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Old 10-28-2009, 08:29 AM   #81
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Okay, I've stayed out of this mud-slinging match as long as I could...


Many newer-model Airstream travel trailers with the squared-off front access compartment are suffering these cracks. The cracks have appeared on Airstreams being towed with anything from a Nissan Armada to an F350 dually, and with all types of WD gear, from an Equal-I-Zer to a Hensley to a Reese Strait-Line.

My opinion is the problem is the squared-off compartment, coupled with a lack of the locating plate normally placed in that area are the most likely culprits. Since there is no plate there to help hold the front of the trailer steady, it will tend to move around and flex. The flexing will cause problems in the weakest part of the trailer, namely the squared-off compartment in the front, which is the reason there is no plate there.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:56 AM   #82
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Terry, thanks for jumping in and helping identify the problem as it applies to this area. Is there a solution, or at least a way to minimize damage here as well as other weakness in Airstream structure (without parking the trailer)?
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:01 AM   #83
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Trunions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
What brand hitch do you have? If it's a Reese, all the trunions are the same size that go into the ball mount. The different in size is the square hole for the bars.

Airstream switched to Goodyear Marathons, many years ago, and still use them today. Make sure you get the running gear balanced. If you can only get the tire and wheel balanced, there are other options available to complete the balancing setup.

Andy
I have a Reese Dual Cam. I took pictures to try and show the difference between the heads of the #600 bars.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:36 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63 View Post
Many newer-model Airstream travel trailers with the squared-off front access compartment are suffering these cracks. The cracks have appeared on Airstreams being towed with anything from a Nissan Armada to an F350 dually, and with all types of WD gear, from an Equal-I-Zer to a Hensley to a Reese Strait-Line.

My opinion is the problem is the squared-off compartment, coupled with a lack of the locating plate normally placed in that area are the most likely culprits. Since there is no plate there to help hold the front of the trailer steady, it will tend to move around and flex.
The photos linked to in Post #7 are of my trailer. If you read the associated posts in the Bunkhouse thread, you'll see that in our case, the cracks appeared on a Nissan Armada (a very softly sprung SUV) using a Hensley hitch. We used 1000# Draw-Tite torsion bars, which are appropriate for a trailer with 825# of tongue weight. The cracks appeared only after 34,000 miles of towing.

So in this case at least, "over-hitching" did NOT cause the cracks. However, I won't go as far as to say that overly-stiff hitches are not a problem. Since some Bunkhouse owners have seen the cracks as quickly as 5,000 miles, it is possible a stiff hitch might exacerbate the issue. I can only say that over-hitching was not a factor in OUR situation.

Given the preponderance of this symptom on this particular model of trailer, I agree a reinforcement is needed, and from my experience, solves the issue completely. We have logged another 35,000 miles since our front compartment door was repaired/reinforced, and the cracks have not gotten longer since. As a bonus, the front compartment door no longer leaks.

Note that the issue was corrected with less than $50 of parts and 4.5 hours of labor. It's a simple fix.

I agree that a round-cornered door would probably do better. I also think that a little factory-installed reinforcement behind the skin in this area would help stiffen it and prevent flex, so that this sort of problem would be less likely to occur.

But let's stay in perspective here. We have towed at least 70,000 miles (conservatively estimated) with our trailer, full-timed in it for three years, and continue to use it for 5-6 months each year. A pair of tiny 1" stress cracks is the only structural issue we've ever had with it. With proper preventative maintenance, I expect the trailer to last for decades.

And now, let's get back to the important stuff: Photos of aliens and midgets dancing on hitches.
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:49 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajendo View Post
I have a Reese Dual Cam. I took pictures to try and show the difference between the heads of the #600 bars.
That's a change in trunnions that I did not know about.

I will check it out tomorrow, when I am back at my office, and then get back with you with a more positive answer.

Andy
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:53 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by mandolindave View Post
#1 I don't feel that a solution, constitutes a high jacking.

#2 I am just a mandolin player, not an engineer. These
hitch equations have multiple variables, and I for one
appreciate simple tests to guide me.

#3 I welcome back the voice of experience ( Andy )

I tow a dry 3000 lbs Argosy,
with an older 1/2 ton van ( 5000 lbs tow capacity ),
using a Draw Tite hitch with 1000 lbs torsion bars.
Do I need lighter torsion bars and can I switch to
different bars for my Draw Tite hitch ?
Dave.

I think the 1000 pound bars are excessive.

Try some 600 pounders, and see the improvement.

