New member restoring 1969 C11

[ticki2]

That is a nice looking grey tank , we should get together , mine has a SS fresh tank that the PO put in . I did manage to find a 10gal ABS tank to fit for a grey tank . I will be interested in how you plumb yours . I didn't have enough room to cross over the main 3" waste from the black tank with the shower drain so it is still direct to the waste pipe , no tank . I could have rapped the trap around it but was afraid the grey tank when full would back up into the shower , they are close to the same level .

[M2HB]

Originally Posted by ticki2

That is a nice looking grey tank , we should get together , mine has a SS fresh tank that the PO put in . I did manage to find a 10gal ABS tank to fit for a grey tank . I will be interested in how you plumb yours . I didn't have enough room to cross over the main 3" waste from the black tank with the shower drain so it is still direct to the waste pipe , no tank . I could have rapped the trap around it but was afraid the grey tank when full would back up into the shower , they are close to the same level .

The 3" slide valve and line is just like it was except at the end where the 2" discharge of the gray water tank (left side) dumps into the 3" dump fitting. That ABS fitting had to be hand made.
The 2" shower drain dumps in the gray water tank on the right side of the camper. (I will use a band aid, rubber, type connection). The 1-1/2" fitting on the right, rear of the gray water tank is for the 1-1/2" line with the trap. The 2" discharge on the left side of the gray water tank will have it's own 2" slide valve that will be accessible from the opening on the left side of the camper (where the electrical cord is). It dumps into the 3" discharge line that is coming from the black water tank, after the 3" black water slide valve. That is the 1/4 bend that needed to be specially made.

As far as I can figure, the stainless steel gray water tank is approximately 19 gallons.

The galvanized gas line () and the city water line had to be relocated to the rear, around the gray water tank. It is against code to use galvanized pipe on gas anyway, so a repipe was in order.

For structural purposes, the gray water tank is located as far forward as it can go. The angle section is made to fit the contour of the fiberglass covering.

[ticki2]

I did almost the same as you describe . I added a vent to the 3" for better shower flow since it is still connected to the 3" . It's a very tight fit in there .

[M2HB]

ticki2, your system is very similar. We had the stainless steel gray water tank built to accept the 1-1/2" shower line (with trap) on the back side of the tank. We have the 2" kitchen and lav sink line coming into the gray water tank on the right side, like yours. We added a 1/2" FPT fitting at the top of the gray water tank that I will run up the vent chase to help vent the gray water tank. I don't think that it is necessary, but it can't hurt.
We looked all over and couldn't find a gray water tank that would fit for our purpose so my FiL looked around for quite some time before finding the right manufacturer to build the tank.

[M2HB]

ticki2, did you have to take out the 1/2" galvanized pipe that provided LP to the refrigerator on the left side? It ran across the front of the fiberglass housing, attached to the bottom of the floor. We had to remove ours to get the gray water tank in.
By the way, what year is your Avion C-11?

Also, where did you get your PVC dump 1/4 bend with the 2" side inlet? We made one out of ABS.

[ticki2]

Originally Posted by M2HB

ticki2, did you have to take out the 1/2" galvanized pipe that provided LP to the refrigerator on the left side? It ran across the front of the fiberglass housing, attached to the bottom of the floor. We had to remove ours to get the gray water tank in.
By the way, what year is your Avion C-11?

Also, where did you get your PVC dump 1/4 bend with the 2" side inlet? We made one out of ABS.

I had no galvanized pipe on mine , the gas lines are all soft copper tubing . My C-11 is an early '68 . I mounted the tank with 2 aluminum straps so didn't need full length access like yours . BTW as you probably know the floor is a sandwich of 3/8 "ply,1"foam and 3/8"ply so not solid wood . Not much wood for your flange to screw to and your tank will be heavy being 19 gal and SS , just something to think about . How are you connecting the plastic pipe to the SS tank , they don't look like external hubs on the tank ?

The PVC fitting is a 90 ell w/side inlet . It's made by Genova pipe , pn 73131 , it is also made in ABS pn 83132 but could not find one available anywhere and no one would order a box of 20 to sell me 1

What will prevent the grey tank when full from backing up through the shower drain , especially on a hill ? .

