Packing a Gun, Mister~

[canny_banjo_man]

Our hearts go out to U too, 4the sad loss of Yr Brother...

When I totaled the hire vehicle back in 2002, in Orlando, the police officer was VERY NICE about it all, no-one got hurt, except the brand new 7seater van, however I had to fill in a few details, and were advised to remove all of our posessions from the vehicle, the officer took me to one side, and asked me if I was carrying....
Drink, Drugs...or Firearms...naturally I was honest and replied NO.
I was a little shocked by him asking me this, but I was in AMERICA...now over here in England...we DO NOT carry guns, we are NOT supposed to have any...yet 186 people were injured by firearms !!!!.....I must admit, sometimes I wish I had one...it sure would stop the *%"_=&=* parking his truck, blocking my driveway.... .
Good topic, I found this one quite interesting....jus for the record, I used to shoot small bore 2.2, pistol/rifle at a local shooting club, for abt 3 years, I shot 4 matchcards, for the club competitions, although we did'nt ever win a great deal, it was the taking part that counted, and I realy enjoyed it, but I don't think I would carry a gun, if I had a choice...Chris.....

[davidz71]

Bruce,
Forrest and JohnHD have made good points concerning the Glock. You have to have excellent trigger finger control with that weapon and that is something you do not achieve unless you shoot often and run yourself through scenarios. I know one FFL dealer/gunsmith who shipped 12 Glocks to a PD for a 2 week period. Four of the officers had accidental discharges and were struck by the bullets. Obviously there was a lack of training issue as I see it. That gunsmith has designed a manual safety for the Glock which he is marketing and is installing for a number of PDs. I believe that you can go up to 11 lb. on the trigger pull of the Glock with the right combination of parts. By the way, one officer from a small town outside Nashville, TN. had someone change his 5 lb. trigger to a 3.5 competition trigger. It makes for a sweet combination on a target range but is trouble on the street. The officer was retrieving his loaded weapon from a lockbox outside a vehicle trapgate and it slipped out of his hand. It hit on the back of the slide, discharged and the bullet entered just under the knee. The officer took over 100 pts. of blood and lost his leg. I always recommend a good 4" revolver, really like the 2 1/2" mdl. 19 or 66 Smith & Wesson 357 revolvers, and when someone has become proficient with it then try out an automatic if they want to move up. This takes additional training of clearing stoppages (failure to fire or a stovepiped round) so that you do not end up with an auto paperweight.

[davidz71]

Forrest,
I'm in the middle of my OC pepper spray recertification through Def-Tec and remember that pepper spray designed to repel bears has .35 capsacin and that designed for humans is .24. There was a statement in my manual that it was a violation of Federal law to spray a human with the .35 bear repellent. If that was all I had then I would spray them and worry about the consequences later if I had to.

[wallybyam]

Craig, Forrest does in fact make good points. But in reply to your remarks about trigger finger control, my policy is to NOT place my finger on the trigger until I am ready to fire, and even if I did, I feel that I, or most any experienced and capable shooter has the control necessary to only fire when ready. As to a safety, the Glock DOES have a safety, it just happens to be on the trigger. I don't believe that a properly functioning Glock would fire when or if dropped on its slide or anywhere else unless the trigger safety is jammed, inoperative or otherwise activated. It has been explicitly designed to prevent this.

I have several high quality revolvers, and for defensive purposes, much prefer the Glock. You very very seldom see a police or military person with a revolver. As most of our police officers (Forrest excluded, as it seems that he might be a little "above average") and military personnel are certainly "average", they are testimony to the fact that the average shooter can develope the additional skill required for safe and effective use of a semi-automatic handgun.

I also have a Sig P232 380 cal. semi-automatic, that is generally my weapon of choice, because of it's size and weight. This weapon is a double action pistol with an exposed hammer and decocking lever. This pistol does not have a safety, other than the hammer resting above and away from the firing pin. I feel that this weapon would be more prone than the Clock to firing upon being dropped on the back of the slide, due to the exposed hammer and the fact that if the hammer strikes the firing pin, the weapon WILL fire. Also, I always have a little feeling of dread when using the decocking lever to lower the hammer. At that time one is REALLY putting his trust in the mechanical function of the pistol to prevent accidental discharge.

Just some thoughts of my own.

Bruce

[wallybyam]

I went back and read your post again. "Four of twelve officers had accidental discharges and were struck by bullets"? I don't believe that for a moment. If four of the twelve officers were struck by bullets, then they were shooting at each other. This is an example of the untruths and exaggerations that characterize the "antigun" movement.

