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Old 11-12-2009, 06:24 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inland rv center in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
You can do ‘jump tests’ on the bumper, or make wildly over-simplified generalizations all day long- until you start basing your argument in fact, I’m going with what I know-
The only facts right now are manufacturer specifications on rated loads, tow capacity, cargo, etc… for vehicles AND hitches.

Despite what some here say: there are no recommendations by Airstream on vehicle ride quality (I’d love to see some A/S documentation on that to prove otherwise). From what I know, there appears to be very little difference anyhow, in forces acting at the coupler, between a “soft sprung” and “hard sprung” tow vehicle.

Vehicle manufacturers do have weight ratings for their tow vehicles.

There are "NO" facts on hitches, but there are manufacturers assumptions. Not a single hitch manufacturer has run any tests with Airstream products.

Service records disagree that there is no difference between a hard and soft sprung tow vehicle, having an effect on the coupler-A-frame.

Records clearly show far more damage to the trailers, when towed with "heavy duty" vehicles, than with light duty.

Andy

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Old 11-12-2009, 06:25 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by dwightdi
On rough roads a tighter sprung tow vehicle (heavy duty) will have harsher ride and transmit more motion and forces to the hitch ball and trailer. The W/D bars do the same but do it through the torque they exert on the trailer A frame. This leads to higher forces imposed on the trailer than if the soft sprung trailer were traveling down the road by itself. (I am a retired mechanical engineer and I know my free body force diagrams.) All that being said, a heavy duty truck with stiff suspension will do more damage to the trailer than a softer sprung truck or car and the too stiff W/D bars make matters worse. At what speed and roughness of the road, do we consider we are overly "abusing" the trailer and what should be covered under the warrantee is open to question. We just got through viewing the Capetown to Cairo Caravan at last weekend's rally. What I saw was product abuse and abuse of the humans used to pull the trailers out of the mud. Not all trailers, trucks or people completed the full journey.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:28 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalcutjoe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
There are "NO" facts on hitches, but there are manufacturers assumptions. Not a single hitch manufacturer has run any tests with Airstream products.

Service records disagree that there is no difference between a hard and soft sprung tow vehicle, having an effect on the coupler-A-frame.

Records clearly show far more damage to the trailers, when towed with "heavy duty" vehicles, than with light duty.

Andy

A hitches tow capacity/weight distribution bars are rated for specific trailer weight and tongue weight. Equal-I-zer, REESE, Hensley, ProPride all publish this. e.g. if you have an 800lb tongue weight on a 9,000lb trailer, every hitch manufacturer will recommend bars/hitch of 1,000/10,000. Fact. You know this.

Saying they haven't tested their particular hitch setup with an Airstream trailer is like saying GOODYEAR didn't test the load rating of its 'Marathon' on an Airstream, so it's not legitimate...

I'm assuming in addition to parts, you provide repair service on Airstream's as well?
How about providing some data on service records?
Do you repair SOB's as well? Is there an appreciable difference between the A/S numbers, and others?
What are the qualifications for a 'light duty' vehicle vs. 'heavy duty'?
Is a GMT400 2500 truck as 'heavy-duty' as a GMT800 2500? How about the A/S model- lots and lots of variation there, as I'm sure u know...

As I said, more generalizations- no quantification.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:30 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalcutjoe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by dwightdi
All that being said, a heavy duty truck with stiff suspension will do more damage to the trailer than a softer sprung truck or car and the too stiff W/D bars make matters worse.

R u sure? How do you know this? What type of forces are we talking about?

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Old 11-12-2009, 06:32 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inland rv center, in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
R u sure? How do you know this? What type of forces are we talking about?
G forces Basic Physics.

