Airstream not any different than the others

[85MH325]

While it's true that there are currently a number of demographic groups buying Airstream, I'm a relic of the days when "Airstream" was synonymous with "light weight and durable", and there was nothing else remotely close in the marketplace. The new amenities are nice, but I look for comfort and towability. Corian adds neither. Nor do solid wood floors. Or really heavy upholstery and drapes, or the largest appliances. A 25', 7500 lb trailer isn't what I'm looking for. I fled to Bigfoot, and in fact have a 25 RQ that, as equipped, tips the scales at 5400 lbs. My only beef with it is it's less-than-optimal design from an aerodynamics perspective. It pulls a little harder than an Airstream. So now, we're into the weight/form trade-off. Oh... and my Bigfoot cost about half what the similarly equipped Airstream cost in '06 when I bought mine new. Otherwise, it's superior to any Airstream I've ever owned, in every other way. All of the systems are easily accessible for repairs or service, both from inside and out. There's adequate storage. I can stand in the shower. It easily accommodates a standard 80" queen mattress. It's got dual-thermopane windows and a true four-seasons insulation package.

So... I guess where Airstream has derailed itself, at least from MY perspective, is by letting too many cooks spoil the stew. If you want corian, solid wood flooring, and the largest appliances available, then by all means get one of the Thor 40' fifth wheels. If you want to tow with a Honda Accord, then get a Scamp 13. But Airstream ought to be able to produce a competitively priced, reasonably well equipped new trailer in the 25' range that is light weight and durable for about $1100 per linear foot like other manufacturers can. But they either can't, or won't. They've "optioned" the interiors to the point that they're stressing the monocoque construction through "optional" weight additions. That compromises the product, IMHO.

And, unfortunately for Airstream, other manufacturers are taking new production methods and building really nicely done trailers that weigh half what an Airstream weighs, with a LOT more storage and features, with amenities that equal or surpass the quality of what Airstream is making.

What Airstream is left with is an aluminum tube as a marketing tool, and their laurels. Unfortunately merely following the QC threads here pretty much tells anyone who cares to look that the "resting on their laurels" thing isn't working very well any more. Airstream used to rely on the repeat customer business for their new sales. Now the majority of their sales are first-time buyers, but how many actually will return for a second unit? How many of us who started with used units who would have bought new, now won't? Or worse yet, dump their Airstream and move to another brand for better reliability and/or towability?

The definitely need to get back in touch with their customer base or they won't have one any longer. It's sad, really.

Roger

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

If you are living the dream in a 10-ton, 40' fifth-wheel trailer and your Airstream is "thankfully, former," John, I'm not sure I understand your interest in posting here...

why do u CARE about his 'interest' in posting here....

he's a former 'streamer, long time community member...

and his POSTs are interesting and useful.

and HE provides some GREAT insight into HIS ownership experience

and ACTUAL USAGE of a stream vs other brands of rvs...

he's got more 'streaming credentials than a LOTTA folks in this thread.

there are MANY folks still members here who have moved ON or also own other brands and can give perspective...

and compared to some1 who has YET to camp 1 NITE in a stream, he clearly has UNDERSTANDING of many related issues.

otoh...

Originally Posted by hampstead38

I think the key is getting back to superior quality...

this is a typical MYTH promoted by old trailer newbies...

SUPERIOR QUALITY (fit/finish/details/trim/uniformity/consistency) has NEVER been a REAL a/s trademark....

ya can't get BACK to something that never happened and is largely an INVENTION to shine UP the history...

the units built in the 50s, 60s and beyond ALL had ISSUES...

and many were built by the same guys building them now...

the difference is a 40 year old unit MAY have been fixed, improved, tweaked or REBUILT to a higher standard than right off the line...

they were NOT better built but may have been WELL cared for and improved.

there have been 6-8 major changes in HOW or with WHAT streams are assembled...

but "inconsistent quality control or fit/finish or INCONSISTENCY in parts and materials...

IS THE HISTORY of AIRSTREAM production.

they have LONG been slapping together trailer and NEW models based on whatever was IN the spare parts bin...

do you know the HISTORY of bambi ??

anyone who does would be hard pressed to suggest SUPERIOR and QUALITY are used in ANY description of these units...

in basic manufacture parlance "quality" refers to meeting/conforming to the standards, tolerances and benchmarks...

ESTABLISHED by the maker for a given product/model ...

and A/S have very SLOPPY/loose/wide/varied 'standards' for these issues...

and inconsistently meets even their OWN benchmarks.