Bruce

[Forrest]

Davidz71,

The feds have more rules and regulations than a lawyer can keep track of. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a Federal "law" saying don't spray humans with bear repellant, but you know, anytime you spray a human with anything you'd better be able to say it was done in self defense and that you were in fear of your life or physical well-being or that of another. Otherwise, you've committed an unlawful assault. I'm not advocating spraying any animal or bear or human with bear repellant without a very good reason. Everyone should know that even in self-defense you can be arrested and charged. Self-defense is only an affirmative defense to the charge of assault (or worse). Self-defense, whether it be with a frying pan, a knife, an aerosol, a stick, or a gun will not necessarily save you from being arrested, charged and tried in a court of law. And once you are in court, as a defendant, the true meaning of the word "trial" becomes clear to you. Additionally, self-defense does not have to be proven or disproved by the prosecution - the defendant has the burden of proving self-defense. I can say this with confidence because I've been there, on both sides of the court room. So, word to the wise - think before you act, and think after you act.

[RREGESTER]

To reply to a couple of comments. One reply reference short barreled shot guns as being handy with a barrel length less then 20". Don't go less then 18" or this is a fed crime.

The other commenr is about the light trigger pull of a Glock and a NY trigger. Why not Just buy a SIG they are alos high Austrian Quality (and prettier) and I seem to shoot a tighter patern. Besides can you picture Wyat Earp trying to pistol whip someone with a plastic gun. Excuse my humor

[joecj76]

Les Baer custom 45, just like my americam express.......don't leave home without it!

[smallfry]

I've been gone off fishing for a while but was pleasantly surprised to read the thread on carry a gun. Wish I had been here to register in the poll. A big Yes Indeed I do - and it saved my little self twice. Now i am a NRA instructor and have taught approximately 85 women to handle a handgun for self-defense. This skill enables women to participate in sports such as fishing (in remote areas); hiking; traveling in their Airstreams!! In general, to live their lives with confidence and safety.
Wonderful advice from Forrest - if you're going to carry, get the best training you can get and practice. Personally, with a lot of practice and experience, I prefer the Glock but remember the old quote "Beware the Man (woman?) with One Gun" - in other words, get REAL familiar with one good, dependable gun.
Thanks to everyone who participated in the thread without name-calling, hysteria, and all the other negative behavior that usually accompanys any discussion of firearms. What a fine group.
Jo Ann

[Forrest]

Jo Ann,

Good for you, and thanks! You're doing a real service by being a NRA instructor. You also bring up an excellent point. While camping or fishing in remote areas, or for that matter any area where law enforcement can't be summoned within five minutes or less, you are on your own when it comes to self-defense. The peace of mind knowing that you can defend yourself provides a greater degree of freedom to go where you want, when you want than if you were unarmed.

Forrest

[John]

Forrest,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on:

The peace of mind knowing that you can defend yourself provides a greater degree of freedom to go where you want, when you want than if you were unarmed.

I've traveled through out this country(backpacking in some really remote areas), Canada, England, Ireland and Puerto Rico with a GREAT degree of freedom without carrying a firearm.

Peace of mind and freedom I believe comes from within, not from carrying a firearm.

Would I be able to defend myself better if I carried a firearm, probably so, but it doesn't provide me with any greater comfort, peace or freedom. Having a firearm next to me means that I'm preparing for a defensive situation, which would diminish a peaceful situation.

If carrying a firearm brings more peace and freedom to you and your family, then by all means carry it. I just wanted to share with you that we can travel with a great sense of freedom and peace without one.

Respectfully-John

[Forrest]

John,

You've taken what I've said somewhat out of context. It was a reply to Jo Ann, who stated that twice being armed has kept her safe. I'm glad that you have been able to go about your life unarmed with an inner peace of mind. Carrying a weapon is a responsibility. Nearly everyone in this thread has said so, and being a responsibility it can be disruptive of the inner peace you speak of. But you need to look beyond yourself. Perhaps you've simply been lucky, or maybe you've had good karma, but how confident would you be if you weren't a man? What if you had been victimized previously in a way that destroyed the confidence and peace of mind you say you have. Your world could easily be different. As a police officer I've had more dealings with victims than with the criminals who victimized them. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a victim say something to the effect that they'd never been victimized before, or how they couldn't understand why anyone would do this to them when they've always been a good person. And while bad things do happen, I'm not going to say that we should be always paranoid. Nor have I said everyone needs to be armed at all times. What I say is use common sense, and don't be naive. If you carry a weapon, do as Jo Ann suggested: be familiar enough with it to be comfortable with it. Otherwise, it will be disruptive to one's peace of mind. Unlike some extremists I don't think guns are for everyone, and I'm not just talking about criminals.

