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Old 06-16-2022, 03:14 PM   #21
Rivet Master
 
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DALLAS , TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetawA-S View Post
This is absolutely relevant to this discussion.
Sitting at the campsite, the radiant heat gain from the sun is what causes the “blast furnace” effect.
Going down the road, the heat gain is balanced by convective heat loss to the air blasting over the trailer (similar to blowing on food to cool it). If you run your A/C going down the road, as soon as it gets the inside temperature below the air temperature, that enhanced heat loss becomes enhanced heat gain. It costs more to run than in the campsite. The extended operation will not make your trailer any more comfortable than just turning it on as you get near your stop, and we all know energy is not free, especially when it’s coming from $5/gallon gasoline.

We all love the Fido’s, but let’s not overthink this.
Ah, good point. I forgot about conductive and convective heat gain/loss. In the scenario we are discussing, it's all about heat gain. So it would be tough to maintain the lower temperatures do to enhanced heat gain from the surrounding air when towing.
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Old 06-16-2022, 07:42 PM   #22
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Hi

Backing up a bit .....

If your A/C unit pulls 16A, that's at 120V. With a 100% efficient inverter, you would need 160A off of 12V to make that happen. If your 7 pin supplies 8A at 12V and the fridge uses roughly the much, they sort of cancel out.

Assuming the inverter is 90% efficient, you need about 176A in at 12V. 176 x 12 = 2.1 KW. That's a *lot* of solar panels or you are pulling down your batteries.

As noted in other posts, the trailer is a heat sponge while moving. If it's a hundred something outside, the A/C will be running near full time. This assumes you are after a "useful" temperature inside the trailer and not after 98 degrees .

If you have only 1KW of solar panels and they are running at 100% into a 100% efficient solar controller ( so about 2X better than you normally get), you are only down about 90A. If you have 600AH of lithium fully charged at the start of the day, after driving / sitting / whatever on the road for 8 hours, they will be dead. They aren't going to get much past the 6 hour mark. With less solar, this I going to happen sooner.

What to get a lot of amps from the tow vehicle? Do a deep dive on alternator ratings. Also spend some time watching "I blew out my alternator" videos. Simple answer is they are rated to put out their rated amps only under very limited circumstances. Figure on a *very* large beast if you want 180A all the time. Is that a 600A or a 1200A device? Who knows. You would need to do a lot of research.

Want to get the current from your alternator back from the truck to an inverter in the trailer? .... yikes .... Figure you have at least 30 and more likely 40 or 50 feet of run. Using 40 feet, that's an 80 foot loop. You want 5% loss? Ok, 0.6V at 180A is ...3.3 mili ohms. That gives you 3.3 / 80 = 0.04 miliohms per foot. 4/0 cable isn't big enough.

One answer to the wire gauge problem is to put the inverter in the front of the truck and run 20A at 120V back from there. This also lets you put in something like a 48V inverter and 48V alternator. The only gotcha is no big battery to handle things when you go to idle.

Fun !!!

Bob
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Old 06-16-2022, 08:24 PM   #23
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Well written assessment of the scenario Bob.

Exclusively pursuing this route would probably develop into a Pandora’s box containing all sorts of gremlins and unexpected challenges/limitations.

Not to mention the network array of interconnected components — the complexity of which would get out of hand for my taste.

Definitely more obtainable and realistic on a contained vehicle like a B van..
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Old 06-16-2022, 11:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanlb View Post
Well written assessment of the scenario Bob.

Exclusively pursuing this route would probably develop into a Pandora’s box containing all sorts of gremlins and unexpected challenges/limitations.

Not to mention the network array of interconnected components — the complexity of which would get out of hand for my taste.

Definitely more obtainable and realistic on a contained vehicle like a B van..
Not true at all. My installation is clean, roomy, with great access. I have 400A of lithium batteries, a 3000W Multiplus II with 10-50A shore input, Solar, DC-DC 12V@30A, an Onan generator with auto-change-over all feeding into it. The Multiplus will accept any of the power inputs in any combination and load compensate if needed. It is easily accessed from inside and outside. This setup is well documented and by all accounts extremely reliable. I would argue it is much better than any B van setup by far.
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Old 06-17-2022, 12:21 AM   #25
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I am very familiar with your system configuration — believe I actually took a detailed look at your coach when it was at the Wilton shop getting ceramic.

