Rotten floor due to water leak!

[Bluto]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

It's important to note that the CCDs/Flying Clouds don't use or have the same molded bumper with a lip like the Classics.

I don't see a lip that you guys are talking about. Again, how about some pictures? Silvertwinkie, do you see a lip on the Classic?

[dznf0g]

Ok, I hope this works. This picture is taken as if you were on your back under the rear of the trailer. The black at the bottom of the picture is angle iron at the rear of the bumper, supporting the trailing edge of the bumper. The orange is the fiberglass underside of the horizontal surface of the bumper. The black at the top of the pic is the last square "tubular" crossmember of the chassis. See how the fiberglass rolls upward (I believe) between the silver trim molding and the body? The silver in the pic between the roll in the bumper fiberglass and the last crossmember is, I believe is aluminum angle iron which pockets the floor on the horizontal and the outer skin on the vertical. I would assume there is sealer in the joint between the skin and the angle. Further the rolled up lip of the bumper fiberglass creates a "dam" protecting the joint. Supporting this theory, the silver molding on the perimeter of the lower trailer is vertical with respect to the "tucked in nature of the skin, implying that the fiberglass lip of the bumper is trapped between the molding and the skin. It is not until the molding runs past the bumper corner pieces that the molding twists and takes the attitude of the tucked lower body shape. Can anybody who has had a Classic apart confirm or dispel?

[Bluto]

dznf0g,
Thanks for the pic. At least now I'll know what to look at when I get under the trailer. I hope someone can answer your questions as it will help many of us figure out which trailers are affected. I really don't want to take the rub strip off either if it is unnecessary.

[dznf0g]

Am I seeing things, or, in these models does the floor extend beyond the perimeter of the shell? This is NEVER a good thing! Been there, done that with my SOB. Sealer is good, but it always fails eventually, Floors belong within and slightly above the shell perimeter!

[dznf0g]

Another little thing to consider. I removed my license plate pocket today to replace the bulb and guess what...no gasket nor sealer. Insulation was a very wet above the cutout for the pocket...dry below. Granted, I pressure washed the trailer yesterday...but you never know. This is a direct channel for water to find the center rear floor. I corrected with closed cell foam tape on top and sides of the license plate pocket, leaving bottom open for some ventilation. Used tape as this is an occasional maintenance removal item. Thoughts?

[Rollertoaster]

I'm not sure what I'm seeing in that picture either. Sure hope it isn't the
edge of the plywood. It seems like all trailers with storage in the bumper area
would be affected, not just the front bedrooms. I took a couple of screen shots of the "How its Made" segment on Airstreams, and it seems like the aluminum
goes over the edge of the subfloor.

[dznf0g]

Yes, but what model are they building? I'm pretty sure that my Classic is as shown in your post, but I'm not sure about the Safaris and FCs and Internationals with the different bumper configuration.

[glenamoy]

Putting in a dam to stop bumper leak (seems similar to what dznf0g was discussing in his Classic) was discussed in this thread:
inexplicable bumper design

Interesting to see that--if these posts in the present thread are accurate--the Classic has just such a fix now, but not the Safaris and the Internationals. That tends to match the observations that the 8 very young trailers with floor leaks mentioned in this thread are all Safaris and Internationals.

Besides that thread, two more are instructive to read:
Bumper Area Leak? Maybe?
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...oor-64802.html

Once anyone reads these threads, it becomes clear that this bumper leak problem has been around for a long, long time. Anyone finding a leak on, say, a 1977 trailer assumes that it is just something that goes along with an old trailer. I've noticed that A/S owners seem to take a lot of pride in tearing apart their trailers and rebuilding them. That's fine and can be fun.

It is quite a different matter to have a VERY expensive trailer just out of warranty with a rotten floor. And to be one of many with very recent trailers in the same shape. And to learn that the company has been aware of the problem for eons. And to find out that they keep telling folks that it is a "maintenance" issue. That is not fine.

My trailer has been in the shop for nearing two weeks now, awaiting a reply from Jackson Center. I am at heart an optimist, but I'm beginning to get a bad feeling...

[glenamoy]

Originally Posted by glenamoy

My trailer has been in the shop for nearing two weeks now, awaiting a reply from Jackson Center. I am at heart an optimist, but I'm beginning to get a bad feeling...

My local dealer just told me that they are the reason for the delay, not Jackson Center....the Center wants photos and more data on the problem. The local has been a bit slow in providing them. Maybe I'll know something this week...

All these bumper leak discussions are a bit scary and off-putting. I was reminded, in speaking with my own dealer, that the only sure leak we know of at this time on my floor rot issue is the pano window, as shown in my earlier post. The effect is the same...serious floor rot under the dinette. The dealer and the center are talking at least; they'll get to the bottom of it, window or bumper, I hope.

[altamont]

I called my dealer today and I am taking our unit in on the 17th of August. He has had one other unit with what we are all experiencing. With that one, they had to drop the pan to drain the water, replace the insulation, sand the subfloor and replace the vinyl floor. Cost was about $4500.

