Gasoline Mileage: source of fuel a factor

[B00merang]

Rich
I did not intend to start any political arguments....I simply stated the reasons why we have ethanol in our gasoline. I bet the vast majority of us would prefer non-ethanol fuel for our various engines if we had a choice (locally many of us ...including all the boat owners I know) are paying ~$0.40 more per gallon for "pure" gasoline. You enumerated many of the reasons for that in your reply. OK? OK! jon

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by B00merang

Rich
I did not intend to start any political arguments....I simply stated the reasons why we have ethanol in our gasoline. I bet the vast majority of us would prefer non-ethanol fuel for our various engines if we had a choice (locally many of us ...including all the boat owners I know) are paying ~$0.40 more per gallon for "pure" gasoline. You enumerated many of the reasons for that in your reply. OK? OK! jon

I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. I just think the social and political energy source issues are non-solvable....because of their nature, and discussion of them in a FUEL mileage/performance thread is useless. Valid discussion elsewhere, but I base none of my comments on anything other than the chemistry, price, logistics, and performance characteristics. I apologize if anyone thought my intentions were other than that.

[joemikeb]

An article in Consumer Reports a few years ago found that up to 10% ethanol produced only a small reduction in fuel mileage but 15% ethanol would reduce mileage by as much as 20 to 25%. The test vehicle was a fuel efficient small sedan. I suspect the reduction in mileage would be greater with any vehicle carrying a lot of weight or pulling a heavy load such as an Airstream trailer.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by joemikeb

An article in Consumer Reports a few years ago found that up to 10% ethanol produced only a small reduction in fuel mileage but 15% ethanol would reduce mileage by as much as 20 to 25%. The test vehicle was a fuel efficient small sedan. I suspect the reduction in mileage would be greater with any vehicle carrying a lot of weight or pulling a heavy load such as an Airstream trailer.

Two things:

The Consumer Reports findings are based on cars equipped and calibrated for E10 (not flex fuel cars) when running on E15. That issue (and durability issues) were at the heart of the automakers being successful in delaying the Fed's E15 mandate. GM started calibrating (non- flex fuel) vehicles for E15 in 2012 or 13. BUT, it takes 20 years for the national car park to turn over, so E15 could still be a problem....but I doubt the mandate will be delayed for another 15 years......

Second, the mileage reduction (percentage) is pretty equal to the comparison to 100% gasoline with a given load. Remember, ethanol does have a higher octane rating than gasoline (before additives)....so there is some wiggle room in the vehicle calibrations for cam and ignition timing....in some concentration circumstances.

[PKI]

We make every effort to not purchase Ethanol fuels. Makes burning premium much less painful.

Never thought about improved engine efficiency from higher altitude driving. Always thought it was the result of the down hill run out the other side, because we are always on the way through and spend little time at elevation. Very interesting point.

Someday I hope they can turn the non-irrigated prairie grass into fuel and use grain as people food. Production of fuel from bio growth is also an interesting development. Maybe someday they can bring down the break even point to something better than $20/gal. Yes, "someday" is a common factor. At least now folks are investigating the alternatives.

Thank you all for running the most efficient rig you can afford. Pat

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by PKI

We make every effort to not purchase Ethanol fuels. Makes burning premium much less painful.

Never thought about improved engine efficiency from higher altitude driving. Always thought it was the result of the down hill run out the other side, because we are always on the way through and spend little time at elevation. Very interesting point.

Someday I hope they can turn the non-irrigated prairie grass into fuel and use grain as people food. Production of fuel from bio growth is also an interesting development. Maybe someday they can bring down the break even point to something better than $20/gal. Yes, "someday" is a common factor. At least now folks are investigating the alternatives.

Thank you all for running the most efficient rig you can afford. Pat

Not a lot of investigating/investing at $65 a barrel oil.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by PKI

We make every effort to not purchase Ethanol fuels. Makes burning premium much less painful.

Never thought about improved engine efficiency from higher altitude driving. Always thought it was the result of the down hill run out the other side, because we are always on the way through and spend little time at elevation. Very interesting point.

Someday I hope they can turn the non-irrigated prairie grass into fuel and use grain as people food. Production of fuel from bio growth is also an interesting development. Maybe someday they can bring down the break even point to something better than $20/gal. Yes, "someday" is a common factor. At least now folks are investigating the alternatives.

Thank you all for running the most efficient rig you can afford. Pat

Be observant, if you want to follow your plan, not all Premiums are E-free. Some use the ethanol as one of the octane boosters to make 93 octane.

[dznf0g]

For example:

[Ray Eklund]

I use to be just ignorant of fuels and mixes for the seasons. Now just over whelmed with all of the information.

The Carbon/Hydrogen molecules of gasoline have an interesting property. Cold they compress in volume and Hot they expand. Now... before making judgement, complete this post.