Doug did a fantastic job with your lounge area and I want to do the same to our coach at some point in the future.

I think Bob’s entry related more to the impracticality of relying on a tow vehicle alternator and solar panels to sustain long duration air conditioning use and house loads while also being able to quickly recharge/maintain your battery bank.

B vans don’t have to deal with as many voltage drop issues due to the proximity of system components to the alternator. As Bob mentioned, a logical approach might be to invert to AC close to the tv alternator with the caveat of efficiency loss and other downstream consequences such as redundancies occurring in other coach based systems.

No question the MultiPlus will dump gobs of current on high demand appliances — but without shore power or a generator there’s not a very practical way of going off grid in the southwest desert for any extended period of time if consistently operating the ac system(s).

Believe it works out to about 1/2 hour of air conditioner operation for every 100ah battery. So in that kind of a circumstance, you’d inevitably be on a glide slope till your batteries are depleted.
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Old 06-17-2022, 08:07 AM   #26
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I believe there is often a slight tendency to get into the weeds on this forum. I don't think any of us that boondock would not consider the dynamics of trying to sustain our ability to stay in a desert or any hot setting for any length of time. I use the system to cool the trailer down prior to stops or setup. I might run it late in the afternoon just to take the edge off. If the battery is low I run the generator for a little bit. I do not, nor would I, camp in high heat without shore power. An Airstream in particular is one of the worst for thermal management in high heat and direct sun. Our larger RVision (30' Trailbay with 16' center slide) box trailer with hard-sided sandwiched foam constructed walls was significantly more thermally efficient. We only had one 1,500 unit and it would keep the trailer cool under any conditions.
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Old 06-17-2022, 08:23 AM   #27
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You likely don’t have anywhere near the alternator or wiring in a Cayenne to do what you propose through a 7 pin on a Cayenne.

Where are you going to store 1290aH of batteries? Why so much?
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Old 06-17-2022, 01:51 PM   #28
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I likewise question the utility of such a large batt. Questions for me would be: How much weight? How much space? And what's the sustainability of keeping something like that maintained and charged?

It's easy enough to have a party and really pull down the battery. But what's the answer for tomorrow, and the day after that?

To answer that last question, I really believe in more solar. Something like a two to one ratio in solar watts versus amp hours. That creates a more sustainable solution.

Augmenting power with the tow vehicle can really help. I agree with generally 100 amp hour per hour of AC use. But if the tow vehicle and solar can generate something like 50-80 amps that can double, or triple the runtime of the AC. It also confidently answers the question of sustainability.
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Old 06-17-2022, 02:50 PM   #29
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Please...
As a former science teacher, many of these posts are causing me pain. May I suggest:
1) Include the units with your numbers! What is a 1,500 air conditioner? If it's BTU/hr, that is pretty tiny. Maybe 15,000 BTU/hr? Or 1,500 W, which would be an uncommonly efficient smaller size unit...
2) Always specify voltage when talking about current draw. Posts that mention 16 A A/C power draw and 8 A DC-DC current from the TV in the same sentence are confusing as heck to anyone but the person posting. (Though it's possible that the person posting is equally confused. This forum is all about learning...)
Thanks!
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Old 06-17-2022, 04:08 PM   #30
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Sorry, my bad. Phone typing in a hurry I sometimes make mistakes.

You are right though, someone might not realize we are talking about Airstream AC units which are typically between 12,000 or 15,500 BTU. Somewhere in that range. Not 1,500 which as your point out is extremely small or not relevant at all.

