Letting loose the gray water

[field & stream]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

All present in the natural world E. coli especially. Are you suggesting camper grey water in particular is a significant source of infectious diseases? We could estimate the biological loading of a typical batch of grey water or even black water of a person with an infectious disease for that matter and then compare it to the load required to contract same. How do you think that might turn out?

Please. Obviously, my comment was in response to your explicit reference to “fecal matter”, not gray water. Misquoting me is not going to make your prior comment equating fecal matter to other naturally occurring things less misleading or irresponsible.

Your above comment about the ubiquitous presence of E. coli in the natural world is true as far as it goes, but does not go far enough and is also misleading. Perhaps the most common bacteria on the planet, there are hundreds of strains of E. coli, most of which are harmless. However, the strain associated with human fecal matter is an entirely different situation and the cause of much serious illness and a few thousand deaths per year. This strain is the cause of most food recalls.

Minimizing the threat of infectious diseases in black water is also reckless.

My goal here is simply to encourage folks to handle their “fecal matter” (black water) responsibly in the interest of public health.

[rideair]

And to think at one time there was a section in the Airstream owners manual on how to dig a "gopher hole" to solve this problem. For that matter, they didn't even put gray tanks in the trailers until 1974. Sometimes in life we spend a bunch of time, money and effort on things that might/could be solved in a very simple way.

Now I did have to laughed when taking train rides across Europe years ago and when flushing the toilet watching railroad tracks fly by at 60mph.

Enjoy,

[Lazerus]

The first 40 years of my life we used a slide in truck camper with no grey holding tank.
There was a drain hose that we connected up that reached the ground.
My stay out of Dad's hair job was to collect about 6 baseball sized rocks, and a small pile of 3/4 sized rocks.
He or I would then dig a hole, about 8 to 12 inches around and deep. Fill the bottom with the little rocks, stick the hose in, and trap it with the big rocks.
All the sink water went in there. End of the trip I threw the big rocks away and covered over the hole.
We had a 5gal pail for paid campsites.

I bought a 25ft 5th at 40 for use on jobsites. I dug a much bigger pit for my tank hose. Grey or both depended on how likely anyone else was to use that site in the next 6 months.
When I finally left the site I chucked in some lye if I'd dumped both tanks, and filled in the hole.
No different than a temporary outhouse, and I followed the same rules of thumb for pit placement.

It's all about that particular spot being able to handle the amount you're about to dump, and how likely anyone else is to do the same in the same place.


In OPs position I probably would have made a small hole, dumped a couple gallons just to lower the tank to a safe level till the vac truck could come. Just because I couldn't imagine any paid campsite handling that much water all at once.

[wolf146]

Several years ago there was a bad drought in one of the states in which we camped. As we entered the state park there was a notice posted informing us that they were dealing with a severe drought We were allowed to "water" the trees and plants with the gray water.

Wolf146

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by field & stream

Please. Obviously, my comment was in response to your explicit reference to “fecal matter”, not gray water. Misquoting me is not going to make your prior comment equating fecal matter to other naturally occurring things less misleading or irresponsible.

Your above comment about the ubiquitous presence of E. coli in the natural world is true as far as it goes, but does not go far enough and is also misleading. Perhaps the most common bacteria on the planet, there are hundreds of strains of E. coli, most of which are harmless. However, the strain associated with human fecal matter is an entirely different situation and the cause of much serious illness and a few thousand deaths per year. This strain is the cause of most food recalls.

Minimizing the threat of infectious diseases in black water is also reckless.

My goal here is simply to encourage folks to handle their “fecal matter” (black water) responsibly in the interest of public health.

If you follow the thread back you might notice my comment on fecal matter was a build on the comment about cleaning ones backside in the shower. I reasonably figured you were following the thread and your comment was with regard to fecal matter in the grey tank, consistent with the thread. So I did not misquote you and my comments were in line with the tread. Thanks for your concern though.