Andy
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:31 PM   #87
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Look closely, you will see aliens...
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:45 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Krazyjohnny View Post
... I have an 07' model trailer with stress cracikng around the front compartment due to bad design and construction and Airstream says it is not there issue. My repair center has another trailer there same year and model with the same issue and Airstream has pretty much turned their nose up at the repair as if it is something that I did to the trailer...
good info rich n terry.

again the o.p. has an 07 and it's a 27 footer.

so this report isn't about old units and isn't about tiny units.

and it's not about ALTERING adequate/normal tow vehicles AWAY from a SAFE design that IS appropriate for 7-11,000 lb trailers.

the endcaps on newer/widebody units are simply NOT as rigid with lots of HOLEs cut into them

the "3 piece ribs" that replaced one piece ribbing may not be adequate.

the trailers are assembled using DOUBLE STICK TAPE and the shell is 5 PIECES now...

tacked together as individual segments then mounted ON the frames.
_____________________

the bunkhouse units don't have pano/wrap windows up front.

but FB models with the pano windows (like the OP) have a LOT of the sheet metal removed.

i do think the hold down plate or shell/frame reinforcement would help, BUT...

this may also just move the outlet for the weakness higher, for example to the window cut outs or endcap/shell rivet lines...

and tears/cracks are NOT the only issue or sign of front end failures.

LEAKING windows, splits in the sealant lines and BUCKLING along the roof top/end cap are also experienced...

and further signs of INADEQUATE frame/shell design at the front of the LONGER HEAVIER units.

and on rear bed models WITHOUT the square compartment opening up front...

the front skin/shell BUCKLES and separates from the frame at the lower belt line...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...ion-35237.html

on a random day in the terraport ~6 of 10 units parked for OTHER service issues...

had these front end problems that were undetected by the owners, but obvious once inspected.

i suspect ONE of the reasons for switching to REAR DOORS on almost every longer unit is too REDUCED the shell intrusions at the front.

and apparently THIS approach (rather than reinforcing the frame/shell) has NOT stopped the problems...
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on my trailer, SIMPLY DROPPING THE CUP onto the ball and raising the tongue jack,

causes the A frame/tongue to flex and the front skin to BULGE.

withOUT w/d or bars or ANY towing.

the A frame flexed SO MUCH and the skin BULGED so FAR out as to prevent the battery box door from opening.
_________________

as to the NUMBER of units that have this problem (whether the owner KNOWS or not YET), consider this....

a/s only produces ~100 or FEWER of the LARGE trailers annually.

and some models like the bunkhouse and long classics only have 100 or so units in the FULL PRODUCTION run.

so the REPORTED data for front end separation, cracks/tears, window frame gaps, battery door/box cracks and so on...

represents a ~.05 of the units, or ~5% and that is only the REPORTED units.

compare that to the frantic worry about marathons which HAD (by my calculations) ~<.0002 failures or <.01-.02%...

so clearly this shell/frame integrity issue is WAY more common.

it is NOT a random issue and is only somewhat rare because SO FEW TRAILERs are built.
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lastly, please refrain from using the term midget.

and stay tuned, for the vertically challenged alien rally and hitch jumping olympics...

2b held in texas with tinhut AND MRS tinhut as the host.

i think there will be a special division for G-string wearing hitch jumpers too...

cheers
2air'
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:35 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63 View Post
...The flexing will cause problems in the weakest part of the trailer, namely the squared-off compartment in the front, which is the reason there is no plate there.
my understanding is that the hold-down 'plate' hasn't been used on ANY MODEL for years...

check the shells pix inside the BS link above.

also note that can-am has been repairing these units for years too.

my unit does NOT have the squared front outside door (none of the rear bed models do) and does NOT have a hold down plate...

artstreams 80s unit did NOT have the hold down plate either, until his diy repair...

hiho's 90s 34 did NOT have the plate (until he recently reinforce it) nor does howiEs....

it's been more than 20 years since they stopped using this reinforcement on the front.

not only that but the front RIBS are cut, so even those don't extend UP the full end cap length in one piece.

the design/construction has changed significantly to LESS beef, while the tongue weights have gone UP 80%.

cheers
2air'
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:39 PM   #90
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Page B-1 OM, ref stiff ride.Notice:Be realistic when ordering heavy duty springs.Only springs heavy enough to support your loaded vehicle(not including trailer) are necessary.Too harsh of spring rate will only shorten the life of the tow vehicle and TRAILER, and will make your journeys less enjoyable.OM 2009 30 L C. Not for sure how this principle applies to WDH.woppa4
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:45 PM   #91
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let's deal with this silly notion 1moretime...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airstream01 View Post
,, is trying to say is that if you jump up and down on your hitch, it should move a little bit. If it is rock hard, it probably is too harsh for the airstream.
perhaps but that isn't exactly as it has been put many many times.

the "move" meter is supposed to get 2-3 inches.

i recall (also from the 60s/70s) that the typical advice for evaluating car suspension fatigue (on a country squire') was to...