Our larger RVision (30' Trailbay with 16' center slide) box trailer with hard-sided sandwiched foam constructed walls was significantly more thermally efficient. We only had one "15,000 BTU" unit and it would keep the trailer cool under any conditions.
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Old 06-17-2022, 09:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetawA-S View Post
Please...
As a former science teacher, many of these posts are causing me pain. May I suggest:
1) Include the units with your numbers! What is a 1,500 air conditioner? If it's BTU/hr, that is pretty tiny. Maybe 15,000 BTU/hr? Or 1,500 W, which would be an uncommonly efficient smaller size unit...
2) Always specify voltage when talking about current draw. Posts that mention 16 A A/C power draw and 8 A DC-DC current from the TV in the same sentence are confusing as heck to anyone but the person posting. (Though it's possible that the person posting is equally confused. This forum is all about learning...)
Thanks!
Yeah, we were mixing up the amps at 120v and amps at 12v and assuming that everyone could decode what we meant :-)

I always focus on watts as the power consumption is really what we care about.

Let me make a stab at clearing things up a bit. My original motivation for a large battery bank was to protect family pets when I'm away from the trailer in case there is a prolonged power outage at an RV park or when I'm boondocking in warmer weather and we don't want to take the pets along on a hike. When I figured out what kind of system I would need to install in order to make this goal a reality, I realized there might be enough capacity to try some other stuff like cooling the trailer while I'm towing it. So, I'm going to kind of mix up those two goals in the discussion below. Please forgive me for that.

Recent model airstreams (in specific the 2022 model year of my trailer) can have one or two A/C units if they are 25 ft or larger. The base model has a 15KBtu unit and the airstream customer can add an optional 13KBtu unit (I think it's actually a 13.5KBtu unit, but that is a nit for this discussion).

The 13KBtu unit is the one that I will run via the inverter + lithium batteries. This unit consumes about 1.5kW when the compressor cycles on and about 1.8kW for a cold start (if an easystart unit is installed).

The cold start is not repetitive, so the 1.5kW number is the target for this analysis (the actual consumption is a range of 1.3kW - 1.5kW depending on fan speed, etc, but we'll go with 1.5kW for a worst case analysis).

As for the refrigerator, the 12v DC compressor supposedly pulls 4A when running (8A peak to start the compressor, but that is for a very short period of time so we'll focus on the 4A number) so the steady state power consumption is 12v * 4A = 48Watts.

So the total load for 13KBtu and fridge in a steady state situation is 1,548Watts.

Now for possible sources of power when towing:

700watt solar array => assume actual output is 400W
7 pin connector => minimum spec is 8A * 12v = 96W

So we end up with a sad situation in my default case where consumption is ~1,550kW and available power is ~500W

The Victron multi-plus II can make up the 1,050W shortfall from the battery bank and/or we can provide additional power from the tow vehicle via other possible modifications.

Pulling additional power from the tow vehicle is limited by the wire size for additional dedicated supply that is dictated by the 12v supply consideration. From a practical perspective, this is probably limited to another 120watts or so for 10 gauge wiring. Let's ignore this option for the remainder of the discussion.

So, if the inverter is pulling 1050watts from my battery bank, how long can my battery bank last?

Let's first address the concern that some folks have expressed with respect to the size and mass of such a large battery bank.

The most recent generation of Victron batteries have significantly higher power density in terms of storage capacity and unit volume. The latest batteries can hold 330aH (4220W-h) and weigh 66lbs. They consume 1196 cubic inches of volume for each battery.

The older batteries held 300aH (3840W-h), weigh 112.5lbs, and consume 2645 cubic inches of volume.

As compared to the last generation LiFePO4 batteries, 4 of the new batteries can hold 10% more power (16,880W-h) in less 65% less physical volume and weigh 42% less in total. Pretty amazing really.

2nd side discussion is how you will maintain the battery bank charge when a 27ft trailer can only fit about 700Watts of solar panels on it. Well, any shortfall will be handled by a pair of Honda EU2200i generators (producing 32 amps at full steady state load at 120v = 3840W) that will be used to top up the batteries every evening (when necessary). We'll come back to the generator topic later.

So, how long can a 16,880W-h battery bank last when pulling 1050Watts from it in a steady state (let's ignore inverter efficiency which is quite high anyway)? Let's assume that we don't charge over 90% of full capacity and do not discharge below 10% of capacity in order to ensure longevity of the batteries. So that leaves 16,880W-h * 0.8 = 13,504W-h of usable capacity.

13,504W-h/1050W = 12.86 hours.