Originally Posted by hampstead38

... To me, Thor/AS is like a car company that got into the aircraft business. Most of what they know about what sells "SOB" travel trailers works against them in selling Airstreams...

again like so many of these analogies...

this one is TOTALLY out there.

thors first MAJOR brand was a/s and almost EVERYTHING th/or learned about the biz (or selling rvz) STARTED with 'streams...

while buses and slab sided rvs have gradually taken over MOST of the production, sales and MONEY in the T industry as a whole...

they STILL hold up the TINIEST brand as the shining halo for ALL the others...

the MYTH that all rv brands rely (not just thor) on for sales (freedom to travel and adventure) is traced to 'streamin' and 'streams...

Thor is essentially a HOLDING company in the vein of fortune brands...

the various PARTs of thor may be similar products, but there is essentially NO cross pollination between ANY these rv brands...

T managment essentially HOLDs each brand to a financial tether and financial accountability,

so there is commonality at the finance level...

but T/managment has ALMOST nothing to do with production/design/materials/new model decisions at A/S.

they have a VERY tight leash on the financials (which may be an issue for growth/innovation...) but that's it.

so fiberglass/slabside/bus or LESSER priced rvs do not and have never paved the course for the 'stream brand.
__________

thor isn't fleetwood or winnebago or ge'em or alcoa or ralston purina...

cheers
2air'

[hampstead38]

I agree with you both. And it is sad. As a subsidiary of Thor, I don't see Airstream making any transformational changes... and I think some major changes would be requierd to save the brand. My wish is for Thor to sell Airstream so some entrepreneurial firm... but I doubt that will occur any time soon.

Sorry, 2air, but I just can't read your posts anymore. I blame the Jesuits, the Trivium and having a wife who teaches English. So, cheers.

[Krazyjohnny]

Andy,

My last question to you then is just this....

If you have all of this experience then why can you not tell all of us here how to do these things correctly in a manual? You seem to have all of this knowledge on trailer rigging, repairs, how to, how not to, etc. I would pay for such a thing to allow me to keep my investment in tip top shape. As you stated you have done such a thing before so it should be nothing new to you.

I would love to know how to maintain and take care of my trailer as best as possible from someone with your experience.

Thanks for your devotion to the product now how about us owners. We obviously need the help.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by 85MH325

.............. I fled to Bigfoot........................
Roger

Come back and talk after you have owned it for 10 years.

I fled from Bigfoot to Airstream, because the Bigfoot was falling apart starting about year 7, not to mention that brand new, it had all kinds of Manufacturing defects.

Check this post: (The trailer is a Bigfoot 2500 21RB)

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...tml#post811172

To each his own.

I am guessing there might have been something wrong with Bigfoot's business model also. At least Airstream is still around. (yes, I know that Bigfoot is supposedly coming back)

Regards,

Ken

[boondockdad]

It's interesting how some folks urge A/S listen to the 'customer', yet have no time themselves for veracious debate

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by 85MH325

While it's true that there are currently a number of demographic groups buying Airstream, I'm a relic of the days when "Airstream" was synonymous with "light weight and durable", and there was nothing else remotely close in the marketplace. The new amenities are nice, but I look for comfort and towability. Corian adds neither. Nor do solid wood floors. Or really heavy upholstery and drapes, or the largest appliances.

I would question the extent to which any of this stuff adds weight. Corian isn't any heavier than laminate over MDF; the floor construction isn't substantially heavier than, etc. The weight changes have come from increased width, increased capacity for all the tanks, and the inclusion as standard equipment of many previously optional and owner-supplied items (air conditioning, 2nd battery, awnings, stabilizers).

2air and I were discussing the weight differences between the classic and international trailers of current manufacture on another thread and he pointed out the much more complete buildout of the classic. There is more cabinetry to divide the space and make it more useful.

I see utility in a lot of this stuff. Or comfort, if you will.

A 25', 7500 lb trailer isn't what I'm looking for. I fled to Bigfoot, and in fact have a 25 RQ that, as equipped, tips the scales at 5400 lbs. My only beef with it is it's less-than-optimal design from an aerodynamics perspective. It pulls a little harder than an Airstream. So now, we're into the weight/form trade-off. Oh... and my Bigfoot cost about half what the similarly equipped Airstream cost in '06 when I bought mine new. Otherwise, it's superior to any Airstream I've ever owned, in every other way. All of the systems are easily accessible for repairs or service, both from inside and out. There's adequate storage. I can stand in the shower. It easily accommodates a standard 80" queen mattress. It's got dual-thermopane windows and a true four-seasons insulation package.

We all have our tastes. One of the things I dislike about SOBs is the grandiose house-scale showers, beds, storage, etc. I see the 'stream as drawing its design and scale to a greater degree from yacht cabins. It's a different set of tradeoffs, and I know there are many people who prefer that "solve the problem with square (or cubic) feet" approach used by SOBs.