He said that your comprehensive insurance might cover it IF IT WAS NOT A MAINTAINENCE ISSUE! Slow leaks would be considered just that. I called JC and they said they are looking at each case and will look at the pictures from the dealer. He said that AS would help us if it is deemed a defect in manufacturing. I got the impression that we might get some assistance but (of course) nothing in writing at this time.

[glenamoy]

Originally Posted by altamont

I called my dealer today and I am taking our unit in on the 17th of August. He has had one other unit with what we are all experiencing. With that one, they had to drop the pan to drain the water, replace the insulation, sand the subfloor and replace the vinyl floor. Cost was about $4500.

He said that your comprehensive insurance might cover it IF IT WAS NOT A MAINTAINENCE ISSUE! Slow leaks would be considered just that. I called JC and they said they are looking at each case and will look at the pictures from the dealer. He said that AS would help us if it is deemed a defect in manufacturing. I got the impression that we might get some assistance but (of course) nothing in writing at this time.

I've been waiting to reply until I knew more about our situation. The local dealer in Katy estimated around 60 hours of work at $117 an hour to fix the flooring and the leaks (which are now fairly well determined to be from the mitre seals on the rear pano windows....the achilles heel of the rear of the trailer). Way too high a bid, probably because they are a fairly new and inexperienced A/S dealer/repairer. They shared data with the A/S factory folks, who thought it would take considerably less time (in the 20s of hours) to fix it, at a bit lower an hourly rate ($98/hr, I think). These bids were based on only fixing the floor under the dinette...a patch. A/S offered to meet us part way on the costs....but we had to bring it to Jackson Center, over 1000 miles away. Not an attractive alternative, given the great distance (40 hours of driving and wear and tear, plus three days in JC).

Based on a tip from an earlier post (thanks, Sivertwinkie) I called up Bob Jones RV Repair Service, also in the Houston area. These guys have been in the business since 1966, and do quite a bit of A/S repairs and restorations amongst the box trailers. They are putting together a bid, and talking with A/S about possibilities for support. They look to be a great shop; very knowledgeable and friendly.

I took my trailer to that RV place last week, after my trailer had sat in the local dealer lot for nearly three weeks of rainy weather--something my trailer is unaccustomed to, since we have it in a barn, usually. All four mitre joints in the two rear pano windows were weeping water...just plain water-saturated and open. Small streams of water on the inside. It wouldn't take long for a trailer like mine, parked in the rain, to decompose.

By thw way, my trailer insurance, through State Farm, will not cover this sort of damage, as it is considered maintenance---just as the above poster indicated. The policy covers accidents, floods, fires and the like, but not leaks.

My learning on all of this is that the rear end is simply under-engineered for the wear of travel...stresses on the mitre joints must be exceptionally high, and they leak like sieves. It is not a surprise that 2010's have welds on these mitres. Whether those welds will keep from cracking open and hence seal any better than the sealants they tried on the '07s remains to be seen. Trust no seal on your unit, no matter how new or fresh, especially in the rear.

As a community, we should press the A/S corporation to either re-engineer their rear ends (the trailers, I mean!) or extend longer warranties (two years is simply a joke), or both. They should back up their 2x and better premium prices by standing behind their product---especially given the number of late model trailers that fall victim to this rot. And at a bare minium the users manuals should heavily emphasize the very real possibilities of various leaks and what those leaks can do, in terms of heavy interior damage in very short order. My manual is in the trailer, so I cannot reference it now, but I do not recall any particularly dire warnings. Maybe someone with a recent manual can enlighten us on that.

Great forum....really useful! Many thanks to all who helped.

[Sparkygus]

We just brought our Airstream in to C&G after discovering the rotten floor at the beginning of our three week vacation (see earlier posts).

They took off the trim piece in the rear only to discover what many of you have, that there is absolutely zero sealant in place (see photos). So now we will go to battle with Airstream.

Like a previous poster mentioned, this is starting to sound like the Harley Davidson case. Take into account our two friends who previously wanted to buy Airstreams, and the people we met along the way while camping who came to look at ours and to ask what our experience has been -- all of them now waiting, like we are, to see how Airstream will handle this problem. Lucky for them, they haven't purchased yet, while we are all stuck with this and with a "high-end" company staying things like, tow your Airstream thousands of miles and we'll halve the cost with you??????? This is absurd. Little by little word will get out if Airstream doesn't take responsibility for this, and people will stop buying.

I'll let you know how my "discussion" with Airstream goes.

[h70man]

ALCON
My name is Larry Madden, I just spent a three day weekend pulling my 2008 25ft FB Safari 840 miles for Fort Smith Arkansas to the factory at Jackon Center Ohio. My issue is much the same as Tennis Man. The leak is in the the same area, only much worse. The distruction of the wood flooring lead me to belive the camper has been leaking way before I bought it new. It has been under cover from the day I got it home. The only water it has been exposed too was when I washed it! and a little shower when I was camping. I could have fixed it myself but was not sure about the source of the leak. It is still under warranty, and everybody at AS has been very kind and helpful. But like an old aunt of mine use to say the proof is in he pudding! I love the camper I hope it all works out. Shout out to my new friend Sharon Full timer!!!

