Heads up, Camping Senior Discount at National Parks in jeopardy

[pjshier]

In truth, there will never be enough money for everyone to pay less than cost for the benefits preferred by whomever - gov't or private contractor. Right? Regardless of Administration, each department remains convinced their particular duty station is the most important, and therefore gov't taxing authority must be used to take resources from others in order to support their mission. By all means advocate for your interests. And remember when we ask for services at less than cost - somebody else paid.

Late winter here... should have waited to winterize the AS! Might have to take it up the highway to make it a base camp for some grouse hunting, dry-dry camping.

[brad1]

Originally Posted by Knotflying

Last visit to Yosemite was a huge disappointment. Facilities were dated, overpriced. Now if we could only do something about the VA. ��

You are right, Yosemite facilities are dated and overpriced. But did you know that all of those facilities are managed for profit by private companies? Yosemite has a long history of being badly served by the private contractors who have managed the visitor infrastructure. Like all for-profit companies they have an incentive to spend as little on upkeep as possible while charging as much as they can get away with. You and the rest of us suffer because of that.

The ironic thing is that at the same time those companies are doing the minimal upkeep they can get away with, they demand that the Park Service step in to fpay to fix and upgrade the facilities they have used to death.

The last contractor, an outfit put together specifically to milk the Yosemite visitor facility cash, was terrible. They put off maintenance and upgrades they were supposed to do until near the end of their contract period, then they said it was too close to the end of the contract period to do the work profitably. Their proposed solution was to have their contract extended but at a lower rate of return to the NPS, ie you and me. When they lost the contract, they pointed out that they had quietly trademarked the iconic names of the facilities and that the NPS, ie you and me, owed them money in order to get the use of the names back. So they ripped us off by not fulfilling the terms of their contract, and then, to add insult to injury, they ripped us off for the very names of the facilities!

So don't think for a minute that privatization of National Parks facilities and infrastructure will result in improvements. The only improvements will be to the bottom line of the contractors. Think of it as the ultimate in government sponsored corporate welfare.

[brad1]

Originally Posted by n2916s

Might want to ask any young active duty family living in contractor-run military family housing. Rats, mold, inoperative plumbing, months-long waits for repairs...

Congress added money to the 2019 military budget to address the maintenance backlog. The money was redirected to The Wall.

When I was a kid I lived on a bunch of military bases when all of the facilities were still managed by the military. Like, the work was done by uniformed service members. Stuff got done fast and right.

[jcanavera]

I have the $10 America the Beautiful pass which accepted at Corp of Engineer campgrounds also. At a lake close to my locale there are 3 Corp of Engineer parks that have full hook up sites that I pay $10.50 a night. Even without the card they are a bargain at $21.

I'm not sure of the funding sources for Corp parks but they are soon to begin construction on improvements and many of the sites will be converted to full hookups.

Jack

[billrector]

Privatize? I’m all for it with government over site! Here is one of my stories:

A few years ago, my wife and I decided to go to Big Bend National Park (pre-Airstream). We had read about Chisos Basin and decided we wanted to tent camp there. We drove 8 hours arriving at Big Bend in the late afternoon. We went to the visitors center and found out that all campgrounds were full!

We decided that we were curious about Big Bend Ranch State park so drove the 90 minutes to a campsite on the river. We had a great evening there.

The next day we decided to check out Chisos Basin and see if we had an interest in going there. We drove up the hill to the campground and passed the “campground full” sign. We arrived and drove through the campground. It did not look full to us! We stopped and talked to the campground host who informed us that he had 14 openings the prior night (the night we arrived). What?

We told him that the visitors center and the sign entering the campground both said it was full. He said that he had told rangers numerous times that he had plenty of open campsites! We stayed several nights and every night there were plenty of opening but every time we passed that damn sign, it said “FULL”!

We stopped at a ranger station on day 2 and told them of our experience. Even though we mentioned it to them, that sign said full for the remainder of our stay!

Bottom line, no one cared! That’s what you get when there is no competition and people are not held accountable.

Rant over!

Bill

[Gene]

Concessionaires have been running various parts of national parks for years. Sometimes they do a good job, often they do not. Eat at a NP hotel? Sometimes terrible and expensive, other times pretty good, but never great. Same for lodging. A lot of Forest Service CG's have been privatized and now have electric in part of the area. Some of the others have been closed to direct traffic to the privately run ones. It costs more with or without electric than it used to. I think BLM is also going that way.

Privatization has not been much of a success. Often it ends of costing more. Private orisons are known for poor quality environments which only produce more hardened criminals with poorly paid guards wishing they had another job. Medicare and Social Security run by the federal government are known for low administrative costs, well run programs (certainly there are exceptions in programs so large) and no profits to pay to companies already quite rich.

Despite years of attempts to trash the government, a lot of things are done right and certainly lots of private companies go bankrupt, screw their customers, overcharge for badly made products or services, and do they even answer their phones when you call?

Public lands are owned by everyone and should be accessible to everyone. They are just as valuable as libraries and libraries, at least, are still free.

