BioDiesel Fuel

[j54mark]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

What I find interesting is that Brazil has gone 100% ethanol...they get theirs from sugar cane. Basically told OPEC where to shove it It did not happen overnight, but it can be done...unfortunately not in a country that has a strong oil lobby like the US of A.

Aaron

No, that works best in a country where there is a strong sugar lobby. Like Brazil. Their example is fairly representative of what happens when a corrupt government orders their ordinary citizens to pay more for a product so that huge land barons can get even more wealthy. Or what Archers-Daniels-Midland would like to see happen here (talk about your powerful lobbiests....).

Folks, there ain't no big evil conspiracy out there to keep you from having 20 cent per gallon fuel once again. To make biodiesel, alcohol, hydrogen, or synthetic coal fuels TAKES energy. In some cases it takes MORE energy than the resulting fuel contains. In other cases there is a rather limited source of potential supply.

What makes oil so desirable is that it comes nearly ready to burn. It is cheap to pump, cheap to transport, and cheap to refine. Even some of the more expensive-to-process versions - tar sands, for example - are far cheaper than the current alternatives. The problems with oil are well known, of course.

People around the globe are working hard on alternatives to oil. This is because they are greedy too, just like the oil companies. A successful product will be worth billion$, maybe trillion$. So maybe someday I'll be planting switchgrass down in the bottom to sell as a fuel stock. And maybe someday I'll fly on a hydrogen fueled aircraft.

But in the meantime, watch out for the snake oil salesmen.

Mark

[Fish36991]

One more quick little bit of info:

From 1978 to 1996, the U.S. National Renewable Energy Laboratory experimented with using algae as a biodiesel source in the "Aquatic Species Program". A recent paper from Michael Briggs at the UNH Biodiesel Group, offers estimates for the realistic replacement of all vehicular fuel with biodiesel by utilizing algae that has a greater than 50 % natural oil content, which he suggests can be grown on algae ponds at wastewater treatment plants. [2]
Meanwhile, independent results have shown that GreenFuel Technologies[3], a Cambridge, MA company founded by Isaac Berzin, has been successful in producing biodiesel growing algae on flue gas emissions from power plant smokestacks. Using a patented algae bioreactor, GreenFuel utilizes microalgae and a process of photomodulation to reduce emissions: 40 percent less carbon dioxide and 86 percent less nitrous oxide. This oil-rich algae can then be extracted from the system and processed into biodiesel, and the dried remainder further reprocessed to create ethanol. The company is testing their method at the MIT cogeneration facility and at an undisclosed 1000-megawatt power facility in the southwestern U.S. [4]


A quote from Here (in the history area)

[MarkExc500]

Originally Posted by Fish36991

I'm glad I ran across this thread.

I currently make biodiesel. Here are a couple of quick notes for the interested. I'm not super expert but I do have some experience in making it and using it in my 2004 Duramax....runs great by the way.

1. I will run in the Sprinter just fine. Any diesel newer than 1985 will have the newer gaskets, seals and hoses that biodiesel will not break down. These were implemented in 85 due to the change made in petro diesel to meet EPA low sulphur requirements. Dodge says no so you will be less likely to pour a low quality or unfiltered biodiesel in your rig. They do not warranty biodiesel or petro diesel in any vechicle by the way.

2. You will not have to collect crap to make biodiesel. You mix your lye with methanol (bought in bulk in drums or tanks to keep the cost lower) and mixed with the filtered SVO in the processor.

3. The 'waste' is glycerol which can be further processed to recover extra methanol (which can be reused) and the glycerine....which can be sold as well.

4. The titration tests are to determine the level of saturated fats in the WVO which will dictate the amount of methanol/lye needed to complete the process. Only uses a couple of ounces to do this.

5. Greascar is very different from biodiesel. Not saying it's a bad system...just wouldn't try doint it yourself. Buy a professionaly built system that does all the fuel switching for you. Greatly reduces the chance of damaging your engine.

Feel free to ask any questions if any come to mind,
Fish

What system do you use/recommend? Appleseed/GirlMark? Fuelmeister?

Have you gone to one of the biodiesel classes recently?

I am interested in making about 200 gallons a month for my own use.

Thanks,
Mark

[markdoane]

Fish,

Thanks for all the algae links. I haven't been following the algae-oil technology, I'm more in the cellulosic ethanol (pronounced "switchgrass") camp.

I read the thing on glycerine earlier, and it still smells like smoke and mirrors trying to cover up a dirty little secret.

