RV Weather Insulation. Could it be better?

[Vitaver]

If there was a wish list on this Forum where we can suggest improvements to the Factory, I would put near the top of my list to research and come up with better thermal insulation between the external walls of the Airstream. Any info on this? If that could be improved it will significantly increase the enjoyment of our trailers in hot and cold weather, and save a lot of money in heating/cooling.

[OTRA15]

I just commented on the Winter Camping thread, and would appreciate an update there on your propane use and plumbing condition after your recent cold snap with strong winds. The AS's marginal R value for insulation was the main point I was trying to make last week, in commenting that only massive infusions of propane could save one's plumbing during extreme cold weather.

The thickness of the walls, and the many penetrations for mechanical equipment access, plumbing, electric, propane etc. make it unlikely IMO that a new space-age type of insulation would make much if any difference, even if AS wanted to up the R value. Thicker walls would do it, but the cost in usable space and weight is obvious.

Thanks in advance for your feedback on your propane usage and plumbing condition, including the exterior shower and holding tanks and dump valves.

[tevake]

Yes sir, if they could find a little of the insulation magic in the resent generation of stainless steel coffee mugs, Then we would be getting somewhere good!

Cheers Richard

[Vitaver]

I am running two space heaters, one is the Dyson 09 (which I will return today unless I receive sensible advice to the contrary by a Forum member) and an Utilitech. The Dyson does not have the option to chose between using higher or lower KWh, so not sure what is using. I run an Utilitech and low (has options: off, fan, low heat, high heat) which I believe is takin 750 Wph. Thermostat set at 69F all day. Furnace kicks in and out for a minute or less at the time and ambient themperature reads either 68 or 69. The cold snap started 24 hours ago here in Golden, CO, about -2 outside. My two propane tanks are holding on, no problem there. I have an auto switch regulator and both bottles are open, the first bottle still delivers LPG as the regulator shows green when pointing to either bottle. Placed a heating lamp under the rig last night. No skirt. No film on the windows. Plumbing fully operational until last night when I small leak at the water faucet (city water) creeped up and froze my Camco heated hose: a stalactite of ice had formed at the faucet and I ignored it (lesson learned). Brought the hose indoors to melt the ice and will reinstall, make sure no leaks and will keep gray tank valve open and one faucet at the head dripping at all times to keep the water moving.

As for wall insulation, it is a layered approach, like when we go skiing. IF there is a more efficient (insulating) material out there which will fit on the current space between internal and external skins of our rigs, I hope factory uses it. Even if that was to increase the cost of our units a few bucks, we save it on juice for the furnace/AC/HP, adds comfort and in extreme cases (run out of LPG, power out, etc.) could better protect us inside. The best insulation in windows, plumbing, all around, etc. would be very helpful if adopted by the factory. Another issue present in several postings by various owners, is the shutting of the door in freezing conditions (when it is most needed): mine is closed thanks to a bunge cord stretched from the door handle to the dinnette leg, it won't close otherwise. These are small (but important) details on an otherwise fantastic product AS puts out. I hope they are listening...

[tevake]

Vitaver, seeing the situation you are streaming thru.
Let me strongly recommend that you get yourself one of the window flim kits.
I can't over emphasize how effective this has been in my rig.
It's quick and simple to install, and very effective at improving the interior heat management. This is something you can do today for less than $20, That will make a big difference for you.

Lasko makes some nice ceramic tower heaters that do a good job. Their upper range of heaters offer good range of temp settings on auto, as well as Hi/ Low settings.

I do feel for you, facing a lot of winter yet, all the best in getting set up to be as comfortable as possible.

Looks like you may have seen my miniskirt thread, can't yet say how effective the skirt will be as we haven't had any very cold weather since I got it in place. I'm pretty sure the skirting and drop light inside will go a long way in keeping the plumbing flowing.

But this window flim is helping significantly every day.

Cheers Richard

[jdalrymple]

It is not the space limitations, or the type of insulation.

The direct thermal conduction from the outer skins to the interior via the ribs and rivets is the bigger problem.

The wheels are the best way to heat or cool and Airstream.

Go where it is 75 degrees.


Regards,

JD

[dkottum]

The Airstream shell assembly does not lend itself to much improvement with a change of insulation. Aluminum frame with aluminum panels on both sides is a great way to build a streamline shape that is light in weight. That's the basic concept, and what makes it no better than a three-season travel trailer regardless of the insulation. Consumers love the big windows, roof vents and skylights, all providing a greater challenge to heating and cooling.

The Airstream design makes it a great travel trailer on the road, it can be pulled, stopped and handled easier than the competition. It has a very stable suspension, and it's shape is less susceptible to crosswind.

That's all good stuff. It comes at the expense of comfort in extreme outside temperatures. So they market it as a three-season recreational travel trailer and advise in the Owners Manual it is not intended for full-time use. I think their primary concern is condensation and damage from the moisture buildup.

Along with heating and additional insulation we also need to find ways to ventilate the trailer, control moisture inside and ensure there is no damage happening from it.

[mbubbaca]

Originally Posted by tevake

Vitaver, seeing the situation you are streaming thru.
Let me strongly recommend that you get yourself one of the window flim kits.
I can't over emphasize how effective this has been in my rig.
It's quick and simple to install, and very effective at improving the interior heat management. This is something you can do today for less than $20, That will make a big difference for you.