[legandwillyg]

We just dropped ours off at the dealer this past weekend. Not much of a reply from the service rep, no comments about seeing this before. This is only the second trip for service work in 14 months of ownership. After the first month the service dept did me a FAVOR and repaired 3 "maintenance" water leaks. So I purchased some caulk to stay on top of the visible leaks myself which I think I have done a good job of. Needless to say, I am not very optimistic about the news that awaits me. I did look at the new units on the lot with welded corners around the window frames so someone is aware that there might be an issue? Will keep you posted.

[NJtoNC]

ok, i know NO ONE wants to go down this route... but in some cases, its the only thing companies respond to - have you guys considered a lawsuit here?
this seems obvious to even the layperson that this is a defective product.

[clancy_boy]

Originally Posted by NJtoNC

ok, i know NO ONE wants to go down this route... but in some cases, its the only thing companies respond to - have you guys considered a lawsuit here?
this seems obvious to even the layperson that this is a defective product.

OK, I am only going to say this out of personal knowledge on the subject. Let me warn you, it's not what you want to hear after you find this kind of damage but it is what you will hear when you bring your new trailer in for floor rot repairs.

"If you had properly maintained your trailer then this would not of happened!" "We have never seen anything like this before!" "Wow, this has been going on for a while, you should of cought this earlier!"

Individuals like h70man who have the "fortune" to have the leak become noticable before the warrenty ends will get the golden carpet service - the rest of you will get "consideration" for some of your trouble.

Good luck to all of you, I have a very personal experience with this subject.

[NJtoNC]

If you had properly maintained your trailer then this would not of happened!"

what kind of maintenance would prevent rain from coming in at the bumper? by 'maintenance' do they mean removing the rubrail and caulking the trailer / frame connection yourself? and is there any kind of written maintenance guide from AS?

an expert witness (An rv repair co unaffiliated with AS) can testify that this kind of leakage should not be happening in an almost brand new trailer - not ONE , and certainly not 7.

Any major company's goal is to make $$. of course they will try to blame it on the customer - anything to deflect responsibility. in this age of 'throw away' products, society accepts that products that are broken don't get fixed, they get replaced. We must not accept this.

Hold AS responsible for it's product!

look at toyota as a prime example. how many times did they say it was due to 'user error' that their cars accelerated - NOT TRUE. manufacturer defect. even when its out of warranty, defective products must be repaired at their expense.

even the threat of a lawsuit - hire a lawyer to write them a letter - should help them do the right thing...

[glenamoy]

The information from these last posts, especially of the 08 and 09 trailers with leaks and the resulting trademark floor rot, is disturbing and simply appalling. Shameful. And realize that we are seeing perhaps just the tip of the iceberg on this forum.

Perhaps Waterstream is a more appropriate corporate name??

Never again. I would think that Airstream Life magazine would be a good place to cover this problem....or are they just a byproduct of the corporation? Are there any objective RV magazines that might wish to cover the story? I for one would have wished to have known about this problem before spending all that money on one of these trailers.

[Hiwheel Joe]

Wasn't there some remarks a while back from the NEW Prez of AS a while back about how he was going to keep up with this forum and build a dialogue with his consumers about quality and such?? Makes you wonder if he has a clue. Haven't seen anything from him in a while?? I have an 84 and having seen these problems with the new ones... wouldn't have one.

[dkottum]

Searching rotten floors in Airstreams, the problem is certainly not limited to the new ones. These things have leaked forever, and leaks are found not only in Airstreams.

Our 1984 fiberglass Scamp has a fiberglass body and a plywood floor. No floor rot. One reason why is because the edges of the shell extend over the wood floor, rather than sitting on it. Simple design. Airstream could also extend the outer layer of the shell over the floor in a similar manner.

Then there are all the openings in the shell. A homebuilder would be required to install a flashing system at every opening so that if sealant failed, the water would still be directed outside the envelope. Another simple and sensible design element.

Wind driven rain. This is where water can indeed flow uphill. If the trailer is parked outside, it may be useful to utilize some sort of windbreak, a building or tree line, if it cannot be covered. When traveling, it may be a good habit to take a break from driving during heavy rain.

Can rigid tow connections or heavy tow vehicles contribute to structural problems and leakage. Lots of argument here. For our part, we'll go with the gentler setup.

Clearly there are design problems in new and old trailers that are causing leaks. One has to wonder if replacing the rotten floor without addressing the design errors will be enough, or will the new floor also rot.

Wishing Airstream would step up and take responsibility, get behind the problems we have, and get their engineers to design these leaks out of the new models. But I doubt it will happen. Our best resource for information may be this forum, experience and fixes by actual users.

Doug