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MarkExc500 · 03-03-2006, 09:32 AM

What is a good system for making BioDiesel? Appleseed or Fuelmeister, ect?

Any thoughts on safety issues with the fuelmeister? I understand since they have plastics in the tanks that they may pose a problem after a year or so.

Appleseed seems like an inexpensive system. Any thoughts?

I hope to find something safe enough to set up in my garage.

I want to run this fuel in a 2006 Powerstroke Diesel which is still new.

Thanks,
Mark

Chaplain Kent · 03-03-2006, 10:20 AM

There was a show on Discovery, Dirty Jobs, where the guy went and collected used cooking oil and then brought back to his home and made Bio-Diesel. His set up looked much more sophisticated than a garage unit. Further he was doing all sorts of chemical testing to make the correct mixtures from the different oils.
I'd love to pull up to Lily's Wok fill up the buckets and bring them home to feed Chummy- is it possible?

MarkExc500 · 03-03-2006, 12:02 PM

I understand that many people are converting Veggie oil to BioFuel.

It seems like the quality of the oil like if it was overheated has a lot to do with the quality of the biofuel.

Testing is part of producing this as in Titration, but as I understand it this is only for a small test batch before making the full batch. I understand the whole process is relatively simple once the system is set up, using Lye and Methanol with the vegetable oil.

Instead of $2.99 a gallon imagine only 75 cents.

Check out these sites for more info;

http://www.brevardbiodiesel.org/EV/ev.html
and
http://www.cascadebiodiesel.com

urbanextreme · 03-03-2006, 12:15 PM

http://www.survivalunlimited.com/biodiesel.htm

You have to run a heater of some sort inline or at the filter system. The most trouble free systems are by running a separate tank for diesel and bio or veggie. Most of the people that run veggie burners have a switch that switches from the veggie tank back to the diesel tank before the engine shuts off. That keeps fresh diesel in the system for starting purposes. A whole bullet proof system will run a good 1500 dollars unless you want to go half way and end up damaging your $400 a piece injectors.

Pick · 03-03-2006, 12:37 PM

You do not need to run a heater to run biodiesel, but you do need it to run SVO (straight vegetable oil) or WVO, (waster vegetable oil).

Toughest part about making biodiesel is finding a place to get the waste oil, and then collecting it. You CANNOT drive into a restaurant's parking lot and just help yourself to their waste vegetable oil. The second that oil goes into the dumpster it belongs to Griffin, or whoever the dumpster belongs to.

swebster · 03-03-2006, 12:49 PM

I've been interested in this for a while. Found an interesting profile on greasecar.com about a class a pusher using SVO. Sounds like this is type of two tank system Keith and Pick are talking about.

http://www.greasecar.com/profile.cfm?profileID=52

Makes me want a diesel engine. Of course I would like to talk with these owners about a year into the conversion.

markdoane · 03-03-2006, 01:29 PM

I'm worried that all these backyard processors of biodiesel will be leaving little gopher holes all over the place filled with glycerine, soap, and waste methanol. Yippee!

And then there are the inevitable fights that break out as people line up at McD's to fill up with free french fry oil.

ZoominC6 · 03-03-2006, 03:42 PM

I've been doing a little testing on Bio here in N Tex. We have a location we can purchase a 50/50 blend of soybean or a 99% version. I've been using the 50/50 blend for long enough to know that, 1. My duramax runs quieter 2. I get one mile per gallon less mileage 3. The bio is slightly more expensive 4. The exhaust smells entirely different, almost like you're cooking something

I've gone back to diesel. Good luck in your efforts.

wahoonc · 03-03-2006, 07:25 PM

Mark,
I have looked at both systems and prefer the Appleseed, easy to set up and run. We are about a year out on making our own biodiesel, I plan to try the first couple of batches using purchased vegtable oil, then we will be growing something like soybean or rapeseed. If I have it calculated correctly I only need about 15 acres a year to produce what I need for a year's supply for two vehicles

A couple of issues have cropped up with the bio, one is that in very cold weather it will solidify, and two you can get stuff growing in it that will plug up the filtration system.

Zoomin,
Why didn't you like the bio? The main reason it is more expensive is because it is not subsidized like dinodiesel, you are paying the full freight so to speak. We have pretty decent access to soy based bio around here, I kind of like the smell of it, kind of like peanuts roasting.