Andy

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Old 11-12-2009, 06:38 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inland rv center, in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
A hitches tow capacity/weight distribution bars are rated for specific trailer weight and tongue weight. Equal-I-zer, REESE, Hensley, ProPride all publish this. e.g. if you have an 800lb tongue weight on a 9,000lb trailer, every hitch manufacturer will recommend bars/hitch of 1,000/10,000. Fact. You know this.
You MUST also consider the tow vehicle. Obviously a 1/2 ton trock is not the same as a Peterbilt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
Saying they haven't tested their particular hitch setup with an Airstream trailer is like saying GOODYEAR didn't test the load rating of its 'Marathon' on an Airstream, so it's not legitimate...
You said that, not me. Airstream must have a soft ride. They did not test their torsion arm ratings for that requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
I'm assuming in addition to parts, you provide repair service on Airstream's as well?
Correct, and I have for over 30 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
How about providing some data on service records?
That is private information that no one is entitled to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
Do you repair SOB's as well? Is there an appreciable difference between the A/S numbers, and others?
There is a huge difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
What are the qualifications for a 'light duty' vehicle vs. 'heavy duty'?
Is a GMT400 2500 truck as 'heavy-duty' as a GMT800 2500? How about the A/S model- lots and lots of variation there, as I'm sure u know...
My expertise is not in tow vehicles. But, it is in "what can and does cause damage to Airstream trailers".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
As I said, more generalizations- no quantification.
Read post # 157 above.
Facts about the damages, always confirms and out weighs generalizations and non-experienced opinions. I see it in our shop, all too frequently. That is not an opinion, that "IS" fact.

Andy
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:40 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by finalcutjoe

30 years of service, with the records to back up your ‘overhitching’ and ‘overtrucking’ claims- there’s obviously a conspiracy on Airstream’s part to keep your findings out of the Airstream Owners Manual.

Your “airstreams must have a soft ride” statement of fact must be in your ‘super-secret’ repair records, as well. Anytime you want to produce Airstream documentation on that, would be very welcome. BTW- what sort of 'test' on torsion axles r u refering to? What were the parameters? Findings?

AFA post #157- The data from that caravan was recorded, analyzed, then integrated into the Owner Manuals for those years? An ‘addendum’ maybe on ‘overhitching’ or ‘overtrucking’? Anything about ‘soft ride’ in those vintage model OM’s?

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree- I’ll start with my Airstream OM, then go with published manufacturer specifications on vehicle tow ratings, and hitch weight ratings… and you go with, well… your classified service records/recommended ride quality “facts”.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:42 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by inland rv center, in

This last part of this thread has drifted far away from it's beginning, and I choose not to argue with an opinion.

Andy
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:43 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by robert cross

OK, so this is a big no no....so what?

Got an 06 3/4 Burb awhile back, all this harsh suspension talk had me worried.

After using all the expertise here during set-up, I was still concerned about the "stiff" ride. Two short trips eased my mind. One on a section of rough country road and the other on the NYS Thruway, both INSIDE the Stream.
If my trailer suffers any ill effect from what I felt during that ride it shouldn't be called a travel trailer.

Jump on it, what Andy suggests is a very scientific method, I get about three inches with my 180lbs. Tink about it, I have at least 750lbs hanging on the receiver, If it don't move sump'n rong.

POI...how many actually KNOW their tongue weight, after getting a proper scale this season I was quite surprised to find out that Cloudsplitter had a ready for "dock'n" TW of 1100# (hensley).

Yes, I do use 1000# bars, and have been able to transfer the weight needed with no adverse effects on ride quality.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:45 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by hampstead38

Here's what I've learned from Andy... or what I think I've learned. One, the Airstream has a forgiving suspension/axle setup. Two, this doesn't help you much if the Airstream is hitched to a tow vehicle with a very stiff suspension, e.g., 1-ton truck AND the WD hitch is using very inflexible bars. This seems to be supported by Tom's field test on a Reese Dual Cam.

Now, there are any number of variables. For example, there's a difference between the ride of an unloaded 1-ton truck and the ride of a 1-ton truck with a 1,500 utility body full of another 1,000 pounds of tools and equipment. Overall, however, I think the weight of evidence supports Andy's position.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:48 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by jaxon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree- I’ll start with my Airstream OM, then go with published manufacturer specifications on vehicle tow ratings, and hitch weight ratings… and you go with, well… your classified service records/recommended ride quality “facts”.
Whoa... Andy has been a real resource on the forums for quite some time and I believe that his 30+years experience speaks for itself... sometimes it's best just to listen and then see where it fits. I always find it humorous when experience is minimized by those who don't have it...

I'd put Andys experience and insights above what I've read (and haven't read), in the Airstream owners manuals... that's in all 3 of the ones we've owned.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:50 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by inland rv center, in

Thanks for the support.

But I started with the Airstream program in June of 1966, in San Antion, Texas.

I guess that makes it about 43 plus years.

The 30 years is owning my shop.

