Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) of 23' Safari SE LS

[OrangeKid]

We are very inerested in ordering a 23' Safari SE LS. The layout is perfect for us. We are a retired couple and plan to to a lot of dry camping around the country.

After studying the specfications we are very concerned that the model we want will have inadequate cargo carrying capacity (CCC).

Here are the stats from dealer order sheet:

23' Safari 2007 4461 LBS

Audio Upgrade Package: 25 LBS
L-Lounge in lieu of sofa: 1 lbs
Safari LS upgrade package: 118 LBS
Satellite radio use w/audio upgrade: 7 lbs
Solar Charging System: 12 lbs
Second solar panel: ~10 lbs
Special Edition Upgrade 23' Safari; 96 LBS
Upper bunk use with Special edition: 21 lbs

GVWR of 23' Safari: 5600 lbs
(Base dry weight of 23' Safari: 4461 lbs + weight of options: 290 lbs = UVW)
Minus UVW of 23' Safari with options: 4751 lbs
Minus Fresh water 36 gal at 8.3 lb/gal: 300
Minus Propane 10 Gal at 4.2 lbs/gal: 40 lbs

CCC = 509 lbs

We feel that a cargo carrying capacity of only 509 lbs is inadequate for a trailer of this size. Even though the axles are rated to cary 6000 lbs the GVWR is only 5600 lbs. The stats on line in in the brochure show a GVWR of 6000 lbs, however the sticker on the trailer shows the 5600 lb figure.

Can anyone explain the difference from the 6000 lb rating of the axles and the 5600 lb GVWR. The dealer claims that the sticker on the trailer is incorrect and should read 6000 lbs for GVWR. However I checked two other Safari SE LS on line and both had a GVWR of 5600 lbs. I asked if heavier duty axles could be installed at the factory and was told it was tried in the past and it caused vibration in the trailer and is not allowed any more.

We really would like to order this Safari but we need to be able to carry more weight. Does any one have any suggestions how to proceed. A 25' Safari has a CCC of ~ 1400 lbs but the tongue weight and GVWR exceeds the limits of our tow vehicle, a 2006 Sequoia 4X4 V8.

Steve

[TomW]

Originally Posted by OrangeKid

... Even though the axles are rated to cary 6000 lbs the GVWR is only 5600 lbs. The stats on line in in the brochure show a GVWR of 6000 lbs, however the sticker on the trailer shows the 5600 lb figure.

Can anyone explain the difference from the 6000 lb rating of the axles and the 5600 lb GVWR. The dealer claims that the sticker on the trailer is incorrect and should read 6000 lbs for GVWR...

I will side with your dealer in that the sticker is wrong.

Having researched this issue in the past, I am comfortable in stating that the GVWR for a given towed load is a combination of the axle's load carrying capability, and the load towing capability of the tow vehicle. In other words, if your axles are rated to carry 6000 pounds, and your tow vehicle & hitch are rated to tow the same, then the GVWR of your Airstream is 6000 pounds.

Tom

[Antique Pedaler]

Anything I see obout ours, the GVWR is 6,000 lbs.

[TomW]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that my Overlander's owner's manual stated that I had 2700 pound [each] axles whereas the welded-on axle tags each stated 2800 pounds.

You might be trying to dig out from a production year change.

Tom

[OrangeKid]

TomW the sticker may be wrong. I hope that is true, but the online stats I just checked on the Airstream site show a GVWR of 5600 LBS. See http://www.airstream.com/product_lin...fari_spec.html.

However the on the model I saw the axles were clearly rated at 6000 LBS. But the sticker is the legal statement of the tailers weight carrying capacity, I believe. Please see attached photo of sticker.

Antique Pedaler is the the 6000 GVWR on the sticker pasted inside your trailer?

Attached is the sticker from the 2007 23' Safari SE LS I saw at my local dealer. It clearly states a GVWR of 5600 lbs.

Steve

[TomW]

The ultimate, bottom line is that a trailer's GVWR, by what I have read is by DEFINITION, based on the axle's load carrying capability, and the corresponding tow vehicle's ability to move the mass.

Assuming an adequate tow vehicle, it does not matter what ANY stickers say EXCEPT for the permanent tags affixed to the axles.

Tom (aka another voice on the Internet)

[Antique Pedaler]

The trailer is in a shed several miles from here, so I can't double check. I just recall the GVWR when I bought it. The brochure specs I have as well as the AS web specs do list it as 5600. But then they list the 22 also as 5600. Both sources are suspect because the rest of the weight related specs are listed as "TBD". If you're still concerned, call AS customer service.

[OrangeKid]

Originally Posted by TomW

The ultimate, bottom line is that a trailer's GVWR, by what I have read is by DEFINITION, based on the axle's load carrying capability, and the corresponding tow vehicle's ability to move the mass.

Assuming an adequate tow vehicle, it does not matter what ANY stickers say EXCEPT for the permanent tags affixed to the axles.

Tom (aka another voice on the Internet)

TomW:

What you say makes perfect sense. The Safari I saw had a pair of axles rated at 6000 LBS and my tow vehicle will tow it so I should be good to go. A GVWR of 6000 lbs will give us enough cargo carrying capacity for our needs of over 900 LBS with the fresh water tank full. But I wish the "legal" label reflected this fact. I would not want to face some legal liability because we "overloaded" our Safari.