Forrest

[John]

Forrest,

When I 1st read your reply to Jo Ann, I did take your ending statement out of context. But after reading your reply to my post, I understand your point and agree with it 100%.

Thanks-John

[Pick]

Capsacin, the active ingredient used in pepper spray is naturally produced by hot peppers. Pepper heat is measured in "Scoville Units". Jalapeno peppers are around 2500-6500 Scoville units, Tobasco peppers are around 80,000, I think, but Tobasco Sauce itself is rated around 2700 S.U. The hottest pepper in the world, according to the Guiness Book of World Records is the "Red Savina Habanero", which we raise commercially on our farm, is rated at 577,000 Scoville Units!! Orange habs vary between 150,000-300,000 units. Now, with that in mind, pure 100% capsacin is rated at 16,000,000 scoville units!!!! Now, I am not sure how pepper spray used for defensive purposes rates on the scoville scale. Might .25 pepper spray be rated at 4 million scoville units? If so, I doubt that one would be able to tell the difference between .25 and .34 pepper spray! One of the hottest hot sauces known to man is called "Vicous Viper", it is rated at 270,000 S.U. and is so hot, it is practically unusable. Sold as a novelty item, more than a cooking condiment. I tried a couple of drops once, and it was pure hell, I'll never try it again! Now to the main point of this post, capsacin, is, more or less harmless, in it's natural state. While being sprayed with pepper spray is extremely painfull, and makes your skin turn red, like it has been burned, it is really a trick. The capsacin is, in effect tricking your nerve endings into thinking they are sensing extreme heat. Your nerves tell the brain they are sensing pain and the brain sends more blood flow to those areas. This could also trigger asthma attacks and possible heart attacks to those suceptable, due to shock more than anything. So while the capsacin itself is reletively harmless, the effects it can cause could be dangerous. Capsacin is purported to have many health benefits, which I won't dwell on here.

To keep this post on topic, I will say that while I own several firearms, I do not as a rule take them with us on our camping trips except to one particular campground where there is a lot of wildlife. Instead I arm myself with several bottles of hot sauce that we keep in the Airstream's refridgerator.

[John]

While backpacking in WY & MT, I carried bear spray/deterrent. I always tried to make my presence know as I was hiking, but I really don't put alot of faith/trust in these sprays.

If I was hiking in some of Alaska's better known grizzly area's, I would rather have a firearm that's able to take down with one shot. Grizzly's are just too fast and powerful to carry anything less.

Pick- Can you answer the following:

Active Ingredients:
Capsaicin & related capsaicinoids 2%
Inert ingredients 98%
I wonder what the Inert ingredients are?

Some of my friends suggested that I keep this in my night stand, but since the trailer is enclosed, I feel that I'd probably be over come by it too.

John

[canny_banjo_man]

John.
Good evening to you, I read a book awhile ago, by Bill Bryson..." A Walk In The Woods "...Now in this book, which is very good indeed, ( If none of U have read it...U realy missing out...), I read where it goes on abt BEARS, FACTS...Basicaly what happened was a hunter shot a black bear, he got his partner to take a photo, whilst he posed beside it, he knelt down, and gave his bestest pose, when in the bears dying breath, she raised up her huge arm, and lashed out, the guy had half of his face torn away from his scull, the photo never lies...so if U ever be in the same pickle as he was...be careful...very careful...Chris.....

[John]

Chris,

I've always tried to make enough noise to warn the bears that I'm coming through and I would only shoot a bear as a last resort. I have never carried a firearm while hiking in the lower 48. My comment was that if I was in a remote grizzly area in Alaska, only then would I carry one.

While hiking on the Appalachian Trail, I came around a bend and there were 2 black bears feeding on a berry bush. When they saw me, they both stood up, turned their heads sideways and gave me the most curious look. I slowly started backing around the bend, quitely talking to them. Once around the bend, I started clapping my hands and waited a few minutes.
When I started back down the trail, they were gone and I sang and clapped my hands for about 2 miles. The berries were really blooming in this section and I didn't want to meet any more that day !!!

John

[Road Ruler]

Hey John... Would you say your singing was so bad that it scared off the bears or was it your clapping????

[John]

Wayne,

It was definitely my singing!! I remember when my daughter was about 4 or 5 and we were driving some where and I was singing along with the radio. My daughter said, "Daddy, can you please stop making that noise!"

Out of the mouth of babes!!!

John

[Pick]

John, I would guess that the inert ingredients would be mostly oil of some kind. The oil would spread into the nooks and crannies and mix with existing skin oil maximizing the contact with skin of the intended victim. Oil is harder to remove, than a water based substance, so the effect would last longer.