Now as to level of threats of infectious diseases in camper black water and sewage in general, I'm curious about your qualifications to make that determination. I will say I have quite a bit of experience in sewage handling and treatment designs and operation and I will further say that I stand by my comparisons. I would be happy to take it all back if you have information to suggest there is a threat to the point that it is reckless to compare fecal mater to chemically similar mixtures found in the environment, misleading or not going far enough to point out that the strains and concentrations of E. Coli found in human intestines, the same found in camper tanks vs. the concentrations and strains found in nature are comparable. One does not find pathogenic strains in human intestines (unless the person is sick) nor would one find them in individual use campers unless intentionally or accidently put there or maybe if you have your pet goat or cow use the latrine. Again I invite you to demonstrate my error.

It is mostly incorrect to claim human sourced E. coli causes food poisoning and death. Shigala from STEC bacterias are found in a host of non human animals and it is these strains that the issue come into play.

Since we both want the same thing ( to ensure people act responsibly) let's at least make sure they have accurate information. Your own poop is not going to hurt you, and it will be a rare event indeed if the diluted form can ever hurt someone else unless it has be stewing in a cesspool for weeks on end.

[field & stream]

Dear Bayou Biker: I am confident that I have far more experience than you with regard to potable water systems and wastewater systems design. I would have some degree of confidence that we share the objective of ensuring that people acted responsibly with regard to black water if you were not downplaying the public health risks every step of the way.

I am way more than happy to offer you the last word. I’m out.

[ITSNO60]

Here in the Arizona desert we are happy to get all the gray water we can get. Many of our homes have a gray water system with a bypass valve, you can let the gray water go into the sewer or open the bypass and water the plants. It is also legal here to let your clothes washer water the plants.

[AldeanFan]

We all need to remember that we are from different places, with different laws and regulations, different climates and different soil types. Further there are vastly different campsites and we use our trailers in vastly different ways.

Dumping a little grey water in the middle of a desert miles away from another living person is a very different matter from dumping a full tank at the KOA in an area with poor drainage where your sewer outlet is a few feet from your neighbour’s picnic tables.

Clearly those are extreme examples but these days common sense seems to be in short supply in the world.

[PA BAMBI II]

Originally Posted by rideair

And to think at one time there was a section in the Airstream owners manual on how to dig a "gopher hole" to solve this problem.

Noted...these poorly taken photos from the original literature I received when I recently bought a '61 TradeWind.



Also, a picture of the original Thetford sewer hookup components I found in the rear storage area. Most of this has made it to the dump already, but I did save the "Airstream 'gopher hole' covers...such a plate will cover the hole completely and you can seal it by piling some of the dirt around its edges (the hole in the plate will be just large enough to take the sealing ring you usually use to seal your sewer hose where it enters the trailer park sewage system.)"



These aluminum panels are pictured in the top right of the photo of sewer hookup components...an Airstream exclusive!!

[Bluemoon64]

We dont have a grey tank in our 64. Let the dish water run out the back. Only use the shower on full hookups.

[dmatzinger]

Once upon a time I came across (I think on this forum) an entry where somebody talked about a system that was once sold to sanitize RV waste and dispose of it on the road. I believe it macerated black water, pumped it through a flame sanitizer, then just dumped it on the road as you traveled. Can't remember the brand name so I can't find it on Google.

Even now, apparently trains dump raw sewage on the tracks. One could apply the "it couldn't be as bad as" rationale to the concept of dumping gray water on railroad tracks.

[AldeanFan]

Originally Posted by dmatzinger

Once upon a time I came across (I think on this forum) an entry where somebody talked about a system that was once sold to sanitize RV waste and dispose of it on the road. I believe it macerated black water, pumped it through a flame sanitizer, then just dumped it on the road as you traveled. Can't remember the brand name so I can't find it on Google.

Even now, apparently trains dump raw sewage on the tracks. One could apply the "it couldn't be as bad as" rationale to the concept of dumping gray water on railroad tracks.