I'm all for making 10,000 gallons at a time and investing in a still to purify the glycerine. But I worry about the backyard and garage operators that are just sending the waste products down the toilet. Or dumping it out back at night.

[Tarheel]

Our local paper has an article on biodiesel today. The town of Manteo NC is setting up a program to use it in their gov't trucks and buses. The cost was thought to be $1.50 per gallon using free waste cooking oil. They had two concerns 1st was it was more votile 2nd it would ruin rubber hoses and 'o' rings. They didn't mention the tank heaters, less fuel mileage and loss of horsepower. The loss of horsepower probably isn't that much of an issue with school buses here in the flatlands. If I knew how to post the article I would do so. I think it might be somewhat lengthy to cut and paste.

[markdoane]

Is this the article: http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories...734&ran=183818

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

2air,
To me the biggest advantage of poop, bio, or ethy is the renewablility of it. When dino fuels are gone, they is GONE! Aaron

hi aaron and the rest of you greazzzzzzzr's....

renewability is a tricky issue....

wood products, for example are 'renewable' but the quality of wood products has declined with 'new wood'...and tree cover continues to decline....as the land under it becomes more valuable for living space...

the energy costs to produce energy from plant products....is still greater than the reward....perhaps someday....and pushing the technology is useful...for the learning that is generated.....moreso than the fuel right now....

with ethanol slated to replace mtbe as a gasoline additive....we will have an ethanol shortage nationwide this year....without e85 included....

agriculture is hard on the enviroment and only gets worse when farming is supersized...waste from animal production is hugh issue....collecting and using it is sort of like an epa superfund clean up process....

so renewable energy schemes work best right now at the boutique scale or bus fleets or solo gonzo guys....if ya got the space and energy....go for it.....i love the smell of french fries in the morning! or crispy cremes or peanuts....

and we agree completely on the declining supply of oil...but as j54mark notes....we are still using the easiest, cheapest of the oil supply....like fish in a barrel....

early in the oil refinery days...it was more like hogs...every bit was used including the oink....and refinery development was progressing with each distilled fraction finding value...

then came high grade west texas crude....almost ready to use out of the ground...this along with high grade middle east oil (which is pretty good stuff too)....lead to more 'discovery efforts' and less refinery science....

sure this supply will go sooner or later...and at a greatly increasing pace....with china now awakened to development.

but right now the usa is still taking the easy route...even if expensive for the citizens....using this arab oil.....and now we have started IMPORTING gasoline....at a record pace (we make 17mil gal/day...we use 20mil gal/day...do the math)....because "ordering out" is less messy than making it at home....

i've read that the usa has within the coastal borders...enough oil to supply our needs for 57 years....without a drop of import. but we've greatly reduced using our own....shall we list the reasons why?

the 2nd largest oil reserve on the planet (after the middle east)...is CANADA.
and as j54mark points out..getting the oil out of the mud, now that crude is 60+$ a barrel....is priced right......

burning oil is still gonna do whatever it does to earth and the atmosphere....
burning grass/bio/veggie/methane....and even alcohol....produces byproducts......that are nasty.

hydrogen really seems to be the long term clean solution....with lots more diesel usage in the mean time....

back to the original post..... the fuel injectors on the superduties become an issue unless the biod is extremely clean....

older diesels seem to tolerate diverse fuel sources better.....


and did you guys see that an audi v12 diesel won the 12 hours of sebring this year!!! a new car/drivetrain wins the first race entered!

bring on the diesel race cars!!

cheers
2air'

[2airishuman]

other thoughts for markexc500....

the expert superduty mechanics suggest no more that 10-15%biod....for the new superduties...

i'd think about warranty issues too....remember the 3year/36 goes to 100k on the powerplant....pretty sure biod will screw the engine warranty big time....

and it would be coversion would be hard to hide....at service time.

i've been in the 05 a year and considered biod, propane, banks systems and so on....now that i've had minor service issues....i'm glad that the truck is still stock...

if i had an old vw diesel car...i'd go for biod right now.....

cheers
2air'

[wahoonc]

My truck and tractors are all out from under warranty so bring on the bio We have soy based biodiesel availble to us in the next county over. The local farmers' coop is producing it. There is a second plant under construction up at Mount Olive, NC. So it is available just not universally so. I understand the concept and attractions of hydrogen, but that stuff is highly explosive and corrosive (at least in the forms I have seen) I have been working at a plant that uses hydrogen for some part of it's processes, when the "H" truck is on site all work and I mean all work stops, all hot work permits are suspended and you walk not drive to the break area....