Aaron

lewster · 03-03-2006, 08:40 PM

I've been a big bio diesel fan for a while. According to Dodge (I have a 2004 Sprinter van) I can't run any type of bio due to the absence of Viton seals and fuel lines in my Sprinter. I had my dealer check with Dodge corporate about it and they said to do it if I want to invest in an $8000 engine overhaul in about 6 months after I start using it.....very dissapointing!

And I have a great source for all the waste oil that I could use, too!!!!

j54mark · 03-03-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wahoonc

Zoomin,
Why didn't you like the bio? The main reason it is more expensive is because it is not subsidized like dinodiesel, you are paying the full freight so to speak.
Aaron

Oil is not subsidized in any normal meaning of the word. Bio-fuels are heavily subsidized through crop subsidies, direct tax preferments at the production end, low interest loan programs, and by being given a pass on fuel taxes (at least in many states and I believe on federal highway taxes everywhere. These taxes usually total $.40 per gallon or more.).

Mark

ZoominC6 · 03-04-2006, 05:53 AM

Aaron,
The bio works just fine. After my tests, I looked at the bottom line and found that it didn't improve my mileage or save me any money. I did like the quieter sounding motor and the smell of the roasting peanuts.

One problem we have around the DFW Metroplex is availability. I found that I needed to be in the area of the supplier in order to fill up. Making a special trip to his location was even less cost effective.

Does anyone have any idea how much bio costs to produce vs regular diesel? Is it more expensive or less costly to produce?

cooperhawk · 03-04-2006, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j54mark

Oil is not subsidized in any normal meaning of the word. Bio-fuels are heavily subsidized through crop subsidies, direct tax preferments at the production end, low interest loan programs, and by being given a pass on fuel taxes (at least in many states and I believe on federal highway taxes everywhere. These taxes usually total $.40 per gallon or more.).

Mark

Mark is correct. I wanted to make the same point on E85 before that thread got out of hand. When you figure in all the subsidies and deferments the farmers get, then these fuels cost a lot more to produce than petroleum based fuels. I still think we should be developing the industry though. It could be very valuable in the future to have this infra structure in place. We burn some bio diesel in our VW Jedda diesel. It does cost a little more and I don't see any change in mileage or power.

My Brother burned some bio in his over the road trucks and quit because of injector problems. (Smelled like french fries).

wahoonc · 03-04-2006, 08:05 AM

I will have to find the website link, but the oil industry is at least as well subsidized as the agricultural industries via various tax breaks. It is also one of the highest profit industries with perhaps the exception of banking or insurance.

Aaron

silverback · 03-04-2006, 09:56 AM

I purchase commercially produced biodiesel (from Soy) for my Duramax and our VW TDI. Usually in B20 or B100 formulations (depends on the distributer). Both vehicles love it. I would not fill up my tank with straight B100. I always mix into no less then half a tank of petro diesel. It is not a lot more expensive these days and is not subject to market fluctuations (WSP has been charging $2.85 a gallon for months).
-Ken

2airishuman · 03-04-2006, 11:46 AM

hi folks

figuring the true-complete-but-not-exagerated-ad-infinity-cost of any fuel is COMPLICATED......

and made moreso when going from single maker/user costs to a volume scale for national needs...

ethanol or biod?.....in any percentage....

-gotta build refinery-like plants...this cost....tax breaks or fed incentives?
-grow oil....beans/corn...figureing farm incentives is a quagmire...
-more soil erosion; more nitrogen in drinking water....cost
-farming uses fuel.......figure that somehow along with other farm production costs....
-adding methane?...gonna need to collect sh1t;
-make a slurry, then deal with true fecal waste...sometimes a bigger volume that the original pile of poo...
-hard to collect sh1t from small farmers....
-so need the big pork/beef "plants" involved...and so they expand heard sizes and get better subsides.....and produce more industrial costs...
-biod......means more nitrogen waste into the air....so deal with n.o. costs

and this is just a quick list...feel free to add other cost items...

it's hard to find clean data about costs on ethanol or biod...or any waste fuel....and each interest publishes misleading info about the others while promoting their 'alternative fuel' as less costly...blah, blah.