Now to complete the generator discussion... Let's say that we run one HVAC from sundown until sunup (or we tow all day long) and we discharge the battery bank down to the 10% reserve capacity threshold. For simplicity, let's ignore loads and other charging sources (e.g. solar). The pair of Honda generators can restore 13,504W-h in 13,504W-h/3840W = 3.5 hours. That's the beauty of lithium vs lead acid battery chemistries. Lithium batteries can be charged at nearly full rate until nearly full (about 98% capacity) unlike lead acid batteries that have to spend many hours being "trickle charged" at lower current during the absorption phase of battery charging in order to go from the 70-80% of capacity level to a full capacity condition

So, a large battery bank is quite a bit more practical with the new batteries that were released in April of this year. In real usage scenarios, I expect that running the generators for an hour or two a day would make up for any deep discharge events that the solar panels cannot make up.

I hope this helps clear up the muddy waters just a little bit.

Yeah, a battery bank this size is sort of ridiculous. But if I want to be able to run one 13.5KBtu A/C and a fridge for 6 - 8 hours during a power outage in order to protect my pets while I'm playing tourist (or I want to go hiking in warmer weather while boondocking without taking the pets along on the hike) and still have a healthy safety margin for any reduction in battery capacity with age and just a good safety margin in general, I'll need a battery bank about this size. When I'm responsible for the life of two, four legged family members, I'm not willing to take risks. And, I'll pretty much never have to worry about counting watts
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Old 06-17-2022, 09:53 PM   #32
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IIRC, you were the guy that was worried about OEM weight and was going to swap the axles out before mile 1?

If so with all of what you propose, you better find a way to add a 3rd axle as well.
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Old 06-18-2022, 07:27 AM   #33
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IIRC, you were the guy that was worried about OEM weight and was going to swap the axles out before mile 1?

If so with all of what you propose, you better find a way to add a 3rd axle as well.
Yup, guilty as charged

I am tracking weight very carefully. The weight for each individual item that I have planned to add to the trailer is being tracked in a spreadsheet. Initially, I am tracking the shipping weight of each item before I order it. However, I have also been re-weighing everything at home once I remove all of the packing materials. I'm even weighing the wires that I will be adding to the trailer

Many folks are installing 400ah banks (4x, 100ah batteries) that weigh about 50lbs each = 200lbs total. As I mentioned in my last posting to this thread, the latest batteries are much lighter for a given capacity, so I'm able to install 1290ah of batteries that weigh 260lbs in total. That's not much more weight than many folks are installing via older generation batteries, but I'll have over 3x the battery capacity.

I plan to keep the total trailer weight within the manufacturer specified GVWR of the trailer. But, this also means that the trailer axles would also be at their specified limit and I'm not comfortable with that. So I'm upgrading the axles from a 3800lb rating (the Airstream spec) to 4200lb rated axles. After I'm done with the axle swap, if the trailer is at the GVWR = 7600lbs, the new axles will have a combined rating of 8400lbs and I'll have 800lbs of safety margin on the axles. Probably a bit of overkill, but safety margin is important to me (and to the other folks that I share the road with).

I was talking with some folks that do custom modifications to trailers (Ultimate Airstream for example) and assessing the added weight for some of the popular options for a 27ft airstream like the "grand lounge". It's pretty common for folks to add a grand lounge (300lbs), 400ah lithium + solar + inverter (400lbs) and convert half of the wardrobe to drawers (150lbs), creating a total load of 900 additional pounds on a trailer with a placard on the side that says that the gross cargo capacity is 926lbs. So, these folks are only planning on putting 76lbs of personal gear in the trailer and carrying zero fresh water? What this means is that a lot of folks are probably not paying attention to their trailer loading and are running down the road with a trailer that is grossly overloaded. In fact, the Ultimate airstream folks were surprised that I asked about the weight and had to spend some time weighing various components and coming up with some weight estimates for me. I ended up having to pass on some of the desired upgrades strictly due to the weight limits of the trailer.
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Old 06-18-2022, 07:36 AM   #34
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Original post:
Please...
As a former science teacher, many of these posts are causing me pain. May I suggest:
1) Include the units with your numbers! What is a 1,500 air conditioner? If it's BTU/hr, that is pretty tiny. Maybe 15,000 BTU/hr? Or 1,500 W, which would be an uncommonly efficient smaller size unit...
2) Always specify voltage when talking about current draw. Posts that mention 16 A A/C power draw and 8 A DC-DC current from the TV in the same sentence are confusing as heck to anyone but the person posting. (Though it's possible that the person posting is equally confused. This forum is all about learning...)


