is] that you and you alone are at fault."

Why not when a tree falls on you, or a bridge collapses under you?

Why is a sudden tire blowout not the same?

Thanks,

Peter

[RandyNH]

Originally Posted by Gamehawkers

As a retired professional traffic collision reconstructionist with 30 years of experience, I can state with confidence that you are in error.
I am not trying to twist your tail and piss you off but your example is complete garbage and does not reflect real world physics.
I realize when we are involved in a collision it is human nature to want to blame something else rather than face the hard truth that we made a poor choice and broke our toy. I realize that blaming anything and everything else rather than taking personal responsibility for our mistakes is less common today but it does not change the reality that you and you alone are at fault. The only actual traffic accident involves a bridge collapse while you are crossing, a tree or boulder falling on top of your vehicle without any warning.

So a single vehicle, blowout and going off the road is called a collision? I'm afraid I must agree with Otra15 here.
Good thing you aren't a retired judge after 30 years or I get the impression the May be a lot of people in jail "because everybody's guilty of something"
This traffic collision reconstructionist thing, did you happen to work for an insurance company? That would definitely explain the driver is always at fault part.

[HeadWest]

A few data points I can share: The trailer would have been a 28' International. The rental company no longer rents 23's per their website. I'll look at what is on their lot when I'm back in Bozeman on Tuesday but I believe that is true (I live a half a mile from their location). They do rent Airstreams with bike racks on some of them, no rear hatches like the Eddie Baurers. The hitches have always been Reese dual cams.

As far as driver panic, that was in reference to the roll over in Michigan, not the ones on Bozeman pass.

For what it is worth, I'm towing with an undersized F150 towing my 28' International with many trips over this pass in question, and many times in heavy cross winds. I've never had a sway problem here or with any of my windy travels, many with fierce gusty cross winds. Although I have nothing to compare it to, I couldn't be more satisfied with using a Propride hitch.

All that being said, I'm very sorry to hear that this family went through such a terrible ordeal and hope they are all ok. I also feel bad for the rental agency to have to work through this and the public perception of a problem, even if they were not at all at fault.

Hopefully we will hear a few more facts on what happened and there can be less speculation.

[Ted S.]

Originally Posted by Gamehawkers

The only actual traffic accident involves a bridge collapse while you are crossing, a tree or boulder falling on top of your vehicle without any warning.

I would hazard to guess you were not the professional traffic collision reconstructionist on this wreck.

https://youtu.be/70WPOaWZQZI

[McDave]

Last week I was driving from Sacramento south on hwy 395. I was planning to stop in Bridgeport, but pulled off in a KOA in Walker instead. The gal at the desk asked me why I stopped there? I said, "the wind." She looked at me in puzzlement, and then went on about her business. By the time I had unhitched, the wind had died down. Stupid? Maybe. What difference does it really make? I did everything I wanted to do on that trip anyway. Pay attention to your intuition!

[HeadWest]

Good point on staying attention to your intuition. If it stops feeling "right", shut it down. The people I've done long distance motorcycle rides with have always agreed if anyone is not feeling it (weather, tired, whatever), call it a day and no one is going to give them a hard time.

Originally Posted by McDave

Last week I was driving from Sacramento south on hwy 395. I was planning to stop in Bridgeport, but pulled off in a KOA in Walker instead. The gal at the desk asked me why I stopped there? I said, "the wind." She looked at me in puzzlement, and then went on about her business. By the time I had unhitched, the wind had died down. Stupid? Maybe. What difference does it really make? I did everything I wanted to do on that trip anyway. Pay attention to your intuition!

[rmkrum]

There is no substitute for good situational awareness and proper setup and equipment. On our trips the checklist gets run before we head out. It's also a darn good idea to stop just because I am getting tired, the sun is in my eyes, the wind is up, or the weather is bad.

I'd rather arrive late, than to be known as "the late..." at my funeral.

There are three things in Airstreaming and aviation that are useless: altitude above you, fuel on the ground, and the back side of the power curve. Fort the AS, it's running out of room to maneuver or stop, running out of TV fuel, or running out of power on a steep climb.

I consider arriving safely more important than following the travel plan. Be careful out there.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

There is no substitute for good situational awareness and proper setup and equipment. On our trips the checklist gets run before we head out. It's also a darn good idea to stop just because I am getting tired, the sun is in my eyes, the wind is up, or the weather is bad.

I'd rather arrive late, than to be known as "the late..." at my funeral.