Gasoline stations in Wyoming have always delivered regular gasoline with whatever else they are required to toss into the mix... at maybe 58 degrees F. Feel the aluminum part of the pump while dispensing fuel and it is... cold to the touch. Because it is stored underground and ground temperature is an average of the hot and cold daily temperatures...or something like that. The molecules are condensed and might explain that for ONE gallon you get more gasoline molecules for the cost of each gallon and your engine might run a bit rich, but better miles per gallon. (Thinner air just a minor positive.)

More "bang for the buck" theory.

Yes, you know and I know that this could be researched better, but someone else may have the facts tattooed on their elbow, while I do not. But I go on...

Just west of Sam's Town Casino in Las Vegas, Nevada was a service station that sold only fuel and maybe some stale hot dogs and sodas. The price was better than those stations further from the Strip, so I stopped and filled my tank. It was dispensed more on the HOT side than warm and far from cool or cold. Fewer molecules per gallon.

The "a sucker is born every moment" theory. (In Las Vegas...)

We were driving back to Missouri the next morning and staying at the Casino hotel. When I started the engine the next morning, it was cool outside and the gauges began to make their appropriate moves... the fuel gauge was 1/8th of a tank... LOW. The fuel had cooled from being under the concrete garage and shrank in volume. Purchased hot gasoline and it cooled to outside temperature to contract... a lot.

At first I thought someone had siphoned some from my tank... but then my alter ego began to figure out the hot fuel and cold fuel theory.

Was I ripped off! And you thought the Craps Table was rigged against the players. It is probably legal to heat your underground gasoline tanks, as well. Although loaded dice at a Craps Table is NOT legal.

Ever since, when I fill my tank I want to feel the metal on the pump handle if it is cool or cold to the touch. Learned a lesson on Service Station Scams.

There is a moral to this post. What it is, you decide. Can a Service Station determine the temperature of fuel dispensed for their profit margin... and be legal?

It is like charging more for an inflated balloon by the clerk blowing into it, than one that is empty. Hot gasoline is no different.

[mjayjensen]

It takes more btu to produce ethanol than can be gotten out of it.
Jay

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

The Carbon/Hydrogen molecules of gasoline have an interesting property. Cold they compress in volume and Hot they expand.

Gasoline also expands at 4.5 times the rate of water, at 20 C.

Here in Canada we have had automatic temperature compensation built into our fuel pumps for years if not decades. The reference temperature is 15 C/60 F and measured volumes are automatically corrected to that standard.

I was surprised to read that the US does not have such corrections at the retail level (from wiki, so taken with a grain of salt), only the wholesale level. Do some US fuel dispenser pumps have such correction?

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by mjayjensen

It takes more btu to produce ethanol than can be gotten out of it.
Jay

I said I wasn't going to get into that....buuuuut....Just how many btus does it take to ship crude from overseas, refine it, pump it through the pipeline, truck t to the station?

The disparity isn't as large as that side of the argument wants you to believe.

Bottom line....all fuels...all energy has it's conversion problems. We just got to figure out the least of all the evils...and not just BTUs.

BUT, that's why I have been trying, not very well apparently, to stop the social/political/liars figure part of the problem for the sake of this "mileage" thread.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by jcl

Gasoline also expands at 4.5 times the rate of water, at 20 C.

Here in Canada we have had automatic temperature compensation built into our fuel pumps for years if not decades. The reference temperature is 15 C/60 F and measured volumes are automatically corrected to that standard.

I was surprised to read that the US does not have such corrections at the retail level (from wiki, so taken with a grain of salt), only the wholesale level. Do some US fuel dispenser pumps have such correction?

I thought so, but I guess IDK.

[jcl]

This is the fuel I hunt out, particularly effective for a twin turbo 3 litre gasoline engine (BMW) that can take full advantage of the 94 AKI rating:

Jeff

[jcl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

The disparity isn't as large as that side of the argument wants you to believe.

I'll try and keep it non political

Studies from some years back showed a negative energy balance for the production of ethanol as a motor fuel. More recent studies show a slight positive energy balance (1.3). A concern remains as to how the electrical power is produced to make the ethanol, and if it comes from a coal fired power plant, then a CO2 impact analysis becomes as important as the energy balance equation.

Agree that it isn't clear cut.

What really makes sense is burning less of your fuel of choice.

[Ray Eklund]

I am a grunt geologist. When a 100 foot+ drilling rig is in some place in nowhere, there is a small trailer with some guy being awakened ever so often to figure out what rock formation the drill bit had encountered. Then figuring how long it took for the sample to be drawn up the drill stem to the "shaker" and to examine whatever rock samples that could be recognized. When you were close to the oil bearing formation... things began to happen to "complete the well".

I did not want to do that either. It was more comfortable in January to inspect the drilling and servicing rigs all times of the day... when you could find them. Day or Night.

I have never been a Petroleum Engineer, or a Oil/Gas well drill operator. Nor a Seismic Crew operator, tool pusher, log reader, mud engineer, well fracker, core librarian, oil gravity tester, water separator, hydrologist, crude oil fracker... and the army of competent people goes on and on.