So... I guess where Airstream has derailed itself, at least from MY perspective, is by letting too many cooks spoil the stew. If you want corian, solid wood flooring, and the largest appliances available, then by all means get one of the Thor 40' fifth wheels. If you want to tow with a Honda Accord, then get a Scamp 13. But Airstream ought to be able to produce a competitively priced, reasonably well equipped new trailer in the 25' range that is light weight and durable for about $1100 per linear foot like other manufacturers can. But they either can't, or won't. They've "optioned" the interiors to the point that they're stressing the monocoque construction through "optional" weight additions. That compromises the product, IMHO.

Part of the problem is that the aluminum construction is inherently more expensive than the various systems used by SOBs.

And, unfortunately for Airstream, other manufacturers are taking new production methods and building really nicely done trailers that weigh half what an Airstream weighs, with a LOT more storage and features, with amenities that equal or surpass the quality of what Airstream is making.

Anyone want to start a company to build a composite, carbon-fiber RV? If we borrow what we can from the aviation industry we should be able to improve the rigidity, cut the weight, and lower costs all at once.

What Airstream is left with is an aluminum tube as a marketing tool, and their laurels. Unfortunately merely following the QC threads here pretty much tells anyone who cares to look that the "resting on their laurels" thing isn't working very well any more. Airstream used to rely on the repeat customer business for their new sales. Now the majority of their sales are first-time buyers, but how many actually will return for a second unit? How many of us who started with used units who would have bought new, now won't? Or worse yet, dump their Airstream and move to another brand for better reliability and/or towability?

The definitely need to get back in touch with their customer base or they won't have one any longer. It's sad, really.

While I see your point I tend to believe other posters who note that the quality record has never been pristine. 1960s quality wasn't that good for any product -- cars, aircraft, houses, etc -- because there was an inspection mindset and the techniques used today weren't widely understood or implemented. Byam despite his many contributions was never regarded as a past master of quality and consistency. When you couple that with the shortcomings of the materials available then (we forget that basic things like insulation for electric wire and rubber diaphragms for water pumps have improved considerably) I'm not sure I buy the idea of classic Airstream as a pillar of quality.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I would question the extent to which any of this stuff adds weight. Corian isn't any heavier than laminate over MDF; the floor construction isn't substantially heavier than, etc. The weight changes have come from increased width, increased capacity for all the tanks, and the inclusion as standard equipment of many previously optional and owner-supplied items (air conditioning, 2nd battery, awnings, stabilizers).

Hi, don't take this personally, but I keep hearing about "MDF" or partical board used in cabinets, Etc in Airstreams, especially the cheaper models. [like my Safari] My Safari has all plywood construction, every where. Although my Safari also has a plywood floor and some models were built with OSB floors, I'm not talking about that. People, who on this forum, stated that their trailer had partical board "MDF" in them, later found out it was actually plywood. Some-one who has proof and pictures of "MDF" ie broken cabinet pieces from an Airstream trailer, please show me. As of now I'm a non believer.

As for your statement, "Corian isn't any heavier than laminate over MDF" this statement is true, but not justifiable in any Airstream I have seen yet. I need to be shown, because I'm moving to Missouri. [not really moving]

[pmclemore]

Corian pleases me when I touch it. I like the corian sink covers and stove covers - provides substantial counter space when we host our elegant martini parties (cocktail dresses and jackets, please). Oh - and the mirrors everywhere; you look mahvelous, dahling.

Patrick

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

As for your statement, "Corian isn't any heavier than laminate over MDF" this statement is true, but not justifiable in any Airstream I have seen yet. I need to be shown, because I'm moving to Missouri. [not really moving]

Hi Bob,
I am having trouble figuring out what you are saying.
I think you said Corian is not heavier, but you see no reason for it to be used. Am I correct?

Ken

[hampstead38]

While I see your point I tend to believe other posters who note that the quality record has never been pristine. 1960s quality wasn't that good for any product -- cars, aircraft, houses, etc -- because there was an inspection mindset and the techniques used today weren't widely understood or implemented. Byam despite his many contributions was never regarded as a past master of quality and consistency. When you couple that with the shortcomings of the materials available then (we forget that basic things like insulation for electric wire and rubber diaphragms for water pumps have improved considerably) I'm not sure I buy the idea of classic Airstream as a pillar of quality.

Quality, like deprivation, is relative. I spent time in some seriously crappy travel trailers in the 70s and 80s. One--the Aristocrat--has become the stuff of family legend. Whatever its flaws, the '67 Overlander is better built than anything I used "back in the day."

I own a '66 Dodge D200. A 2010 Ram 2500 is a much nicer automobile, superior in every respect to the old D200. For all of its flaws, though, it is dirt simple and tougher than boot leather. I have no doubt it will be on the road in 25 years.