[Shermy1987]

If you want national parks to have shops, WiFi and hookups. I'm wondering why you would want to go to one in the first place. Perhaps nature would be better viewed at home through the television screen.

[billrector]

Originally Posted by Gene

Concessionaires have been running various parts of national parks for years. Sometimes they do a good job, often they do not. Eat at a NP hotel? Sometimes terrible and expensive, other times pretty good, but never great. Same for lodging. A lot of Forest Service CG's have been privatized and now have electric in part of the area. Some of the others have been closed to direct traffic to the privately run ones. It costs more with or without electric than it used to. I think BLM is also going that way.

Privatization has not been much of a success. Often it ends of costing more. Private orisons are known for poor quality environments which only produce more hardened criminals with poorly paid guards wishing they had another job. Medicare and Social Security run by the federal government are known for low administrative costs, well run programs (certainly there are exceptions in programs so large) and no profits to pay to companies already quite rich.

Despite years of attempts to trash the government, a lot of things are done right and certainly lots of private companies go bankrupt, screw their customers, overcharge for badly made products or services, and do they even answer their phones when you call?

Public lands are owned by everyone and should be accessible to everyone. They are just as valuable as libraries and libraries, at least, are still free.

Wow....you label Social Security and Medicare as “well run”? You will get a lot of debate about that.

[bweybright]

Originally Posted by Shermy1987

If you want national parks to have shops, WiFi and hookups. I'm wondering why you would want to go to one in the first place. Perhaps nature would be better viewed at home through the television screen.

I need the souvenir shop so I can get my stamp in my National Park book, and get the sticker that goes with it.

[ibosket]

It's amazing to me that so many people on this thread seem to think it's a great idea to begin privatizing the National Parks. As if somehow there's not enough access and not enough people flooding into the parks every year. My wife and I have volunteered at Glacier in the past - who set visitation records nearly every year now. As a volunteer, it's easy to see how the Parks are overwhelmed with visitors and are suffering from an enormous backlog of maintenance and staff. And why is that? Calculated reduced budgets that can never make up for the $11.9B backlog. And if the NPS budgets make it impossible to run the Parks efficiently, then allowing private companies to come in and 'rescue' them seems like a great idea. The Parks belong to EVERYONE, and weren't developed to be just another place for people to make money. I understand that there are already some contracts for management of Park hotels and facilities by private companies - but that doesn't mean every campground has to be run like a KOA. Go camping. Enjoy the break from amenities. No Wifi? Gosh, what a sacrifice.

[rowiebowie]

Our tax dollars are often poorly managed on many levels (public and private) due to incompetence, indifference, or corruption.

Just because a private entity is involved is neither inherently good or bad. If the parks are mis-managed, they are mis-managed by the government. Plain and simple. I say this because government money paid to private contractors is still "managed" (I used that term loosely) by someone in our government who is supposed to ensure it is well spent for the purposes intended.

As a former state government employee (retired auditor) I reviewed many projects in house and through private contracts. We also administered millions of dollars of projects funded with federal money. There was absolutely no difference in project outcome on an apples to apples basis. But, what made the difference was whether the project manager was competent, motivated, and honest enough to ensure the money was well managed. In my experience, they rated a C+ overall.

Probably the best chance for an "acceptable" outcome is to advocate for what you individually would like to happen and hope for the best.

[PKI]

We have a Disneyland. Folks who want that experience can have it. The purpose of a National Park is to preserve, protect and educate. The purpose is not to exploit the resource or be a profit center for private business.

Good people don't have to work for a vendor to be effective, innovative and dedicated to the success of the organization. Especially, when the career is with the NPS.

So count me in the "No Vendor" column. Pat

[billrector]

Privatization and turning a NP into Disneyland are two separate things. You can have each without the other.

Back to stories.....I just got back from the north rim of the Grand Canyon. Bathrooms were closed because it is now the off season. By the visitors center was a group of 5-6 porta-potties. I kid you not when I say that the one I went into was filled to the lid! There were plenty of Europeans at the park and I was absolutely embarrassed. We can do much better.

Also, everyone seems to think that the parks would just be turned over to private parties that can do what they want. I’m sure that there would be government oversight and companies would bid to a specification.

I’m all for keeping these parks wild, but some services are essential.

[KK4YZ]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

BTW, I think you might want a different exempler than the DOD/military-industrial complex to tout the virtues of private enterprise. LockMart, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, et. al. whose names and projects like the V-22, the F-35, the A-12, the B-2, etc. are synonymous with delays and cost-overruns, you had me laughing out loud reading that.

.

My experience with Govt contracting tells me that most of what you describe is due to the govt procurement process: changing requirements, unrealistic requirements, procurement processes that boggle the mind, low bidder....

I have been directly involved in some of this at a smaller scale (10’s of millions instead of billions) and I have seen the govt bureaucracy do a lot of pretty stupid and counterproductive things that benefit no one other than keeping a make work job alive for a govt employee.