[M2HB]

Originally Posted by ticki2

I had no galvanized pipe on mine , the gas lines are all soft copper tubing . My C-11 is an early '68 . I mounted the tank with 2 aluminum straps so didn't need full length access like yours . BTW as you probably know the floor is a sandwich of 3/8 "ply,1"foam and 3/8"ply so not solid wood . Not much wood for your flange to screw to and your tank will be heavy being 19 gal and SS , just something to think about . How are you connecting the plastic pipe to the SS tank , they don't look like external hubs on the tank ?

The PVC fitting is a 90 ell w/side inlet . It's made by Genova pipe , pn 73131 , it is also made in ABS pn 83132 but could not find one available anywhere and no one would order a box of 20 to sell me 1

What will prevent the grey tank when full from backing up through the shower drain , especially on a hill ? .

My cantilevered 2 x 2 x 1/8 angle iron bracket that is attached to the left wing will hold most of the weight of the gray water tank. It is on top of the floor and is hidden, and attached to the inside of the closet. There will be a 1/4-20 stainless steel bolt that will drop down on each side of the tank, from the bracket on top of the floor (post 29), and there will be an angle iron that will extend along the bottom of the gray water tank flange to spread the load.
On the right side I made a braket that mounts vertically to the right wing and it will catch the right, front, side of the gray water tank. This bracket sits behind and right of the furnace. It will use a similar setup of a couple of 1/4-20 bolts to catch the tank through the floor.
The tank, full of water, will weigh approximately 200 #. That isn't a lot of weight considering it is hanging from steel that is across the top of the floor. The only part that isn't hanging from steel on top of the floor is the right rear corner, and I am looking at angle iron under the floor attached through the floor to my right wing bracket.

There is nothing that stops the gray water from entering the shower, but the shower is around 2" (I need to measure it again) above the top of the tank. Besides, it is just gray water, and without some kind of check valve, there would be no way to stop it. I doubt that it will be full very often since it is 19 gallons. I now have a 40 gallon internal water tank, but I do have 32 gallons of reserve water under the trailer.

All the stainless steel fittings are threaded (stainless steel couplings) internal to the tank. This gives me more room the make up the connections. They will be either threaded (one end) ABS nipples screwed into the stainless couplings (internal to the tank) or ABS threaded adapters threaded into the ss couplings. The plain end of the nipple will use a rubber slip on connector with hose clamps to attach to the existing pipes. This will be very sturdy and water tight.

[ticki2]

Looks like you have all the bases covered . Using mine on a truck I was a little concerned putting too much weight in the back for the COG , for your application it doesn't matter . I also used several rubber Fernco connectors for ease of assemble and dis-assembly in case of future repair. Post some pics of the final install .

[M2HB]

ticki2, did you take off the fiberglass cover to get everything in? I assume that you did. That was the hardest part of the entire job. When building the camper, they put over a dozen nails into the fiberglass cover, into the plywood floor, in order to hold it in place. Then they put the aluminum on the camper. The aluminum covered the heads of the nails. That made it very difficult to get the fiberglass cover off. Once you have all the screws out and you think you are done, you are just beginning. If they would have put just a couple on each side it wouldn't have been so bad.

The Avion camper, when empty, has a balance slightly behind the rear axle. This isn't a good situation, and adding a gray water tank of any kind doesn't help. If I were to empty all the fresh water and carry a full load of black and gray water it would push the balance point further back than I like. It isn't so much weight that it will create major problems, but a person should be aware that dumping the waste tanks is a good idea when you are empty of fresh water. This would apply whether or not the camper is on a trailer or a pickup. I am building this one to use either way. I have a Ford F-350 that I can put it on, but I just hate having to remove the camper after every trip. That is why I wanted the trailer. Besides, I wanted to carry more water and a large LP stove along with other items. I added about 15 pounds slightly behind the rear axle with a larger refrigerator, but I lowered some weight, further back, by replacing the heavy china toilet with a modern plastic one. I couldn't get parts for the old one. The other thing to remember, is to load the camper with most of the weight forward as far as possible. We used to do that years ago when the camper was in use. We would put all the canned goods as low and far forward as we could get it.

I just weighed the tank and it is 35.8#. That means when the tank is full of water it will weigh 193.8#.

[ticki2]

No I did not remove the plastic cover . I thought of it , even thought about increasing it's depth to give more room for larger tanks and piping . I decided against it for 2 reasons . One I wanted to be able to repair or replace things in the future , should the need arise , without having to remove the plastic . Second , my camper is so close to original I didn't want to change anything so obvious , I have upgraded some electrical , plumbing and insulation but they are all hidden . It's just me . BTW , the last model under the Cayo name did have an extended ( lower ) plastic tank area .