"lean on a fender and bouncer her some. if it doesn't stop moving in 2 or 3 bounces it's time for new shocks"

i wonder which shock maker thunk that up?

regardless 'bouncing' was a gauge of SHOCK performance not springs.
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now let's think about this some as it applies to MODERN rigs...

shock and suspension technology has changed a tiny bit in 40 years.

the dampening by shocks is accomplished in different ways and there are MORE elements involved in vehicle suspension NOW.

antisway (roll) bars, bushing materials, autoleveling, air/pump bags, adjustable coil springs, independent supsensions, split axles and so on...

and while the typical truck still uses leafs at the rear they are LONGER, more supple and with variable stiffening characteristics.

on trucks the spring rate is individually specified based on the load carrying, payload, engine type, gvwr, gvcwr and so on...

the overhang is often MUCH LESS on these newer vehicles RELATIVE to the wheel base.

many of these tv weigh 6-8,000 lbs EMPTY.

now add 1000 lbs of gear and 700-1200 lbs of tongue mass.

so exactly how much EFFECT can an AVERAGE 70kg male (or 100kg person) bouncing (not JUMPING) have on this overall mass???

not much.
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ok now lets toss in the w/d contraption.

properly installed and ADJUSTED the goal of w/d is to RESTORE steering axle loads to the UNhitched values.

for rigs with 800-1200 lbs of tongue mass the forces required to RESTORE steering axle mass are 2000lb or MORE at the ball/bar/hitch region.

yes this 'stiffens' the connection, that is an UNavoidable by-product of w/d tension.

it is ALSO a USEFUL and NECESSARY consequence.

WITHOUT this 'stiffening' at the junction, both the trailer and tv would be subject to LARGER vertical movements...

at EACH axle/tire on both vehicles.

and that larger V movement results in LOADING and UNloading the axles/tires which affects steering, traction, braking and overall handling...

in a NEGATIVE and potentially dangerous way.

proper w/d should REDUCE PITCH type movements in the tv AND trailer...

the goal is NOT to make the tv<===>trailer RIGID, but to minimize loading/unloading of the axles/tires from this vertical PITCH dynamic.
_____________________

when to use "soft" bars?

IF the w/d gizmo INTEGRATEs SWAY CONTROL into the w/d bars like a DUAL CAM contraption...

the w/d bars need to FLEX 1-3 inches for the cam/notch sway feature to be useful.

so with a tv that has PLENTY of payload (well exceeding the tongue mass)...

lesser rated bars are used so they WILL FLEX enough to engage the sway dampening.

but opting for light bars so that the tv and trailer UNEQUALLY BOUNCE more is UNwise, potentially UNsafe,

even IF the ride 'feels' softer.
____________________

for folks using the pp or haha, sway control is NOT dependent on w/d bar FLEX...

for folks using friction/outriggers for sway dampening (effective or not) again w/d bar FLEX is not an issue.
____________________

now back to bouncing...

everyone run outside and bounce on the back bumper of SOMETHING...

be sure to do this while wearing a foil hat, copper bracelet and sway control undies...

please report INCHES moved and make/model year of vehicle.
____________________

lastly think about the issue of removing leafs from MODERN rear suspensions...

W/D bars force the FRONT of the tv down, and any rear LIFT is an indirect outcome of forcing the FRONT DOWN.

so IF u really wanna reduce the bar rating, the FRONT SUSPENSION needs to be altered...

AND the naked alien bouncing should be ON THE FRONT BUMPER for calibration...

cheers
2air'
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:59 PM   #92
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Also on page B-1 OM. !WARNING: Too stiff of springs can hinder the action of the weight equalizing hitch and prevent transfer of weight to the front of the vehicle.
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:00 PM   #93
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Good for our economy.