Followup:
Thanks! To the members who cleaned up and clarified their posts, thanks, much appreciated. You raised your grades from a C- to a solid A.
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Old 06-18-2022, 12:36 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetawA-S View Post
Original post:
Please...
As a former science teacher, many of these posts are causing me pain. May I suggest:
1) Include the units with your numbers! What is a 1,500 air conditioner? If it's BTU/hr, that is pretty tiny. Maybe 15,000 BTU/hr? Or 1,500 W, which would be an uncommonly efficient smaller size unit...
2) Always specify voltage when talking about current draw. Posts that mention 16 A A/C power draw and 8 A DC-DC current from the TV in the same sentence are confusing as heck to anyone but the person posting. (Though it's possible that the person posting is equally confused. This forum is all about learning...)


Followup:
Thanks! To the members who cleaned up and clarified their posts, thanks, much appreciated. You raised your grades from a C- to a solid A.
I might have been sloppy in a couple of my replies. I hope in the more recent postings to this thread, I have been more successful at being diligent with units.

FYI, whenever someone is talking about the interface to the tow vehicle, most of the audience understands that we are talking about 12v in that scenario. Unless you have a Semi-Tractor-Trailer rig (those run at 24v), we are dealing with 12v.

And if someone is talking about a DC-DC converter on the tow vehicle interface to the trailer, they are talking about creating isolation and voltage conversion between the 12v based system on the tow vehicle (the tow vehicle is using lead acid batteries that are "full" at 12.6v) and the travel trailer lithium system (that is typically at a "full" state of charge at 13.8v). In addition to isolation and voltage conversion, the DC-DC chargers that pull power from the tow vehicle also provide lithium compatible charging profiles (as opposed to the tow vehicles alternator, which most emphatically do not).
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:28 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012FB View Post
Not true at all. My installation is clean, roomy, with great access. I have 400A of lithium batteries, a 3000W Multiplus II with 10-50A shore input, Solar, DC-DC 12V@30A, an Onan generator with auto-change-over all feeding into it. The Multiplus will accept any of the power inputs in any combination and load compensate if needed. It is easily accessed from inside and outside. This setup is well documented and by all accounts extremely reliable. I would argue it is much better than any B van setup by far.
Where did you mount the generator or is it in the bed of the truck?
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Old 06-22-2022, 09:53 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012FB View Post
Our onboard Onan Generator will run both AC units going down the road just like your class A. Have not really had a need to have both AC units going, but it is there if needed. If boondocking we run the AC 30-60 minutes before arrival and let the Solar and Generator if needed replenish the batteries.
Where is your built in Onan located ?
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Old 06-22-2022, 02:38 PM   #38
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Not sure what the need for this is. I'm able to cool down my Airstream in a mater of minutes with both AC's running. Once I unhitch and connect to shore power. Is this for boondocking?
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Old 06-22-2022, 03:06 PM   #39
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Where is your built in Onan located ?
Airkrafters (https://airkrafters.com/) sells a mount that goes where the spare tire is located.

They also offer a kit to mount the spare tire elsewhere and recommend the 3" lift kit to maintain clearance.
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Old 06-22-2022, 03:22 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by B17drvr View Post
Where did you mount the generator or is it in the bed of the truck?
Where the spare tire was. The remote start is just inside the door. I did have a 3” lift installed by the dealer prior to delivery. It is fully integrated into the Multiplus II. There is also a way to program auto start and stop based on the battery level but I have not had time to wire and program it yet. It is a fabulous addition to the trailer. Allows for carefree harvest host and boondocking stays. When programed it could also kick in if shore power was lost. I just throw the spare in the truck if I remember it.
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