The greatest part, was when I was with Caravanner Insurance Company, the insurance division of Airstream back then. I investigated over 1000 loss of control accidents, and proved what caused over 85 percent of them, which could have been avoidable.

Airstream agreed, the proof was in the pudding.

There are way too many variables in "what to use to properly tow" for the factory to get involved. If they said tow vehicles, a, b. and c, someone in less than aheartbeat, would challenge that and say, but how about d, e, or f.

Sort of like what's the best fishing tackle. Depends on what you want to fish for.

Andy

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Old 11-12-2009, 06:51 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by tpi

I pull my 25' with F250 PSD 2WD using 1000 pound bars. In addition to tongue load, I carry weight (300-500 lbs) in the back of the pickup. To me, even with the 1000 lb bars, and new Bilstein shocks the truck rear suspension will lose control on whoop-de-do type bumps. In general, the driving experience does not feel over hitched to me. At the present, the trailer has shown no deterioration from vibration, flex, etc.

I listen to experience and thoroughly believe softening the ride and minimizing vibrations will extend the life of the trailer. I use D rated tires at less than max. pressure, drive slowly, and avoid the worst roads if possible.

I'm basically doing the best I can to combine and compromise with the conventional wisdom available to me.

As far as I'm concerned, Airstream could do a much better job by updating the owners manual. Andy could you exchange your info with Airstream and see if better written guidelines can be produced? It would certainly help settle a lot of questions here.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:53 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
OK. Where’s the "soft ride" qualifier from Airstream??
I’ve learned not to confuse a jack-of-all-trades with ‘expert’, Jaxon… in other words, just cause DW’s got the best pedals, doesn’t make the sales rep an expert on cymbals.

Andy's right about one thing... I have HJ'd this thread, to some degree... so I’ll clarify:

OP says damage to 2007 A/S should be covered under expired 2 year warranty. Says A/S customer service is crap.

I disagree.

I say, there’s more to this damage than what has been shared by OP- and that’s why A/S is stonewalling.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:55 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inland rv center, in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by tpi
As far as I'm concerned, Airstream could do a much better job by updating the owners manual. Andy could you exchange your info with Airstream and see if better written guidelines can be produced? It would certainly help settle a lot of questions here.
I agree with you.

But I can assure you, that Airstream gets into enough discussions, without offering guide lines to hitching and tow vehicles.

Airstream uses "torsion axles". Why? Because they offer a softer ride for the trailer.

But that is even questioned, by some.

Towing an Airstream with bad axles, punishes the trailer. Why? Harsh ride.

Same is true with excessive rated hitches and tow vehicles.

Andy

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Old 11-12-2009, 07:04 PM   #176
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this STING of continuous UNINTERRUPTED posts quoted above...

came over a 6 hour period (6:46am-12:46pm) CST....

and were followed by THIS brilliant post....

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2air'

the factory service center has shop records too.

as do MANY other dealer/service centers.

i have YET 2 see ANY of them support the softrideoverhitched rantings.

so the conspiracy must be BIG, REALLY BIG!
____________

"super heavy duty" means nothing, and SOFT RIDE means nothing.

and tire, spring, truck frame, roadways have CHANGED significantly in the past 40 years.

while a/s trailers have DOUBLED in weight and become WIDER in that time frame.

anyone who has RIDEN in a 70s 1 ton truck and a NEW 1 ton knows CLEARLY the rides are different NOW....

and 1/2 ton MEANS NOTHING as term to define RIDE or even payload NOW...
_____________

fc' is TRYING to take this dialog beyond ANY one person's beliefs...

into the realm of ACTUAL DATA and FACTS collected with MODERN techniques.

this a good example of his efforts...

>>>>>http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...tch-53341.html<<<<<

are any of the long toothed experts doing this?

no.

are many of the posters even TRYING to understand the data collected by him and hiho' ???
____________

MOST of us who actually OWN and TOW and USE these trailers are TRYING to tow SAFELY.

we are also trying to make the BEST decisions about HOW and WHAT to tow with, based on USEFUL PUBLIC information...

i have NO USE for 'secret facts' or private service records UNLESS that info gets PUBLIC scrutiny.

and THAT NOTION applies to ALL PRODUCTS and SERVICES, not just a/s related crap.

so as owners we putter along LOOKING for data and trying to sort facts from NONsense...

and ALL with VERY LITTLE guidance from the mothership...
_____________

HOWEVER the PREZ SAYZ this on tires/ride in his recent address here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Airstream Marketing

...Tires
Some people asked about upgrading their tires to those with greater load capacity, and the potential effect on ride...