and what about hydrogen?
man this really appeals to me...but gm just killed a 1 BILLION dollar hydrogen test program....for a variety of short sighted reasons....

waste oil has a high energy value, fecal/plant waste a low energy value using either to power internal combustion...is still short term....

i don't think green fuels or brown fuels or yellow fuels are less costly to provide than the black gold fuels....
but it is important to push each technology...
if only for the sake of learning/research...
and really that needs subsides.....lots.

i love the guy on tv powering his hummer/rv across the country with a little mulch, poop, diesel, electric, biod, ethanol, methane....
but do we really want all of our neighbors....making fuel?...ever lived near a meth lab?

hope i just cleared things up and brightened your day!

cheers all....
i'm off for a bicycle ride....powered by twinkies and coke!

2air'

Fish36991 · 04-09-2006, 07:00 PM

I'm glad I ran across this thread.

I currently make biodiesel. Here are a couple of quick notes for the interested. I'm not super expert but I do have some experience in making it and using it in my 2004 Duramax....runs great by the way.

1. I will run in the Sprinter just fine. Any diesel newer than 1985 will have the newer gaskets, seals and hoses that biodiesel will not break down. These were implemented in 85 due to the change made in petro diesel to meet EPA low sulphur requirements. Dodge says no so you will be less likely to pour a low quality or unfiltered biodiesel in your rig. They do not warranty biodiesel or petro diesel in any vechicle by the way.

2. You will not have to collect crap to make biodiesel. You mix your lye with methanol (bought in bulk in drums or tanks to keep the cost lower) and mixed with the filtered SVO in the processor.

3. The 'waste' is glycerol which can be further processed to recover extra methanol (which can be reused) and the glycerine....which can be sold as well.

4. The titration tests are to determine the level of saturated fats in the WVO which will dictate the amount of methanol/lye needed to complete the process. Only uses a couple of ounces to do this.

5. Greascar is very different from biodiesel. Not saying it's a bad system...just wouldn't try doint it yourself. Buy a professionaly built system that does all the fuel switching for you. Greatly reduces the chance of damaging your engine.

Feel free to ask any questions if any come to mind,
Fish

markdoane · 04-09-2006, 07:17 PM

Fish,

Congratulations and keep up the good work.

The only thing I don't understand is who will buy the glycerine?

If you are making thousand gallon batches, it would be worthwhile to purify and sell the glycerine, but in smaller volumes will just be a waste stream looking for a gutter or gopher hole.

Unless you mix it with a little nitric acid and make nitroglycerine.

wahoonc · 04-09-2006, 07:50 PM

2air,
To me the biggest advantage of poop, bio, or ethy is the renewablility of it. When dino fuels are gone, they is GONE! There are several theories and theorists that feel that we are on a downward spiral, and that the Arabian fields have maxed out and will be in a decline. What I find interesting is that Brazil has gone 100% ethanol...they get theirs from sugar cane. Basically told OPEC where to shove it

It did not happen overnight, but it can be done...unfortunately not in a country that has a strong oil lobby like the US of A.

Aaron

Fish36991 · 04-09-2006, 08:24 PM

I don't want to mess with anything that unstable there Mark, but there are companies that can use glycerine (link). We never dump anything! We are currently making 500 gallon batches and we're designing the 10,000 gallon processor now as well.

From all of our research, the best renewable source for the oils to make biodiesel is algae. Algae can be 'grown' in 48 hours to make WAY more oil than any McDonald's can do in a week with a decent size algae farm. We have plenty of farm land to develope this on, but we're still trying to find the correct method.

Algae is the fastest turn-around time of any oil source which is the highest oil yield per acre. There are several theories of which types of land produces the best results for this. Some say near nuclear reactors, and some just say warmer climates....who knows right now. We're trying to figure all these things out as well. Luckily, we have several wealthy farmers who are willing to help us to help them...so it works out well and we like helping the farm/farmers.

When you talk about telling OPEC to stick it somewhere...this is the real method. Then, we'll have to convert all of your motorhomes to diesels! Yeah...more projects. I best you could sell that to your wives a lot easier if algaediesel was steady at $1.40 per gallon.

Fish