Hi, first we built an expensive trailer with an obvious defect, but not obvious to the new, blinded by the shine, buyer. [sale good for our economy]

Then when it does become obvious, we deny the claim and blame the owner. [no cost to us, good for our bottom line]

Since we deny any wrong doing, we convince all of our dealers to do the same. [watch my back]

Now the owner has to pay out of his pocket to have this defect repaired. [good for our economy]

The owner is told this will happen repeatedly if you don't change something. Owner buys different hitch. [good for our economy]

Owner told it is his responseabilty to balance the running gear not done by the factory, but will destroy your trailer in time. [centramatics] [good for our economy]

Owner still not convinced hitch will cure or prevent this from happening again. Owner buys a different tow vehicle. [good for our economy]

Owner told ride might still be too stiff, pay someone else to modify suspension on tow vehicle. [good for our economy]

Defect shows it's ugly face again. Frustrated owner sells whole set-up and buys a boat. [good for our econonmy]

Bottom line: a built in defect has helped our ailing economy. Keep spending until it hurts, we love you!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:03 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woppa 4 View Post
Page B-1 OM, ref stiff ride.Notice:Be realistic when ordering heavy duty springs.Only springs heavy enough to support your loaded vehicle(not including trailer) are necessary.Too harsh of spring rate will only shorten the life of the tow vehicle and TRAILER, and will make your journeys less enjoyable.OM 2009 30 L C. Not for sure how this principle applies to WDH.woppa4
Hi,
I am not sure what the paragraph means. It sounds to me like it is telling you to ignore the tongue weight of the trailer.
I wonder what a fully loaded trailer is. Max GVW?
Regards,
Ken
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:17 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Also on page B-1 OM. !WARNING: Too stiff of springs can hinder the action of the weight equalizing hitch and prevent transfer of weight to the front of the vehicle.
They must have decided that that statement is not correct, as I cannot find it in the 2010 manual. It seems incorrect to me also. The rear bumper will not rise as much, but the weight transfer will still take place.
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:23 PM   #96
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neither of these vague sentences are in my OMMMMMM either...

dk' has a single axle 20 footer...

it's a bambi, on a get-bigger diet.

is it even possible that the newer owners manuals are slightly specific to SIZE ?

never mind i'm dreaming again...

cheers
2air'
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:37 PM   #97
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dk's Owners Manual covers 19' through 28' Safari models.
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Old 10-28-2009, 06:51 PM   #98
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Mine ('08 Safari 25FB) has both of those sentences.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:16 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Terry, thanks for jumping in and helping identify the problem as it applies to this area. Is there a solution, or at least a way to minimize damage here as well as other weakness in Airstream structure (without parking the trailer)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluhr View Post
The photos linked to in Post #7 are of my trailer. If you read the associated posts in the Bunkhouse thread, you'll see that in our case, the cracks appeared on a Nissan Armada (a very softly sprung SUV) using a Hensley hitch. We used 1000# Draw-Tite torsion bars, which are appropriate for a trailer with 825# of tongue weight. The cracks appeared only after 34,000 miles of towing.

So in this case at least, "over-hitching" did NOT cause the cracks. However, I won't go as far as to say that overly-stiff hitches are not a problem. Since some Bunkhouse owners have seen the cracks as quickly as 5,000 miles, it is possible a stiff hitch might exacerbate the issue. I can only say that over-hitching was not a factor in OUR situation.

Given the preponderance of this symptom on this particular model of trailer, I agree a reinforcement is needed, and from my experience, solves the issue completely. We have logged another 35,000 miles since our front compartment door was repaired/reinforced, and the cracks have not gotten longer since. As a bonus, the front compartment door no longer leaks.

Note that the issue was corrected with less than $50 of parts and 4.5 hours of labor. It's a simple fix.

I agree that a round-cornered door would probably do better. I also think that a little factory-installed reinforcement behind the skin in this area would help stiffen it and prevent flex, so that this sort of problem would be less likely to occur.

But let's stay in perspective here. We have towed at least 70,000 miles (conservatively estimated) with our trailer, full-timed in it for three years, and continue to use it for 5-6 months each year. A pair of tiny 1" stress cracks is the only structural issue we've ever had with it. With proper preventative maintenance, I expect the trailer to last for decades.

And now, let's get back to the important stuff: Photos of aliens and midgets dancing on hitches.
As Rich has shown, it's a pretty simple fix, and really isn't horribly expensive, even if you have to pay for the repair. In round numbers, a few hundred bucks and a day at the dealer, and you'll be on your way again.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:26 PM   #100
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Don't mean to hijack your thread, but you got me to thinking;

What if you don't use w/d bars? What if you have a solid 10,000 lb hitch w/ a tongue weight rating of 1000 lb.'s? Is relying solely on the factory tongue too much for these trailers? Will I be looking at cracks too?

I hope you get somewhere!! If this is as wide spread as it's sounding, A/S may be looking at a class action lawsuit. Can you imagine the PR nightmare that would cause?
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