The “ride” of the trailer is dictated less by the tire than by the rubber torsion axle, so changing tire capacities (and pressures) should have little impact on ride...


Bob Wheeler President Airstream Inc.

now CLEARLY the factory could do some of the SAME testing fc' has started and hiho' has done...

IF bob and the boys in j/c are WORRIED about frame bending, body separation, SHELL cracking and other STRUCTURAL problems...

it seems they would be ON TOP of this issue.
_____________

there is a tendency in threads like this one and others on frame, body, shell, axle or STRUCTURE related issues,

for a couple of seasoned members to TURN the thread into a debate about themselves, their history and so called expertise...

when the ISSUE IS THE TRAILERS.

these HOT TOPICS could be better addressed IF we focus on the PRODUCT and the PROBLEMS...

instead of ne1 member.

cheers
2air'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by finalcutjoe
...I say, there’s more to this damage than what has been shared by OP- and that’s why A/S is stonewalling...
this may/NOT be true. we'll never know.

i personally DOUBT that the o.p. is hiding anything and accusing them without evidence is a silly distraction.

the WARRANTY is UP on the O.P. unit so the factory isn't stonewalling.

they are JUST sticking to the warranty terms, WITHOUT considering the long term results of NOT doing the right thing.

UNfortunately for the o.p.

and MANY of us think the 2 years of FRAME/SHELL and structural elements is TOO LITTLE coverage for a product that CLAIMS to last longer in USE than other traylas...

cheers
2air'
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and a SHORT WHILE later the forums went BLANK...

erasing another 5-6 NASTY posts, that were DESTINED for DELETION.

i wonder WHO dunne it???



you are NOW returned to the current time and operation...

but play nicely, cuze the server can CRASH ne time...
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:52 PM   #177
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Good grief Charlie Brown

Thanks 2air for bringing us back to reality...... I thought for a minute we were all going to have to run outside and adjust our load bars
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Old 11-13-2009, 07:33 AM   #178
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All,

I appreciate your input and insight into this issue. I will be doing some scientific type tests once I get the trailer back. I am taking care of the repair without Airstreams assistance. I still cannot believe there is no technical data from the "mothership" on this isuue so we as the end user can be informed well enough about how to care for our investment in their company.

My steps will be as follows:

1. fill the propane and load the trailer as it for most of our trips

2. take the trailer to the CAT scales, disconnect it and weigh it again.

3. weigh the tongue separately

4. get one of my engineers to bring out his equipment and measure the forces without the bars and with the bars. This will hopefully determine if the bars are too stiffly loaded for the tongue weight.
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Old 11-13-2009, 07:39 AM   #179
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From what I have read over and over again it appears that the point Andy and others are trying to make is that the bars not only transfer weight to the steering axle, but also act as a "suspension" for/at the ball.
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Old 11-14-2009, 08:16 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Krazyjohnny View Post
From what I have read over and over again it appears that the point Andy and others are trying to make is that the bars not only transfer weight to the steering axle, but also act as a "suspension" for/at the ball.
These were my thoughts yesterday as I watched a driver of poor skill and non-risk averse behavior pull a late model SAFARI (25'?) at about 65+ mph eastbound from Houston on Interstate 10. As this was my first chance to observe -- from behind -- the behavior of an A/S new enough to assume good axles/shocks/tires, I was dismayed to see the amount of trailer "bounce", by which I do not mean suspension action alone. I have watched dozens if not a hundred or more other trailer types in the past few years (plenty of "winter" Texans in transit) so I lit the fire on the Cummins to pass him on the port side -- three lane roadway -- and moved back over to lane 3 after a survey of TT/TV and hitch rigging. An F250 Ford shortbed, with no WDH or anti-sway.

The trailer tracked well (discrepancies between trailer and truck during his almost-abrupt lane changing// also no body lean or roll), but this new roadway wasn't a great contributor to the amount of trailer bounce (up & down motion; evenly front and rear; simultaneous). As if a child were pounding a fry pan on the ground by the handle, repeatedly, constantly.

Not many miles further I saw him off the frontage road in the dirt next to a rural overpass cupping his chin as he executed a walk-around.
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