Aaron

[Fish36991]

Markexe,
We started out with a system similiar to the appleseed system. Our first processor was 200 gallons and we used farm tanks to do it. Depending on how fast you plan on producing, there are many options out there for tanks. We don't use hot water heaters at all, most of our heating is done by the sunlight and we only have to warm it up a little before producing. You need to check out what farms have for sale...it will save you a ton of money and you will get equipment that is very well made. Most farms have way more tanks and pumps than they really need.

Markdoane,
No problem on the info....it's really intersting if you're currently making bio. I also worry about people starting out with good intentions for properly taking care of their glycerol and it becomes too much of a pain to deal with. I can only hope people are not dumping it out back. I'm not a tree hugger (more of a cheap bastard who wants cheap fuel) but I still wouldn't want everyone just making their on little dumping spot.

2airishuman,
You're correct about needing to filter your biodiesel very well. If you don't, your injectors will let you know. I'll agree that petro fuel is the cheapest way of producing fuel from a virgin stock, but bio is cheaper if you can find a decent source of your WVO. Currently most WVO is used for make-up, soap, and animal feed (mainly chickens). The WVO has started to gain some value recently and (I THINK) may become a bidding war for Bio makers and chicken companies. This will basically run the WVO up to a price where it again makes it cheaper to buy petrodiesel.

The United States has tried to hoard our own oil (since the 70's shortage) and import as much as possible. While this does protect us and ensure that we'll have oil in the future, as the oil supply goes down (everywhere) the price will go up. It doesn't matter if there is enough for 400 years out there, there are people who are litterally banking on it and running the price up. Algae on the other hand, is definitely the future.

There isn't any conversion needed for biodiesel...only for WVO. The dealer can't tell what fuel has been previously run through your diesel, only what is in it right now. I usually don't run more than 50/50 blend of bio/petro due to the temp swings in NC.

There is no easy way to get methanol or ethanol.

Tarheel,
Manteo (like most other schools here in NC) don't have the newest buses. If they're older, then that may be why they had concerns with any rubber component that would contact the biodiesel.

Thanks,
Fish

[Fish36991]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

The local farmers' coop is producing it. There is a second plant under construction up at Mount Olive, NC.

Aaron,
If you pay the small fee and join the co-op, you can get even better deals on the biodiesel usually. Also, every co-op that I know keeps their bio tested to make sure it passes all standards. You should be able to run this with no problems. I would still consider blending it your self in your tank. At least a little petro diesel in the tank will make a big difference in the temp the bio will begin to sludge. Just my opinion though...

Fish

[Chaplain Kent]

I am a city dweller and will never have a bio still in my backyard. As of now bio-diesel is virtually impossible to find in this area. I tried it a couple times, when it was available, while travelling and liked the result, quieter, power, and odor. What concerns me about dino-diesel now is the fluctuating price. It has become just like gasoline and can raise .20 to .40 cents overnight. In fact it seems to keep pace with the gasoline increases which was not the case a while back. No longer can we budget a trip since fuel is our #1 expense.
Fish36991, if I travel by your place can I pull in for a fill up?

[Tarheel]

yes Mark thanks, since I have to log in on the Virginian Pilot to see the article I didn't think they would let me link it to the outside world, shows you what I know.
This appears to be a distillation process from what I see and read, is this correct? Looks more like grain alcohol than diesel fuel. With all the waste generated by peanuts, soy bean sand corn it would be a wonderful way to make fuel greener.

[gyandell]

There is chemistry involved in making bio-fuels and it may cost a little more up front, but the real advantage is becoming more self-reliant. Collecting the oil and doing your test and making your own way. Plus a cleaner burning engine for the environment. Greasel.com eliminates the need to even process the oil into bio-fuels.We have RV's we have big trucks I believe we have a reponsabilty to look for better ways.

[markdoane]

Originally Posted by Tarheel

. . This appears to be a distillation process from what I see and read, is this correct? Looks more like grain alcohol than diesel fuel. With all the waste generated by peanuts, soy bean sand corn it would be a wonderful way to make fuel greener.

Rick,

No, I think this is the WVO (waste veg. oil) biodiesel process. I hope they are able to make it work.

Again, I have reservations about anyone who believes that the local MacDonalds is desparate to find a way to get rid of all that used frying oil.

In many cases that oil is already spoken for. If not, it soon will be. I think it is great that small operators are able to get up and running, and prove out the process, on free fryer oil and free labor. But those days will quickly come to an end.

The WVO process will always be a boutique operation. Maybe all the waste vegetable oil produced in the country will be enough to run all the school buses in the country. But what about all the farm tractors, and the RVs, and the Walmart trucks, and the locomotives?