The USA has been pretty much restrained from being a net exporter of CRUDE Oil and oil products. Again the industry is restrained, until recently. I consider Canadian and USA oil as North American Oil resources. Their are many kinds of petroleums that produce different products. West Texas Crude is a light oil and gasoline is more profitable than the Tar Sands of Canada for heavier products like asphalt, etc. Again, this is for a Petroleum Engineer to blather about... I just listen to them.

Petroleum is "political" just in the nature of its sources and production of products from petroleum. Sure beats using Whale Oil for lighting the home, and for the whale population as well. Many people speak from total ignorance... and myself, partial ignorance.

This is not a "mileage thread". It is the SOURCE of the gasoline PRODUCTION that can affect Miles Per Gallon... Thread.

In the "old days" a refiner would take a volume of their current gasoline product and go to a specific height and... dump it. When the gasoline was vaporized before any hit the ground... it was ready for "public consumption". Crude test... but effective in anything using gasoline at the time.

Of course, this was way before my time... but check it out.

Much like a whiskey still... taste test or test it somehow.

[Ray Eklund]

At elevation with cars where you could manually loosen the distributor and adjust the timing... you could adjust for good or bad gasoline. If it knocked, I could piddle around and change the timing of ignition just a degree or so.

Maybe that is also the backyard mechanic talking, but some fuels were for different elevations. A tanker hauling fuel from Oklahoma could make some quick bucks hauling it to another place once he calculated his cost to deliver and profit in taking a "hot load of fuel".

Maybe this is from an old movie set... but maybe someone might be able to give out a secret of two from their experiences with fuel haulers.

Engine knock? When you heard it, you know what I am talking about. The timing of the fuel entering the cylinder and the ignition timing. Your valves would chatter like your teeth in a freezing Wyoming wind without a tree to lean against.

OK... back to work. But this has been a lot of fun and all of us are learning some new facts that otherwise would have not been available. ... and maybe a few sorta facts, but who is counting?

[dznf0g]

Ray, your vehicle now "twists it's own distributor" at lightning speed, to adjust for elevation, load, fuel quality, etc. The knock sensors pick it up BEFORE pre-ignition is audible...all in milliseconds.

Some things are much better than they were...actually a lot of things.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by jcl

I'll try and keep it non political

Studies from some years back showed a negative energy balance for the production of ethanol as a motor fuel. More recent studies show a slight positive energy balance (1.3). A concern remains as to how the electrical power is produced to make the ethanol, and if it comes from a coal fired power plant, then a CO2 impact analysis becomes as important as the energy balance equation.

Agree that it isn't clear cut.

What really makes sense is burning less of your fuel of choice.

True, all dat! The energy source is a arguably valid point for all fuels, including electric, and even hydrogen. And thank you for the energy input/output statement for ethanol....it is true. It is much more energy input and water efficient than it was even a few years ago.

[dannydimitt]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

At elevation with cars where you could manually loosen the distributor and adjust the timing... you could adjust for good or bad gasoline. If it knocked, I could piddle around and change the timing of ignition just a degree or so.

Maybe that is also the backyard mechanic talking, but some fuels were for different elevations. A tanker hauling fuel from Oklahoma could make some quick bucks hauling it to another place once he calculated his cost to deliver and profit in taking a "hot load of fuel".

Maybe this is from an old movie set... but maybe someone might be able to give out a secret of two from their experiences with fuel haulers.

Engine knock? When you heard it, you know what I am talking about. The timing of the fuel entering the cylinder and the ignition timing. Your valves would chatter like your teeth in a freezing Wyoming wind without a tree to lean against.

OK... back to work. But this has been a lot of fun and all of us are learning some new facts that otherwise would have not been available. ... and maybe a few sorta facts, but who is counting?

Yeppers , back in 72 I moved from south of Houston to Cheyenne Wyoming and began a 5 year adventure working at that fenced in place just west of town . F.E. Warren Air Force Base . Learned real fast about power tuning the distributor to get the best performance out of a gallon of leaded regular that for the most part came from the Gas A Matt on old US 30 just east of downtown . Ray , bet you remember having to get the dollar slugs from the window and feed the pumps with them.
And in addition I found out from the old timer civilians I worked with about down sizing the carburetor main jets to compensate for the decreased oxygen in the air at 6000 ft . There was an old shop on 17th street that had a huge selection of main jets , something or other auto electric was the name of the place I think .
I would jet the carb down on my old Y block Ford to run great at 6000 foot " and put a high altitude power valve in the carb " . This worked fantastically well until traveling back to Houston to visit a couple of times each year . The old beast would remind me to stop and put the larger jets in the carburetor usually around Childress Tx headed south , by acting like it was starving for gas " which it was " , and by pulling the choke out a tad it would settle down till I could get off the road and do the required main jet transplant . would then complete the trip and put the smaller jets back in around Amarillo on our return .
I still miss the Cheyenne days and would love to go back and relive them.