Good to know about those hidden nails if I ever have to remove the plastic .

I also realized something else today , I may very well have the earliest surviving C-11 at sn 004.

[M2HB]

We installed the stainless steel gray water tank today. It mounted up there real nice and everything was perfect........ until we realized that the 3" ABS pipe will interfere with the fiberglass cover. If we would have made the 2" inlet 1" further rearward, which would have moved the tank 1" forward, everything would have been fine. I really want to leave a little room between the tank and the front of the fiberglass cover since it may not be perfectly straight like the tank is, so leaving the tank and modifying the cover is the way to go. The fiberglass cover has a taper on the vertical piece right in front of the step. There was no reason to make it taper forward as it goes down, but they did. We have a couple of choices, we can offset the connection on the inlet and move the tank forward, or we can cut the fiberglass cover in front of the step and have it reglassed in a vertical shape instead of tapered. Since we need some minor fiberglass work done anyway, we decided to modify the fiberglass. My grandfather hit something and broke a small piece on the right front of the cover and made a repair that wasn't done properly since the cover wasn't removed to do a proper repair. While the fiberglass is being repaired, I'm going to have it strengthened a little. I am going to have it painted in Automotive metalic Silver so it should look really sharp with a base coat, clear coat paint job. It is obvious that if Avion had been trying to put a gray water tank in the camper originally, this cover would not have been tapered at that small location.

Stainles Steel gray water tank. The 1/4-20 bolts haven't been installed yet because I can't do that until my angle iron brackets are installed, and they can't be installed until the cabinets go back in.





The upholstery shop removed the old flooring. The camper looks 100 times better with the old flooring removed. I can't wait for the new flooring to go in. We removed the wall near the furnace so that the flooring can be put in properly as one piece. The original flooring was put in with 2 pieces. The best news is that I have found no rot in the entire structural area.


I carefully fit some Formica to go over the right wing. This will be visable when you open the door under the sink. It also helps waterproof the entire area, even under the water heater. It is so thin that it won't affect the cabinet and counter top.



This is a picture of the fiberglass cover removed. You can see the slight taper in front of where the step goes. We will cut that area out and make it fit right back, except it will be vertical without the taper.

[M2HB]

Here is a picture of the formica cover on a new piece of 1/2" plywood that will set under the new refrigerator.



The coil section near the top needed to be modified to allow the refrigerator to be pushed closer to the wall. The curve in the wall is what is causing the problem. What a guy won't do for a larger refrigerator.

[M2HB]

After careful review of the fiberglass cover in relationship to the new tank we have determined that it will probably fit. We may have 1/8" clearance. The problem isn't the new stainless steel gray water tank, since it has plenty of clearance for the 3" pipe as shown by the picture below. You can see the clearance for the discharge of the black water tank.


The problem is that when Avion built the camper, the 3" pipe wasn't perpendicular to the camper. The just shoved it in to fit. When at the bottom of the fiberglass cover and all the way back against the tapered wall for the rear step, the pipe is not quite square with the camper. If there is something I can't stand is shoddy workmanship and things that are not plumb, lever, or square when they are supposed to be. The tank is square with the camper.
By raising the discharge end of the 3" ABS pipe by 1/2", while still providing plenty of grade for flow, the pipe will be square with the camper and still have 1/8" clearance. Had the fiberglass cover been designed and built properly it would have well over an inch of clearance. I couldn't understand why we had a problem with the measurements when it is obvious that there is clearance for the 3" line. The problem is that I was assuming that is was square to begin with. It wasn't.

I built and installed a special bracket for the city water connection. I have one more joint to make where I tie in the new pipe to the existing flare fitting going vertical into the camper. This is one of the few pieces of original pipe that I will use.
See the picture below of the galvanized LP pipe and the city water pipe in copper that is just hanging in mid air. Both of those pipes have been removed since they didn't meet code or they were installed improperly. They both needed to be removed anyway, to fit in the new gray water tank. There was a piece of the 1/2" nominal soft copper that was almost rubbed through. I'm glad that I'm changing it.

[Avion C-11]

Great pics and discussions guys! You all are definitely paving the way for me as plumbing and interior are right around the corner for me.