There are three things in Airstreaming and aviation that are useless: altitude above you, fuel on the ground, and the back side of the power curve. Fort the AS, it's running out of room to maneuver or stop, running out of TV fuel, or running out of power on a steep climb.

I consider arriving safely more important than following the travel plan. Be careful out there.

Good list. Being surrounded by other vehicles is evidence of RV driver screwup. Failure to use mirrors, in main.

Having less than 300' of space out ahead of one is cause for action. Etc.

But I'd disagree about a grade climb IF it is meant that one is climbing slowly. (It's the downgrade that matters).

There's nothing quite so silly as those worried about being slow in a grade ascent.

Shoot, I get on a 65-75 mph highway 3-4 times daily and am rarely above 35-mph. Don't ask about grades, ha!

It's a meaningless worry.

The potential problem? Others passing slow traffic 25-40/mph faster. What happened to common sense about speed discrepancy? The speed limit sign is worse than useless on ascents and descents.

.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by slowmover

. . .
Being surrounded by other vehicles is evidence of RV driver screwup.
. . .

What?

You have never been "surrounded by other vehicles" on any roads, because you are such a good driver that you are able to avoid all of them all the time?

[slowmover]

If one finds oneself on the Interstate with vehicles just ahead, alongside, and just behind, yes, it's that simple: driver failure.

Avoidance of risk has a high correlation to avoidance of traffic.

Pro Tip: use the mirrors.

Cut the travel speed by 7-8/mph. Resume when space re-established.

If one hasn't noticed that the morons travel in packs, they do. Management of space isn't difficult, but it will take practice.

But, this can't help if one chooses stupidly on travel speed. On a 70-mph road, the morons will be tailgating each other at or just above that limit. Commercial traffic will be at 64-65/mph.

So,

First, what is total emergency braking distance for ones rig? Please state that. Add to that perception and reaction time.

Second, what travel speed most easily produces that distance without effort on ones part?

Third, remaining in the travel lane offers more room to maneuver. That paved shoulder is there for that reason. The habit of passing in a poor performing rig is a bad habit. (Habits are the thing).

So, another pro tip: travel at or under 62-mph. Everyone else will get around. And it may be nearly a thousand miles before one has to pull out to pass. That was my experience over this past winter.

For someone serious, learn the difference between average speed and travel speed (engine run time versus distance). Higher travel speeds rarely produce significantly shorter times ESPECIALLY against the risk factors. (No one has taken me up on this. I suspect they know "reasonableness" fails against teenage-brain in the drivers seat. Hey, we've all been there).

Most of all, the lower speed doesn't require as much work. One has broader peripheral vision available, and isn't always having to slow for blind curves and hills (total stopping distance, remember?). Burns a lot less fuel.

By comparison, it's relaxing.

Which I thought was the point to vacation travel.

As this thread is ostensibly about a loss-of-control accident, the shorter in time & distance to below 50-mph, the better. These rigs ain't too great (even the best ones). Crosswind gusts are always best handled at lower speeds, as are emergency lane changes. TT drum brakes are actually effective all the way down to a stop from that speed. Etc.

.

[lsbrodsky]

Commercial traffic 64-65, where? I sure don't see that on I-95, 20, 40, 85 or any other 70 mph area around here. Big semi's are always at or above the posted limit.

Larry

[rodsterinfl]

"the wind." She looked at me in puzzlement, and then went on about her business. By the time I had unhitched, the wind had died down. Stupid? Maybe. What difference does it really make? I did everything I wanted to do on that trip anyway. Pay attention to your intuition!

Yes, it is important if something doesn't seem right. The wind is a force to contend with or, consideration for stopping.

My first out of town camping I unknowingly went to stay in a tropical storm area. The wind gusts were 40+ published. It was quite an adventure. I did not put the awning out! On the way home it was VERY intense. Semi trailers were traveling down the highway angled and would even blow into the other lanes. The Airstream is amazing in crosswinds I had little movement though we could hear the force and at times when the wind shifted to the front, the truck engine was roaring at 50mph. As long as you are careful gusty winds like that are drivable. I would not want to do it with a box trailer though- saw a few moving like semis all over the place.

[Gamehawkers]

Originally Posted by Ted S.

I would hazard to guess you were not the professional traffic collision reconstructionist on this wreck.



https://youtu.be/70WPOaWZQZI

If I had been the investigator, I would know what happened based upon science and facts not opinion.