I’m sure I read about a device that pumped your black water in to the car’s exhaust while towing,
But I always thought that was a joke.

[dmatzinger]

Originally Posted by AldeanFan

I’m sure I read about a device that pumped your black water in to the car’s exhaust while towing,
But I always thought that was a joke.

Apparently not a joke. I finally found it on Google:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3740773

https://www.gmcmi.com/wp-content/upl...an-Flyer-2.pdf

Something from the late '60's early '70's that went the way of flying cars.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

All present in the natural world E. coli especially. Are you suggesting camper grey water in particular is a significant source of infectious diseases? We could estimate the biological loading of a typical batch of grey water or even black water of a person with an infectious disease for that matter and then compare it to the load required to contract same. How do you think that might turn out?

The solution to pollution is dilution.
In nature it is the rain.
At municipal treatment plants its the water you flush.
Not enough water flowing with the sewage became real problem when the save our water alarmist succeed in reducing the volume of the toilet tanks.
I one Chicago suburb we had to reconnect the Storm water to sewer lines we separated two years prior so that the treatment plant had the waterflow necessary to operate.
They basically treat the inflow with chemicals to reduce the bacteria count then out goes to a settling tank where the solids settle and the water on top is released into the nearby water way.
When the settlement tanks get full the solids are removed to drying beds and eventually shipped all over the world to replenish depleted framing areas.
Again to make this much fuss over releasing grey water in the woods that includes water that flowed over your derriere is beyond amusing.
Reading this much ignorance and subsequent anxiety is disturbing.

[BayouBiker]

I get the idea that excess, continual draining will create a muddy, stinky mess and is to be avoided, likewise any contamination of fresh surface water is to be severely limited and prevented but the notion that there is a large or severe risk to nature and human health from normal camper waste is very much overblown. I invite those who disagree to bring some real numbers.

[Dano73]

Awwww, c’mon, we all haven’t done this when there were no other options?? I know I’m not talking about letting the gray fly, amazing what a slow drip does. I camped a few years ago on the outerbanks of north carolina, and when we registered, I asked do you have full hookups? The response was we have water and electric, and you’re more than welcome to let your gray water run on the ground!! Ok, ya don’t have to tell me twice!! Lol.
And while doing an overnight in walmart, in mt. pocono pa, there are signs posted everywhere that say NO RV DUMPING IN STORM DRAINS. LOL. This is a major campground for nascar fans. Well at least it was posted!! Lol
It’s no different than dumping in a cesspool or leachfield, we’re not talking black water here!!

[field & stream]

Originally Posted by Dano73

.........It’s no different than dumping in a cesspool or leachfield, we’re not talking black water here!!

While I have no problem with limited release of gray water on the ground under proper conditions and circumstances (as many have described above), it is significantly different than “dumping in a cesspool or leach field “.

At a minimum cesspools and leach fields are sub-surface which eliminates many potential problems. If they are properly designed they take into consideration the soils ability to percolate the liquids and the proximity to surface water and groundwater. These are important considerations.

[AldeanFan]

It’s surprising how different the rules can be from place to place.
I’ve camped in 3 provinces and 10 states and rules vary widely.

At a Pennsylvania park I was told it was ok to burn branches we find on the ground while in Ontario that is a serious offence. Meanwhile the Pennsylvania park had a complete liquor ban that weekend while Ontario allowed drinking but only on your own campsite.

Its safe to assume that grey water rules will also vary by location so make sure you check the rules for your specific location.

[T2plt]

Interesting discussion...compare it to what happens in many less developed nations throughout the world and my opinion is 20 gallons of dish water isn't much to worry about.

[JCWDCW]

Originally Posted by T2plt

Interesting discussion...compare it to what happens in many less developed nations throughout the world and my opinion is 20 gallons of dish water isn't much to worry about.

I would agree except the that too many campers would just dump carelessly on the campsite leaving disgusting evidence of the meals of the last few days. So surreptitious hiding of grey water dump at least invokes some self conscious behaviour
JCW