Whatever it's shortcomings, there are still a fair number of vintage Airstreams on the road. I think this says something about them as compared to other travel trailers of the same era. My point is that if the 60s Airstream was better than the 60s SOB, why can't the 10s Airstream be better than the 10s SOB?

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by w7ts

Hi Bob,
I am having trouble figuring out what you are saying.
I think you said Corian is not heavier, but you see no reason for it to be used. Am I correct?

Ken

Hi, Ken.........No.

What I am saying is that MDF / partical board is very heavy and that Laminate on top of MDF, would or could, weigh about the same as Corian counter tops. [makeing it even in weight] But since Airstream did not use MDF on the counter top [in my trailer] this weight comparison is not valid. And that the Corian counter tops do add addition weight to these trailers.

Clear or muddy?

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, Ken.........No.

What I am saying is that MDF / partical board is very heavy and that Laminate on top of MDF, would or could, weigh about the same as Corian counter tops. [makeing it even in weight] But since Airstream did not use MDF on the counter top [in my trailer] this weight comparison is not valid. And that the Corian counter tops do add addition weight to these trailers.

Clear or muddy?

Perfectly Clear Now.

If you were asking why is Corian justifiable in an Airstream, I had a ready Answer:

Because my wife says so.

That's good enough for me.

Regards,

Ken

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

.................................
My point is that if the 60s Airstream was better than the 60s SOB, why can't the 10s Airstream be better than the 10s SOB?

In my opinion they are better.

If not, I would have been pretty stupid to pay what I did for my Airstream, if there was something better out there for me.

Perhaps, you do think I am stupid.

I think I know what may be causing this lack of agreement. Possibly, you are doing something that is quite common today. That is, taking your opinions and beliefs of what is good, bad, better or worse, etc. and projecting them on the rest of us, and then wondering why we just don't get it.

regards,


Ken

[Krazyjohnny]

And still no reply.....

[bob34787]

why can't this thread just die already. If you like your Airstream great, if you don't get rid of it and move on.

[SilverRanger]

Originally Posted by bob34787

why can't this thread just die already. If you like your Airstream great, if you don't get rid of it and move on.

I love my Airstream(s), and also think this thread has been very informative.
Move on to where?
Why?

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by w7ts

Come back and talk after you have owned it for 10 years.

I fled from Bigfoot to Airstream, because the Bigfoot was falling apart starting about year 7, not to mention that brand new, it had all kinds of Manufacturing defects.

Check this post: (The trailer is a Bigfoot 2500 21RB)

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...tml#post811172

To each his own.

I am guessing there might have been something wrong with Bigfoot's business model also. At least Airstream is still around. (yes, I know that Bigfoot is supposedly coming back)

Regards,

Ken

Actually, I have never really understood the appeal of or the market for the 21' Bigfoot. It's as heavy as a 25', but has less walk-around room than the 17' trailers. The axles were placed too far forward which designed-in some real sway issues... and the interiors were just plain cramped.

The 25', on the other hand, is nicely balanced with a nice mixture of living area and storage. And, I also know that Bigfoot had some QC issues on some of their trailers... they put out too many units too quickly for what their facilities were capable of. They had some real issues about the time you bought yours, especially in the pickup campers. Fortunately, mine suffers from none of those problems as most of those problems were resolved by '06. Apparently many of the issues were directly related to just a couple of employees. I found that interesting.

I've had Airstreams for over twenty years though... so my experience with Airstream is with more than one unit. There are horror stories of common ailments in Airstreams by year that have to do with materials used, adhesives, and so forth as well as the workmanship itself. Interestingly, probably more than any other trailer manufacturer, both part of the appeal of Airstream and it's weak points is that each trailer is pretty much a one-off custom job, even though they build many of the same units. They're all hand-assembled, unlike automobile production using robots. So tolerances suffer, there are mistakes in a assembly... and things get missed.

I don't think that Airstream quality is any worse today than it's ever been, I think that the general quality of higher-end units has improved around Airstream. The public's expectations have risen with the QC improvements in almost every other product they buy for premium dollars.

So, we're going on year 4 with the Bigfoot. I haven't found anything else out there I like as well... or anything in the same weight range with similar features. So I may well be able to report back at year 10 and tell you my impressions then. We had *seven* punch-list items to be repaired on the trailer when we bought it, and half of those were from being on display and the public going through the trailer. The dealer was able to fix all of them in about two hours and get us on the road (and that included installing the new Dual-Cam). We had an excellent, reputable dealer, and so far the trailer has performed as expected. We'll see if that continues!

Roger

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by bob34787

why can't this thread just die already. If you like your Airstream great, if you don't get rid of it and move on.

Hi, what fun would that be? Keep the ball rolling. Nothing wrong with constructive criticism. I like to read all of the poster's comments whether I agree or not.

[bob34787]

OK, let it run as long as you feel a need for entertainment, I for one will not be back.