Steve

[OrangeKid]

Originally Posted by Antique Pedaler

The trailer is in a shed several miles from here, so I can't double check. I just recall the GVWR when I bought it. The brochure specs I have as well as the AS web specs do list it as 5600. But then they list the 22 also as 5600. Both sources are suspect because the rest of the weight related specs are listed as "TBD". If you're still concerned, call AS customer service.

Antique Pedaler:

Calling AS customer service is a good idea. I will try to reach them tomorrow. Offhand do you know their number?

Steve

[Antique Pedaler]

Yup. Call 877/596-6111
Extension 7411

[TomW]

Originally Posted by Antique Pedaler

..If you're still concerned, call AS customer service.

I have just left Antique Pedaler POSITIVE karma with the comment, "I disagree, but it sounds good in a perfect world."

Airstream's customer service, in my opinion, does not know what axles you have. I feel the ultimate resolution to this load carrying issue is to nail down exactly what constitues the GVWR of a trailer.

I would welcome hearing a definition different from the one I am comfortable with.

Tom

[OrangeKid]

Originally Posted by Antique Pedaler

Yup. Call 877/596-6111
Extension 7411

Thanks!

[OrangeKid]

Originally Posted by TomW

I have just left Antique Pedaler POSITIVE karma with the comment, "I disagree, but it sounds good in a perfect world."

Airstream's customer service, in my opinion, does not know what axles you have. I feel the ultimate resolution to this load carrying issue is to nail down exactly what constitues the GVWR of a trailer.

I would welcome hearing a definition different from the one I am comfortable with.

Tom

I am going to try customer service and see how they respond. Although customer service may not know what axles are on a particular trailer, the sticker created during the manufacturing process should reflect the actual equipment installed on the trailerand should accurately portray the GVWR of the trailer.

[Pahaska]

The ultimate, bottom line is that a trailer's GVWR, by what I have read is by DEFINITION, based on the axle's load carrying capability, and the corresponding tow vehicle's ability to move the mass.

Not so. The GVWR is whatever the manufacturer rates the trailer. In many cases, the GVWR is actually higher than the axle rating (as it was in my 2003 22 International) since the tongue carries some of the weight of the trailer. In this case, the GVWR is lower, so I would look for a reason other than axle rating. I think that the reason in this case is frame streanth, and here's why.

The 23 is physically the same trailer as the 22' models, but with a different interior layout. The 22'/23' frame is not terribly stout; my 2003 had a recall in which they welded frame reinforcements right behind the axle because the frame was cracking at that point because of the weight of the rear bath and tank. At the time, I noted that the frame ws not terribly deep, nor was it of very thick material. I have a strong feeling that Airstream is stretching things to the limit to get to the 5600# rating.

[TomW]

Those are my words in John's quote above.

I will bow to Pahaska's much more extensive experience as he has been both trailering & dealing with life longer than me.

As a parting shot, though, I will express disappointment that Airstream's representatives have not already offered up what is probably the correct answer.

Tom

[RoadKingMoe]

Airstream used to make a 23' Safari (actually 23' 11" and 8-1/2' wide) weighing 4700 pounds with a 6300 pound GVWR and 500 pound unloaded tongue weight. It had 39 gallons of freshwater capacity, 39 gallons for grey water, and 18 gallons for black water. While the picture show a couch, it was also available with a dinette instead. Last year was 2002.

[TIMEMACHINE]

Here is the tag from a 2006 Safari 23'. Is it possible the 2007 model has a lower GVWR?

John

[OrangeKid]

Originally Posted by Pahaska

Not so. The GVWR is whatever the manufacturer rates the trailer. In many cases, the GVWR is actually higher than the axle rating (as it was in my 2003 22 International) since the tongue carries some of the weight of the trailer. In this case, the GVWR is lower, so I would look for a reason other than axle rating. I think that the reason in this case is frame streanth, and here's why.

The 23 is physically the same trailer as the 22' models, but with a different interior layout. The 22'/23' frame is not terribly stout; my 2003 had a recall in which they welded frame reinforcements right behind the axle because the frame was cracking at that point because of the weight of the rear bath and tank. At the time, I noted that the frame ws not terribly deep, nor was it of very thick material. I have a strong feeling that Airstream is stretching things to the limit to get to the 5600# rating.

From my point of view this is bad news.

[OrangeKid]

Originally Posted by RoadKingMoe

Airstream used to make a 23' Safari (actually 23' 11" and 8-1/2' wide) weighing 4700 pounds with a 6300 pound GVWR and 500 pound unloaded tongue weight. It had 39 gallons of freshwater capacity, 39 gallons for grey water, and 18 gallons for black water. While the picture show a couch, it was also available with a dinette instead. Last year was 2002.

A 6300 lb GVWR would be perfect for our needs.

[OrangeKid]

Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE

Here is the tag from a 2006 Safari 23'. Is it possible the 2007 model has a lower GVWR?

John

Well here is a larger image of the label I posted earlier. As you can see it is a 2007 23" Safari with a 5600 lb GVWR.