In the end the engineers and end users usually prevail and a good end result comes about but it could be a lot faster and cheaper if the bureaucrats just stayed home and let the productive people do their jobs.

[PKI]

Originally Posted by billrector

Privatization and turning a NP into Disneyland are two separate things. You can have each without the other. -- snip -- I’m all for keeping these parks wild, but some services are essential.

Bill - Not two separate things. Both are for profit and are not focused on preserving and protecting our National Park Resources. Money needed to provide those essential services and harden park infrastructure is moved to private purpose.

Disneyland - Fort Wilderness Campground - examples of the exciting recreational environment that private enterprise is capable of producing and delivering to the public for their enjoyment, at a price.

Our National Parks - examples of the wonder of what nature and history offers for the enjoyment of the public, if they are preserved and protected, currently at an affordable cost.

Bill - Your point is not without merit. Any system can be made to work. However, what is being proposed is the wrong system for our NPS. Pat

[Gene]

Originally Posted by billrector

Wow....you label Social Security and Medicare as “well run”? You will get a lot of debate about that.

I guess the "debate" will reflect what people want to believe.

[skyguyscott]

Well, its always good to read everyone's thoughts on this. I think we all agree the NPS is in rather serious need of upkeep and attention.

Sadly, our government does not seem particularly interested in providing that upkeep and attention, and I would wager that unless and until a sizable bunch of influencers start making noise, it will continue to atrophy.

One could argue that big business in this country has done several things that contribute to this: by squeezing the cost of labor to maximize their profits, fewer of their workers can afford vacations, or even the time to enjoy the NPS system, and so the majority of our fellow citizens have never ventured to the parks. Indeed, reports are that many workers fail to take the vacation time they have already earned!

Second, of course, the reduction of our tax base, disproportionately to the benefit of said companies, (I'm looking at you, Amazon!) further erodes the funds needed for our parks in particular, and our government in general.

I wonder if an across the board wage increase and a repeal of the massive tax cuts recently enacted would improve things. Not that any of that is at all likely to happen.

[billrector]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

Well, its always good to read everyone's thoughts on this. I think we all agree the NPS is in rather serious need of upkeep and attention.



Sadly, our government does not seem particularly interested in providing that upkeep and attention, and I would wager that unless and until a sizable bunch of influencers start making noise, it will continue to atrophy.



One could argue that big business in this country has done several things that contribute to this: by squeezing the cost of labor to maximize their profits, fewer of their workers can afford vacations, or even the time to enjoy the NPS system, and so the majority of our fellow citizens have never ventured to the parks. Indeed, reports are that many workers fail to take the vacation time they have already earned!



Second, of course, the reduction of our tax base, disproportionately to the benefit of said companies, (I'm looking at you, Amazon!) further erodes the funds needed for our parks in particular, and our government in general.



I wonder if an across the board wage increase and a repeal of the massive tax cuts recently enacted would improve things. Not that any of that is at all likely to happen.

Have you been to a NP lately? I have been to several in the last month. They are packed! Someone is taking a vacation!

[skyguyscott]

Yes, they are packed, but it is also true that the majority of Americans have never been to a National Park. True, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but maybe if more folks saw the condition they were in, it might become more of an issue.

I like the idea of some sort of senior citizens corps, volunteers who help out. Airstreamers, in my experience, are some of the handiest, cleverest folks. I think we could make a dent (no pun intended) in the problem

[JamuJoe]

Originally Posted by JamuJoe

I have found concessionaire operated NP campgrounds to be highly variable. Crater Lake NP is a recent experience in inefficiency and ‘could care less’ attitude by the concessionaire. Gulf Shores Nat’l Seashore Davis Bayou CG had NO hosts or attending Rangers this summer. It’s all dependent upon the contract and oversight by the NPS. The NPS is starved for funding, and facilities are deteriorating. Turning our Public Lands into KOA’s is not the answer, however. We need a Dept. of Interior that respects the environment and is not eager to hand over our public lands to extractive industries. The outlook is poor under the current administration. I support the efforts of NPCA and others to protect our public lands from destructive exploitation.

If you care to make your opinions known to the National Park Service, here is a means to do so, courtesy of the
The Western Values Project:

Use this link

https://www.nps.gov/common/utilities...merica-rac.htm

to send an email to the “Made in America” Outdoor Recreation Advisory Committee now and tell them you OPPOSE their plan to privatize our national parks. And when you’re done, please sign your name confirming that you’ve sent the email!

If you’re having writer’s block, we’ve even written a suggested email that you can copy and paste to send to the Committee:

Hi, my name is ___________ and I live in ______STATE_____. I’m a big fan of the National Park system, and I’m writing to oppose the Committee’s recommendations to privatize our campgrounds.

Americans deserve to continue accessing our national parks, seniors deserve to continue accessing discounts where available, and public campgrounds should remain public -- not be transferred to private special interests who stand to profit by raising fees.

Thank you. I hope Interior will do the right thing and keep our public lands public.


Safe Travels,
JamuJoe