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wheel interested · 02-18-2006, 08:10 PM

I think the new Chevies are pretty cool in that they are flex fuel vehicles (E85) and can use renewable resources as fuel. Any comments on this?

Anon · 02-18-2006, 08:34 PM

GM has made E-85 vehicles for about 6 years now.
Ford has made the FFV (Flexible Fuel Vehicle) for about the same amount of time too.
DCX has a few, not many. They will be offering more in the very near future.
Combine this with the new six-speed automatic transmissions and you have a powerful "green" combination.
I am currently working on the new GM FWD six-speed transmission project. This is an exciting time in power train history.
If you would like to read more about E-85 fuels you can go here: http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

warbler5 · 02-18-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel interested

I think the new Chevies are pretty cool in that they are flex fuel vehicles (E85) and can use renewable resources as fuel. Any comments on this?

It will be way cool once there are sufficient refueling locations that carry E85! I wonder if the price of the E85 fuel will be any less than regular gasoline....unless it is, I fear will go the way of the Beta VCR.

2airishuman · 02-18-2006, 09:02 PM

hi pattersontoo and wheel i'

did the general skip 06 models in the truck/suv division?

i noticed ads in the local rag this week for heavily discounted 05s and the new 07s....but didn't see any 06s listed for the big trucks and suvs.

what's the story?

the big 5 will all be doing flex fuels......as fast as you can say...."flux capacitor" from back to the future.........

vw just signed a big deal/agreement to work with shell oil to futher the ethanol movement.....they are developing fuel plants that will recycle all types of cellulose (grass clipping, paper, wood fibers, agricultural waste, banana peels....) into the ultra clean fuels.

these recycling plants will apparently be a 90% efficient process and the fuel a 90% combustion product....so it will not be like ethanol from corn....which we all know isn't a very efficient process...with cost or substrate.....

gm already has a few tow capable models that are fuel/electric hybirds. dodge has a diesel/electric 3/4 ton with a built in 12kw generator.

i expect my next puller will be a diesel/electric hybird or ethanol/propane/electric hybird....in about 3-4 years....if i can afford it.

i've already started saving coffee grounds and banana peels....

so no 06s?

cheers
2air'

wheel interested · 02-18-2006, 09:05 PM

Thanks Lou. Yeah I am new at this.

I just watched a gm video so I got psyched. I guess they said the first time they had so many in the lineup? Not sure now. However I still think it's a good idea. Hate being totally PI driving around a big SUV when people don't realize it's your TV. This will make me feel better. We need a new tow vehicle so we are looking around and I am reading up here and there. I'll go read your link now.

Is the fuel more expensive?
Is it readily available?
Are there disadvantages?
It says it gives more horsepower than gas?

How about this for a new TV?

wheel interested · 02-18-2006, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

hi pattersontoo and wheel i'

did the general skip 06 models in the truck/suv division?

i noticed ads in the local rag this week for heavily discounted 05s and the new 07s....but didn't see any 06s listed for the big trucks and suvs.

what's the story?

2air'

You must be asking Lou that about 06s? Thing is we will probably have to order to get what we want, you know we vertically challenged people need those special pedals.

Hubby thinks the new 900 platform is the way to go. I haven't gotten that far to know what that is yet, still working on WB and big blocks, and trannies, and differentials.

markdoane · 02-18-2006, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

. . . . vw just signed a big deal/agreement to work with shell oil to futher the ethanol movement.....they are developing fuel plants that will recycle all types of cellulose (grass clipping, paper, wood fibers, agricultural waste, banana peels....) into the ultra clean fuels.

these recycling plants will apparently be a 90% efficient process and the fuel a 90% combustion product....so it will not be like ethanol from corn....which we all know isn't a very efficient process...with cost or substrate.....

2air'

1. The big deal that was signed by VW, Shell, and Iogen was to do a joint economic analysis. No committment to building anything.

2. The process that Iogen has been working on is not as efficient as the current corn ethanol process. Someday it will be, but not in this decade. I hope it happens sooner.

3. The end product is exactly the same as ethanol from corn. It uses a different enzyme, developed by Purdue and leased to Iogen, to break down cellulose into xylose. From there the process is the same as the corn ethanol process.

4. The big advantage is that the process can use any cellulosic material such as wood chips, corn stalks, or switch grass, as mentioned by GW in his State of the Union speech. That removes a big problem with corn ethanol, which is the same problem that almost killed the Brazilian sugar ethanol process when they had a few years of poor sugar cane crops.

2airishuman · 02-19-2006, 01:04 AM

hi markdoane

right you are......excellent!!!
are you in this business? what with knowing the purdue to iogen connection? my interest was from the investment side...with all 3-4 of the players.

i'd have been more detailed in providing the info...just didn't think anyone here would be much interested....other than the 'turning straw into gold' angle....

sorry i missed the s.o.t.u address this year.....

yes, yes it's ethanol and ethanol is ethanol......as ogden would say...

if/when they move forward....it would likely be 3-5 years before the end product becomes available....but here are a couple of the positives......it makes ethanal more than just a midwesterners issue......and the ethanol is a cleaner way to meet emissions goals than the variety of chemicals currently produced...that end up in the water/food chain. and shell is a big company as is vw...so having that sort of distribution potential (shell) with a car company that wants to engineer/optimize the drivetrains with the end fuel in mind....well that just cool...imo.

i am constantly impressed with the knowledge here and the wide variety of topics the folks here understand....

yet another reason i like this group so much...and it makes sharing thoughts here all the more enjoyable....

i'm not a big follower of green fuel issues....but here is a website that seems to cover all of these issues nicley......
http://www.greencarcongress.com/topics.html

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004...commerica.html

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...ll_and_io.html

cheers
2air'

overlander63 · 02-19-2006, 06:58 AM

Just an FYI, and not to start another "GM vs Ford" war, but Ford has been producing flex-fuel vehicles for 10 years now. I had a 96 Taurus, and a 97 Ranger, both flex-fuel vehicles. I was reminded of that fact every time I had to buy parts for either of them.