Lasko makes some nice ceramic tower heaters that do a good job. Their upper range of heaters offer good range of temp settings on auto, as well as Hi/ Low settings.

I do feel for you, facing a lot of winter yet, all the best in getting set up to be as comfortable as possible.

Looks like you may have seen my miniskirt thread, can't yet say how effective the skirt will be as we haven't had any very cold weather since I got it in place. I'm pretty sure the skirting and drop light inside will go a long way in keeping the plumbing flowing.

But this window flim is helping significantly every day.

Cheers Richard

What type of window film are you talking about? If you have a link or it's detailed in another post please share. Thanks

[glenrms]

Hey, that's the same question that I was going to ask. What does one look for in a window film and where? Is it AS specific?

[2012FB]

Our old 79 was much warmer. As mentioned the new exterior and interior aluminum skins is nothing more than a direct thermal transfer mechanism. In Colorado we like to hang out in the mountains. In the direct sun during the day it is quite hot and at night can go very cold often below freezing. We traded the 25' with one AC for the 30' with two and that helps a lot in the heat. We mainly use two nice ceramic Temp controlled space heaters with the furnace set as stand by. Disconnect water at night and blow out the hose. There should be some sort of thermal sheath or barrier between the interior aluminum skins and the aluminum ribs. This would help greatly. My last two SOBs were solid core foam with hard gel coat exterior fiber board and inner fiber board. Roof and floors were well insulated. The last a 30' with 16' center slide out stayed very cool with one 1,500 AC unit and single electric heater. Never really needed to run the furnace. Big difference. The Airstream is just not insulated well at all. Too bad given its other wonderful attributes. What would it really take at the factory to really improve it. Not much I would think, but guess I would settle for quality improvements first.


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[tevake]

Here is the kit I got at the neighborhood hardware store.
One kit is more than enough to do all the windows in the largest of coaches.

They are not hard to put in. With two doing the install it should be easy to get them in wrinkle free.
This is the first time I've used these and have been so impressed with the effect.

I do wonder about removing the adhesive later on.
But am loving how snug my bedroom is now. I've even put it over the fixed panos Windows across the back, that realy tightened it up back there.

Cheers Richard

PS just can't manage to get the pic flipped, sorry

[ijustlee]

Posts #6 & 7 sum it up pretty good and window film kits from Wal-Mart help a lot! After watching frost form on the window and door frames while 2 electric heaters and the propane furnace blast away I assumed Airstream would say "why do you think we put wheels on it?" if I called the factory! I vowed to not stay where water can freeze without refrigeration equipment helping. If you need to stay through a cold winter erecting a tent that encloses the trailer would be a dream come true for me. Due to the way Airstreams are constructed they need a lot of external energy to keep the inside at 75 degrees if the outside temperature wanders too far above or below that! One winter I saved on energy costs by lowering my army surplus camo netting down onto the roof and covering it with clear plastic sheeting! The cold rain and a few dusting s of snow didn't run down the aluminum sucking dollars out of my pocket as it went with that set-up. Looked dorky with all the string tying it together though. I'm sure that skirting with Styrofoam would help a lot also but it would be nice to not have throw it away in the spring. I tried an unvented catalytic heater and it worked good but, even using a dehumidifier, I was afraid way too much water was condensing on the inside of the outer skin. Best to go down to around Yuma Az. area for the cold season and make friends with all the other cold challenged folks in my opinion!

[knunut]

Again post 6 & 7 cover the problem with the Airstream. We have used the Window Film with Great success. We have shrunk the film so smooth you could not see it. The other choice would be a SOB that is a 4-season trailer.

[BobbyG]

Does anyone know the trade offs of them transitioning to blow-in insulation? Little bit more cost and should not add much weight, I would think.

[rostam]

Avion has spray-on foam insulation in the shell (hardened, maybe 2" thick), and a layered floor design (plywood, insulation, plywood). I don't camp in cold weathers, but people who do say its a good 4 season trailer, when it comes to keeping the trailer warm/cool. Adding these features to Airstream requires a design/workflow change, and given that Airstream sells all the trailers it makes, I am not sure they are very motivated to make any changes.

[Bill M.]

I think the fiberglass batts are about as good as they can do. They stay in place, do not degrade or settle, and eventually dry out when a leak gets them wet. But the structure does not have much insulating value.

[2012FB]

It would help if they put a self adhesive Mylar thermal barrier tape maybe .030" thick on the exterior and interior ribs to isolate the aluminum skins. That would not take much time or cost really. Would make a big difference in the direct metal to metal transfer that takes place now. As mentioned most other designs are much better insulated and sealed. Little things all the way around would help immensely.


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[tjdonahoe]

I agree on the avion having spray foam insulation , I believe it is better, I have lived in my avion year around, in nights it would be -10, never had any trouble.i haven't lived in my as's when it was very cold.

[Air83]

People are shocked when I tell them my 83' Excella has double pane windows. I'm not sure how many AS were built like this. Does anyone else have double panes? Spent this summer changed all the weather strips and checked the sealing.

[PaulnGina]

Our Avion's spray foam insulation is but one of the factors that made me choose our Avion over an Airstream. I think Airstream would do their owners a favor by incorporating foam insulation into their production process.

However, if buyers don't request it, they won't have any incentive to do it.