I think the WVO process distacts the public from the HUGE problem facing us as we drain the world of dinofuel. A group of politicians and TV reporters can get on their soapboxes and preach to the choir about how much good we're doing by recycling the fryfat from MacDonalds. Give me a break!

It isn't gonna make a bit of difference. It's spitting in the ocean.

Now if you can make a viable, large scale process, like algae-oil (or whatever Fish is working on), then I'm interested. Or ethanol from switchgrass. Or true biodiesel from crops. We need to quit messing around with 5 gallon buckets and old water heaters.

Or show me an economic analysis of the WVO process that includes reasonable costs for raw materials, disposal of waste glycerin and ffa, and labor costs.

[bobechs]

"It's spitting in the ocean"

It is always interesting to read about these boutique technologies, especially with a give-and-take discussion about implementing them in practice. But when the discussion goes airy-fairy about saving the planet, or that this will ethically justify driving around solo in 7800 lb. station wagons, it wears me out a bit.

By analogy, running a weekend's worth of electrical appliances from a pair of 50W-75W photovoltaics on the roof of an Airstream may be feasible, even if not strictly cost-competitive kwh for kwh with the perhaps unavailable commercial grid. But to extend that level of power use to urban or suburban family living is just ludicrous. Even if a commited zealot can limp through the year on just 300 wh/day, supplementing with a pig-waste digester or burning deadfall wood, it implies nothing for the scale of enterprise needed to support modern civilization.

That is not to say that all attempts to change our current bad habits are futile. But as you say, if this results in hobbyists thinking that their intentions provide them a pass on being realistic about the effects, good and bad, of their undertakings, thet is a very mistaken idea.

Missing from all the discussion so far is one other important dimension of environmental responsibility, carbon emmissions and greenhouse gas effects. Of course, petro-diesel turns into carbon dioxide and water vapor, like all fossil fuels. Also like most alternative fuel sources too. If we wish to restrict carbon emmissions to the lowest feasible level we must assess biodiesel with its own relative share of this problem too.

Someone wondered earlier where the necessary methanol for bioconversion comes from. The answer is coal, naptha and natural gas. http://www.techhistory.co.nz/ThinkBig/Methanol.htm In fact, I remember reading an article in Home Power magazine a few years back where the author stated that in his application the cost of methanol in drums worked out to about $.75/gal of produced biodiesel, which was just a few cents per gallon less than the wholesale pre-tax price of petrodiesel at that time. Only with free feedstock and labor and equipment accounted for at zero did his application make sense.

Of course since then there has been quite a run up in the base cost of petrodiesel, but I expect methanol, a fossil fuel product, has gone up some too.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

My truck and tractors are all out from under warranty so bring on the bio We have soy based biodiesel availble to us in the next county over. The local farmers' coop is producing it. I understand the concept and attractions of hydrogen, but that stuff is highly explosive and corrosive. Aaron

hi aaron and other sludge luggers....

it makes me proud when local farmers take an issue and solve it locally.....

when i get make to a rural homestead.....i'll join the coop too....

using veggie oil looks like an ideal measure for you.....wahoonc

the potential for hydrogen to explode is real but over stated....

and believeing this, might make city drivers more careful....
and instead of driving an edsel....
i can drive a hindenburg......

cigar anyone?

cheers
2air'

[gyandell]

The question in this thread got off wack. The question was about making Bio from the appleseed processor or some other form. If you don't want to make it or use it don't. Spitting in the Ocean.Sure, but there is nothing airy-fairy about saving the planet. A tree hugger wears me out just as much. It was just about Homebrewing your own fuel. There are plenty of small time places,unlike the big chain places who probably have contracts with feed operations,that are more than willing to give up their WVO and the glycerine can be made into soap and you can recover the methanol. My point is it's just something that people want to do for themselves,just like any other hobby. When the dinofuel runs out there are plenty of great forums just like the airstream forum t teach those who want to on a small scale to help themselves.
The deisel was built originally to run on peanut oil to be harvested directly off of the farm

[Pick]

The deisel was built originally to run on peanut oil to be harvested directly off of the farm

To bad peanut oil is so darned expensive. I saw some for $36 for a "not quite 5 gallon" jug of it. Peanut farmers around here complain about the price of peanuts being in the dumper.

Bio was used by our county government a few years ago. They quit using it when price and availability became an issue.

[Chaplain Kent]

There is a good article in this month's "Popular Mechanics" on alternate fuels. They also discuss manufacturing and a nifty on board conversion process.