CanoeStream · 02-19-2006, 07:02 AM

The energy density contained in ethanol is less than gasoline. I am familiar with this general statement from various experiences. So it makes sense that I've heard that mileage with E85 will be less. I dunno how much, wouldn't suspect a lot ... it's not about efficiency. It is a viable alternate fuel.

Chuck · 02-19-2006, 07:10 AM

I wanna know why they don't sell this stuff anywhere around here. seems that plenty of time has passed since vehicles were made that can burn it. where is it?

I have a 2000 Ford Taurus "FFV". (I wasn't aware that they had them even earlier than '00). I've yet to put any "FF" in it...cuz there ain't any.

CanoeStream · 02-19-2006, 07:29 AM

My former Nissan Titan TV was E85 compatible. Ditto on never using the stuff.

A recent job assignment has Susie driving federal vehicles more frequently. The GSA credit card she has is to be used only on E85. She was limited to a single station at the far side of town or another about 40 miles north; thankfully we've added a 3rd station in the last few weeks. If headed anywhere north she & her coworkers will put on quite a few extra miles if low on fuel. So if 'Federal wisdom' is a guide, you can bet there is fairly strong institutional support behind this.

I heard there are 500 E85 stations in the US but the numbers are due to take off. It is easy to find where -- just google on 'E85' and 'locations.'

lewster · 02-19-2006, 07:38 AM

I'm surprised that the 'powers-that-be' haven't invested more time promoting bio-diesel. You can grow all you want in the form of seed-to-oil, Archer/Daniels/Midland already has the processing capacity, our farmers won't need to get paid subsidies to grow nothing, and we can tell the A-rabs to keep their dino oils. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

A-n-d.........the engine technology already exists!!! Soooooooo, what's the problem????

Chuck · 02-19-2006, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canoe stream

just google on 'E85' and 'locations.'

"e85.com" says that it isn't available anywhere in the northeast region of the country.

Pick · 02-19-2006, 08:13 AM

I see lots of FFV's down here in Florida. But what good are they? There are no E85 stations down here. I often wonder how many FFV's have ever had E85 in their tanks. I also wonder if the folks that own these vehicles even know that they are FFVs. My father in law has an FFV Ford Ranger. I pointed out the Ford FFV emblem on the tailgate. He didn't know what FFV meant.

E85 and Biodiesel could be a real boon to American agriculture. We need to get the ball rolling faster! Biodiesel is gettning a lot of press down here in North Central Florida, but that is all it's getting. Still no biodiesel fueling stations here, due to the fact that bio is about $1 higher than dino fuel.

CanoeStream · 02-19-2006, 08:25 AM

Lew -- Minnesota has a law on the books requiring 2% biodiesel in all diesel fuels. It would seem there can't be enough deep fryers around to fuel a fleet. The biodiesel source here is soybean and is refined specifically for the fuel market. Unfortunately they've had a hard time putting their finger on some technical and quality issues. Many truckers began to note clogged fuel filters and that law was suspended in mid-December. I found this article about problems interesting. And another. Fish diesel though? Might be welcome in Florida but not Idaho...

Over59 · 02-19-2006, 08:42 AM

Why does this sound like the vegetable equivalent of strip mining? Once you change it into heat, CO, CO2, ect, it's just as gone as burning gas. There is nothing renewable about it. It isn't reused to make the field's healthier. How about "organic corn gas". The chemical impact of growing crops for these on the soil and water will be high.
I predict here that the "price per mile driven including repairs and live of vechile will be the same". People drive too much and too fast.
I'm for a BTU ration. Use it how you want, sell some, buy some.
Until solar panels are cheap and long lived you won't get something for nothing.

wheel interested · 02-19-2006, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by overlander63

Just an FYI, and not to start another "GM vs Ford" war, but Ford has been producing flex-fuel vehicles for 10 years now. I had a 96 Taurus, and a 97 Ranger, both flex-fuel vehicles. I was reminded of that fact every time I had to buy parts for either of them.

One thing about Ford vs GM if I remember correctly in my reading was that GM engines allow you to use regular motor oil and use the regular motor oil changing schedule.

We are anticipating holding onto this vehicle for quite a while. Even if we were not able to use or find readily available sources for fuel now, I am thinking it to be a fair consideration in case there is a future fuel crisis and alternatives will have to become popular at that time. I don't want to find myself having to stop motoring or caught short for a free or little cost option.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and keep them coming. As I said I am new to this and only beginning to try to learn about what is or may be involved.

Just as a side thought, have any of the larger travel clubs become involved with the issue? Sure would like to be part of the solution rather than the problem. :-0

cooperhawk · 02-19-2006, 09:42 AM

Have talked to folks who use E85 and they say it depends on price if it is efficient. It gets a lot less mileage than gasoline so they have to buy it a lot cheaper. I drive through the country a lot and it is usually about $1.85 compared to gas which is usually over two bucks. I see new e85 refineries being built around the country as well. One was recently built in Madelia, Mn. I am troubled with hearing that it is subsidized by the govt in order to compete.

In our VW Jedda diesel we burn a lot of biodiesel and have no problems. It does smell different though. That car gets 0ver 40 mpg all of the time. It gets over 50 mpg in summer depending how you drive it.

Anon · 02-19-2006, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

I wanna know why they don't sell this stuff anywhere around here. seems that plenty of time has passed since vehicles were made that can burn it. where is it?

Check out my link in Post #2. There is a link on that site to find locations that sell the E85 blend broken down by state.