I have finished deanodizing mine and rebuilding the rear door. I'll get some pic updates out soon. I've been very busy and haven't had time to update the forums.

[M2HB]

Originally Posted by Avion C-11

Great pics and discussions guys! You all are definitely paving the way for me as plumbing and interior are right around the corner for me.

I have finished deanodizing mine and rebuilding the rear door. I'll get some pic updates out soon. I've been very busy and haven't had time to update the forums.

I've seen your pictures and you are doing an awesome job.

We had a good day today.

I was able to get a lot of the under camper water line done.

This picture shows the new water line and new LP line that now goes around the stainless steel gray water tank.


The original city water connection came out of the fiberglass cover and the fitting was attached to the fiberglass. Not a good idea.
This is a picture of the new one. I used a drop ear "L" and mounted it to the floor. The connection will go out the same hole, but there will be no stress on the fiberglass.


Which floor looks best?

Before:


After:





Here is a picture of my reworked hold down "U" bolts. They originally didn't put an extra plate under the aluminum and just pulled the U bolt up until they almost disappeared.
The correct way to install them.

[M2HB]

It was a long, hot day today but we got a lot done.

Picture of Dynamat used to "line" duct area for refrigerator. It cost about $60, but was money well spent.


Closet going in. We put it in and took it out three times, sanding it in different areas to get it to fit. We are experts at removing it.
Notice the Dynamat on the back side where the refrigerator duct is.


Closet setting upright with my steel reinforcing piece being slid in before the closet is pushed back onto the left wing. I highly suggest this piece. It replaces the cheap wood block that holds the closet to the floor in the back and also reinforces the floor. This steel piece will help hold the stainless steel gray water tank.


Closet in place with refrigerator in it. This is a Dometic RM 2510 that is 5 cu'. I really like the new refrigerator, but it does stick out about 4" where the old one only stuck out just under 2". I made a new trim piece for it.


Structural reinforcing piece for my stainless steel gray water tank. This one attaches to the right wing, in the wall and right of the furnace.


Back of new refrigerator. Notice the formica covered pad.


New countertop.




It has been weeks of long hours. Now it is time for the upholstery shop to do their work on the cushions, the curtains and finish the inside of the camper.

[M2HB]

The upholstery shop is just starting to make the cushions. They will be a combination of blue and gray. I think that they will look real sharp.
We put some more of the interior in.

The floor area under the dinette.



The cabinets back in.





The water tank area. We are putting in a 40 gallon tank with 3 stainless steel straps. This ares is lines with the flooring on the front and rubber baseboard on the sides and back, with caulking all the way around to help seal it in case the tank leaks.

[M2HB]

For those who have Avion campers, you probably have seen the table, when used as a bed, fall through the wood mounts. When the table bows is pushes the tank wall area forward causing the table top to fall through the space. It happened to me a few decades ago, when I was a teenager. As I recall, it happened more than once. While doing the rebuild, I figured that I should fix it.

This table won't bow very easily.

[Jammer]

Great work and excellent photos!

[M2HB]

Things would go much faster if I didn't have to do them several times. Today, we removed the counter top and kitchen cabinet to get to the gravity fill water line. I bought a RV 1-1/4" hose from a local RV dealer. This was one of those junk hoses that is white and green. By looking at it, I knew better but that is all they had. When sanitizing it with bleach water, we noticed a leak. Fortunately the applicances weren't back in. We replaced the junk hose with a hose from Home Depot. It was over $4 per foot and was worth every penny.
Picture sanitizing new hose that doesn't leak. Notice the stainless steel reinforcing over where the copper line was inserted into a dug out area of the right wing.


Picture of water heater. This is the 3rd time piping it. The first time I used the original layout with flare fittings. I then decided not to use copper piping to the fixtures, so I went with compression fitting so that I could use stainless steel flex lines. When I went to install it, the original layout wouldn't fit with the new water heater. I installed another street 45 and a shorter nipple to condense the layout some.


This is how tight it is.


This is the 40 gallon water tank. It is tight, but it fits. I will strap it down with stainless steel straps and armaflex tape.


This is the 3" black water pipe with the 1-1/2" shower "P" trap going into the gray water tank.


A picture of the new 3" black water adapter with the 1-1/2" shower line and "P" trap installed into the gray water tank.